you're watching our t.v. lar from moscow here's a recount of all our top stories cheering in the killing of one man while ignoring the deaths of thousands of civilians in libya alice point out the problems of the u.s. media's approach to get off his demise about says leaders new rules also stay quiet on how they're going to rebuild infrastructure destroyed by civil war and make those drops. on saving the euro are the risk is a crucial meeting of european finance ministers as council the head of one's a z u summit it's cast doubt over the prospects of a solution be found to be deepening debt crisis. police have clashed with hundreds of anti corporate demonstrators in the us city of oakland crowds stick to the streets to protest earlier arrests and the forced removal of tents or riot squads use tear gas and rubber bullets to disperse the gathering. and also

a new study says the u.s. new secret uranium based weapons in iraq causing congenital illnesses that increases in cancer in innocent civilians the report found a new generation of arms were deployed by american forces in the notorious battle of flu shot seven years ago. and i've talked of a show peter lavelle asks his guests what kind of country libya will be called post following the nato backed rebels do stay with us for that. wealthy british scientists. sometimes tirelessly. markets by night scandal. find out what's really happening to the global economy in the kinds of reports on r.t. . you can. start.

following the welcome to cross talk i'm peter a little you know spacious beginnings libya's national transitional council has announced the country's liberation from the could garfield just cater ship what kind of country libya will now become is anything but clear will it be ruled under islamic law and will the rule of law prevail in the wake of kentucky skilling and is national unity an illusion with so many factions vying for power. it can. start. to cross like libya's future i'm joined by daniel sower in washington he's a professor e.o. lecturer at john hopkins school of advanced international studies also in washington we have paul corning he is a foreign correspondent for the globe and mail and in new york we go to ted rall he is a journalist political cartoonist and author of the anti-american manifesto all right

gentlemen this is cross talk that means you can jump in anytime you want to know very much encourage it but first what are libya's prospects moving forward well you as you mentioned in the beginning the road ahead of libya is anything but clear and i dare say it is all because of the close city to play city which has a company of the death of moammar gadhafi as well as the entirely been campaign as the media continues to chew over the coolest details of the post leader's death we're thinking back to the history of libya's ties with the west. which revealed that democracy and humanitarianism were really on the agenda from a time when kids off it was branded the mad dog of the middle east to a period when his relations with the west warmed and all of the alleged sins were absolved by pricey defense of oil deals this is what senator mccain had to say about libya only to hear is ago ties between the united states. and not long after libya had established partnerships with a whole slew of western leaders the libyans rose in defiance of qaddafi's rule and

the west flashed the responsibility to protect card and launched in a dimension in support of that uprising seven months later of the mission is complete the manhunt for gadhafi drawing to a close by these very very balls that the west has helped to larn we came. god. now there's much talk about the future that's the basis libya where there will be able to preserve its domestic unity elect a government that can show itself to be different from the barbarity which has marked the rebels' recent actions and finally avoid being doled out to foreign stakeholders the very many competing elements within the t.n.c. a different political philosophies i hope there's a play there to the democratic way otherwise the alternative is some ghastly descent into war when you say it was the hate for qaddafi which coalesced libya's fractious forces perhaps that is for the fear of seeing the country apart but then to see chair of diligently a promise on sunday night we be under the law of sharia and we'll just have to see

how can just about democracy well let's talk about democracy first i want to go to ted ted what kind of democracy could you possibly make in the libya that is just offered a civil war like this it hardly has any state institutions whatsoever. well obviously anybody who claims to be able to predict the future of this new regime would just be telling lies and making up stories but that said you know this is going to be a for medical challenge we're not even really sure if democracy is what the t.n.c. has in mind now that they have taken power and certainly they're prepared off the origins suggest that it's not necessarily in the cards but certainly even if they do they are serious about forming a coalition of all the various factions and tribes and political factions that predated the end existed during the forty two year reign of market there's no telling where this is going to go it is just so hard to cobble together such of

vast country and i think a lot of people are unaware of exactly how big libya is and how fractured it is it's not going to be in a zakk parallel to iraq but i think we can see certain parallels ok paula how does a country like libya that really doesn't have really many state functions i mean if it was all based on one man and his family for forty two years i mean don't they have to work on state building before they start building democracy or can you build a democracy without us you know. no i don't think it can and i think perhaps there's a tendency in. the media and outside observers to kind of see democracy is of gets installed or built almost overnight in our societies in transition even in the twenty first century that that's a. difficult arduous process and at this stage libya needs a sort of civic civil society piece. the beginnings of economic

renaissance democracy maybe a peace and it may be a slowly growing piece that starts early but that there is no likelihood of an immediate democracy any more than there's a likelihood of an immediately functioning economy this is going to take a long time progress is going to be slow it will be third there will be set backs the nightmare scenarios exist as well ok well that isn't so very optimistic daniel if i can go to you do you think about building a democratic state with respecting the rights of all with this alleged it looks very clear from the video that it's being all it's been put on the you tube and elsewhere of the murder of khadafi i mean this is a national transition council getting off to a good footing there. i'm much more hopeful than my colleagues are i've been in libya i've talked with the libyans they're not going to accept another dictator. i don't think there's any reason why they should accept another dictator it is a long hard arduous road to democracy but they've laid out

a road map in their constitutional framework document the it's much clearer than what had been laid out in tunisia which just successfully held its first elections it's much clearer than what has been laid out in egypt the current leadership has made it clear that it will not run for future office and frankly libya has vast resources not only the oil and gas in the ground but the money in western banks khadafi is going to finance the next regime in libya so there are no guarantees here let me be clear this is a long and arduous road but i think there's a good chance that libya can go down that road it should do it carefully it should do it slowly it shouldn't rush anything but you know the killing of coffee from western eyes was extremely brutal and murderous and

a legal as well probably under international law by you what did you mean you know you evaluate is been illegal is well i don't i don't think that you can i don't think you can hold your friends ishmael counsel responsible for what was brutal. murder and made in fact be a war cry but i mean let's let's be clear here this is this is the end of a conflict and it's pretty clear that. there are lots of the fighting factions who are only barely within the chain of command so i mean i think to focus on without defending what. seems to be a murder and a work ride but this time how to taint the entire transitional effort with it's unfortunate it's terrible. and the murder of child care so one would also it's probably quite convenient isn't it if i go to you kate i mean i guess we won't hear

a lot about lockerbie we won't hear a lot about rendition and we won't hear about other things that the bush administration and obama administration had to do with the war on terror but the passage of it's apples and oranges i mean leads me to think the good thing wally lewis is going to review will say it's great stuff forget the role of the united states in this in what essentially was the murder of could alfie after all this was a drug american drone plane that attacked his convoy alongside a french war warplane and these two and so really this was a joint french nato u.s. murder could be the fact that he was technically alive but he got out as he scrambled out of his convoy hardly negates the role of the united states in his murder and he would not have been murdered had that airstrike not occurred so this is this is a this goes part and parcel to the assassination of osama bin laden in pakistan. the obama administration's enemies have

a way of just being disappeared and dumped into anonymous graves and the asli you can't help but ask yourself if there are not a bunch of inconvenient questions that would be asked at a war crimes trial at the hague that perhaps the big powers would rather not see asked what do you think about that paul you could probably do these times trial ok paul first and then you'll call the first and then when you were tara cleo you want you pose that sort of thing rhetorical you all you want you could say you know could actually it still be in power if there hadn't been a united nations security council mandate i mean but but what you're trying to do what you're trying to do is hang on what you're trying to do is so. the entire process by stringing together a bunch of things and saying you know. no the straight shouldn't is somehow responsible for the deaths of all these people and you can make that argument but you're not going to find any support from going on it again you know you want to

jump in there but i mean a drone plane is not a son i think i think this argument about this calling of the killing of khadafi the. the military action against his convoy is murder is just nonsense it's not in any body's terms i be glad to see you don't but don't throw some strings are designed you know if you can still drones are designed to kill it shows a nation there was no to clear our designs little people and they are military was not at war with libya and we can assassination that was a mistake a foreign leader who could have been captured alive. doing repairs on that and you . i beg to differ i'll beg to differ on that subject i just don't think there's any sign that there's a war crime involved here i don't think it's murder i think it's it's part of an ugly process that we call war the murder was in the ambulance so far as i can tell

by a young libyan and you know maybe he should be he should be held responsible for that but i just don't think that the attack on the convoy days ago even the selfish never the big time and i i don't believe anybody will ever prosecuted that way. all right gentlemen we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on libya and stay with our team. and if. you. won't come to the join us on a trip to a magical land where tessa sites are just plum old anymore for school children to

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a little too much we're talking about libya after gadhafi. military taking. the lead. right i'm going to go to go back to paula in washington on the country's awash with arms right now is this a major concern for you as we see some kind of civil society state building going on because you know it's a lot easier to pick up a gun then let it go and fussin with these so much to so many people disenfranchised for so many decades they have power right now and the power in numbers and weapons this is could going to take a long time to disarm this country if it's ever going to happen at all yeah i think that's very true and i think there's two elements to. this sort of fact everybody in libya is armed. the first one is as you say there's a you know unless people are are satisfied quickly and that's hard to do then it's very easy to bring dissatisfaction people put up with you know shortages of food

and water and electricity and all the rest of it in the middle of the uprising in the rebellion but very very quickly there will be there mans for normality and in the absence of normality in the absence of power in the absence of salaries in the absence of that sort of thing it will be very very easy to have sort of armed factions taking on. each other trying to see saying that that's aspect one and that's dangerous enough the second one is a far more difficult. danger to measure and that is good effie's arsenals included some very modern very sophisticated weaponry in particular thousands maybe as many as twenty thousand surface to air shoulder fired missiles and that of course is the is the. weapon of choice for any radical group anywhere it any terrorist organization the ability to take down civilian airliners and or military aircraft with these shoulder fired weapons is

hugely very dangerous. and nobody knows where they are already if you want to jump in there daniel. yes they did day and i think it's very important to look at the record here and the record of the national transitional council is that it successfully made the arms disappear from being guys see within a couple of months of the revolution there and the way it did that was to was to ensure people security i was in tripoli last month there were a lot of guns on the street but there were also some policemen and the situation was really settling down and went to a big celebration of martyrs square lots of women and children out in the evening for that celebration the way you get rid of the guns in the hands of the public is to ensure security and i think the n.p.c. has there are a good record on that the question of this. history was very new so much right on

that all right tell you want to jump in there just basically we saw the same exact situation in afghan. we saw the same exact situation in afghanistan where. everybody has weaponry certainly it's possible to build a civil society but a heavily armed society the united states has eight guns for every man woman and child in it and yet you know the streets are not well are not running with blood so clearly it's possible but that said we're talking about it the basic need first law and order is the one for the new libyan government and that if they can provide back then they're going to be able to move on to the next step which is rebuilding the economy and really building a political civil society and maybe some form of representative democracy later comes later but again it's there and people are still waiting for law and order ten years after the invasion that's the kind of thing but they don't want to see in

libya oh my do you think nato still has a role here i mean as a result of the united nations security council nine hundred seventy three chose a side in the civil war the national transitional council do you think that it is national transition council in its current form gets in trouble that nato will continue to support it against its a factions that could rise up in the next two weeks or months in libya because like we've all agreed this country is awash with weapons and there's a lot to fight for and one of them is oil. well you know i don't think so i don't actually think there's a nato role there and i think you'd be a mistake of nato thought there was one but i do think there's a role for libya's neighbors and for nations in the area i live is going to need lots of help there's no question that this country is rich and it has the resources to provide. excellent living in a fine economy for its people but that's not going to happen overnight and it's going to be fundamentally important for other arab nations and european nations and

america frankly to be there and be able to provide the kind of everything from technical support as you get oil fields running again to. to perhaps aid in setting up courts and civil society well you know there well you know women for house and you know the safety and trying to build nations around the world and can you give me one example where works why would work in libya well you know there are places where it works and i'm not just talking about. if you look at places like east timor where frankly the australians took the lead it's slow it takes a long time people need to sort of dig in for a generation they need not to be seen is interfering they need to help you need to not do the kind of things like we've seen in haiti where i outside countries bail out every five years even though they're mad and i agree they're going to get it if there was nobody there is money it is going to be you know plenty of examples where

it's doesn't work there are plenty of examples where it doesn't work but there's no point being just sort of miserably pessimistic either you can look at the place where he has worked why should be pessimistic there's so much oil there go ahead ted i mean it's worth fighting hard. it's it's well it's hard to go in iran being pessimistic you're usually right when you are so it's worked out for me for a long time. unfortunately you know i think that you know going back to the original question i think that the nato coalition would not hold together for that for a mission that would involve siding with one faction in a civil war it's one thing to to do what they did at this point to try to see to let the t.n.c. seize power essentially replaying what happened in the fall of two thousand and one in afghanistan when the when nato essentially served as the de facto air force for the northern alliance which allowed the northern alliance to seize kabul and take over the country but this is exactly what they did in two in two thousand and

eleven in libya but we're not going to see that seems easy that's linear that's something that the french and the and the italians and the americans can get behind but once the spoil for the oil starts it's going to be a whole different matter ok let's bring up another issue that a lot of people talk about is lots of t.v. interest right thing and i literally you can imagine i want to talk about these lawmakers a card that everyone likes to bring up. in connections to al qaeda except maybe you'll go ahead. i think the interesting thing about the state building process in libya is that it's being led by libyans who haven't asked for a needle help who will accept some help from the europeans for america countries from the united states but they are the ones designing is they're pushing that program and to me this makes an enormous difference it seems to me would be uncertain the lead you have a much better chance for success than if this were an external intervention ok i

mean how do you feel about that members of the how long will that last economically ok well i was i'd like to look at really the the transition council itself because i mean there's still a lot of really murky figures there i mean people there don't have very good attitudes towards the american cia because of rendition i mean ties alleged ties to al qaeda and what you know what will be the flavoring of islam in the country it moves forward i mean we heard on sunday they know there's going to be a lot of peppering of that maybe that's just to keep people on board but i mean is this building a democracy or you know these people going to be elected i mean where is the vetting process here i mean khadafi is gone fine but where do we go from here what do you think about that. preventing process is called the elections in a revolution you don't want the valley to be kind of. in a revolution or in a revolution there is no there is no election whoever strongest and manage to kills their opponents is that effective leader so whether if these people are ruffins or

not worst the libyan people are stuck with them the real question is going to happen in the next stage economically you know libya is a rich country if and when it can extract its high valued crude oil out but if it doesn't have the capital to do it themselves which it doesn't seem like they will they are going to need to rely on foreign oil concerns leave the french or the italians who have most of the concessions band got involved essentially as a quid pro quo in this conflict so that's where the contour the problem of its foreign exploitation influence confidence comes into play as we saw in iraq going back to the one nine hundred twenty s. and that if i'm the thing is that as long as libyans are in charge things night be ok but libyans aren't going to be in charge if they can't control their own resources but you can you leave it so far do you feel that you know i mean. you know so far the libyan people with you know plenty mistakes him plenty of

difficulties to a very long summer is this sort of a ragtag bunch of fighters got themselves organized and got themselves together and you're quite correct with the lie that he is a clan of data to support right exe well as well apt absolutely absolutely and and just as the american revolution had a lot of outside support too you can try and smear the libyan air first before it gets under way but the reality. of the libyan efforts so far the libyan people have handled this very well i think they've got an even chance of continuing to handle it well. it's premature to prejudge them i think i think history is a very i think i think it's history shows a lot of reason to be worried i mean you can't really take over another country with foreign assistance and then claim that you have full power and look at the

northern alliance in afghanistan to touch he committed factions took over but they've never been able to close the deal the same thing happened now with shia dominated iraq installed by the united states you know history shows that really in civil war you have to let the factions the the indigenous factions fight things out to a conclusion and that did not happen here there was a lot of foreign interference and so we don't know if the benghazi based rebels can govern this country and bring in and form some form of coalition that will be able to govern it gentlemen we've run out of here there's little if you just start. many thanks my guest today in washington and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are keep you next time remember cross-talk rules.

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