we're einstein's theory in the laws of physics no longer apply and we're big can always be bigger still be afraid she might enjoy the ride on signals you hear on our cheek. and welcome back you're watching our feet with us let's take a look at your top headlines in an interview with russian television syrian president bashar al assad and one question leaders not to meddle in his country's domestic affairs claiming weapons were being smuggled to protesters from abroad where it's come as international pressure mounts on damascus with the arab league calling for an end to the violence against anti regime protesters. and nato led essential department you have been concerned to rise over a decade gun problem as former rebels fight for power and arms control and colonel

gadhafi may have gone but his most influential son saif al islam friends to spill the beans on western leaders backroom deals if you get is that according to. israeli airstrikes on gaza at least ten palestinians dead as officers goes against the government's excessive military spending thousands of israelis took to the streets of tel aviv this week to demand authorities to put welfare before the. police and in the denver there's a round up of u.s. cities authorities lose patience with occupy wall street protesters detaining dozens and posing a curfew and seizing belongings. i don't know for me but my colleague will be here thirty minutes of the full look at your news now as the world's population hits seven billion hitter lavelle asks his guests if they are simply too many of us are t's crossed out.

can't list still. listening to. live. below in a welcome across the country or little as the world reaches still another population benchmark the debate continues as to whether the planet can sustain such levels as well as the future of global consumption is the world overpopulated and if it is what should be done about it. listen to the list live. cross talk population levels i'm joined by babatunde or see if you mean in berlin he's the executive director of united nations population fund in washington we crossed him arthur madison campbell sees a lecturer at the school of public health at the university of california berkeley and in gainesville we have matthew conley he's a professor of history i columbia university all right folks this is crosstalk that means you can jump in anytime you want i very much encourage it but first musher

where does the world stand right now at seven billion people and still counting today's world population is that well what it was in one nine hundred sixty seven and seven times what it was only ten centuries ago by mid century a projected growth that figure at nine point three billion people concerns are mounting that such sustained expansion of the humankind threatens to run dry this planet's already overstretched resources. the business as usual scenario predicts that humanity will be using renewable resources and land at the rate of two planets each year by twenty thirty and just over two point eight planets each year by twenty fifty in addition to medical progress and higher agricultural productivity fertility is thought to be the main driver of population interesting re enough worldwide population continues to grow despite the fact that the growth rate itself has been steadily declining the reason for this is the fact that there is still more people living in countries with a higher birthrate these countries are also some of the developing world poorest

such as niger some. afghanistan and congo which means more people born into dire poverty the seven billionth of a citizen will be born into war go counter contributions we have potential for millions us to starve social and economic equity as the crux of the phenomenon because not only does overpopulation work the hardest against the planet's most vulnerable groups but it is the developed countries that are currently enjoying the biggest share of the resources this has led many to argue that altering consumption patterns in tandem with improving access to family planning are essential elements of the population discourse but then again are really facing crisis all that's going to be my first question thank you very much for that much my first question for matthew is the world facing a population crisis and you know i don't want to train my age too much here but this is i've been hearing this for forty years so you know i'm going all the way

back to like you know the well there was a book in one thousand nine hundred the age sixty nine population bomb you know we've been every decade we've been warned that you know the put their population has been growing too fast for the world's resources but it continues on if i go first to you matthew. well that's right peter you can almost set your clock to it it reminds me a little bit about some of the preachers that we have here in the united states i happen to be in florida and florida is full of preachers who will tell you that the world is coming to an end and you might even believe them it's they were predicting that last year before and ten years ago and twenty years ago they're kind of figures you just heard with the same kinds of figures that people used thirty years ago forty years ago you know according to the club of rome we would have been using five planets now so if you believe those kinds of numbers and sure you should be frightened but if you want to focus on the real problem here you have to get past the numbers what do you think about that martha i mean it's a seven billion people is a lot of people on the planet but i'd like to point that out is it's someone inform

me before i did a program that if you took all of those people put them shoulder to shoulder you could fit them into the city of los angeles so that kind of puts it in a different perspective people take up a lot of space however because they also need food they. are is very important water is poured you wouldn't be able to live in los angeles in fact if you crowded everybody in there but i think that it's dangerous to say that we should let go of the numbers and look at other things the numbers are extremely important in terms of what the population is going to be like or what life is going to be like even thirty years ok if i can go to you know our guest in berlin but today i mean it really gets down to maybe not numbers but what's a good high profile lifestyle that people want to be able to have and if we look at the rich north in the rich west they consume most of the world's resources and we have emerging middle classes all around the the developing world the emerging world

and they want to live life their european and american careers isn't that really the issue here is how you distribute resources divided by seven billion nine billion ten billion and so forth. i think he goes beyond i think the real concerns in some developing parts of the world where population is growing faster economies can sustain and i think that you know if he is working with those countries though that will be able to ensure that when young girls to take advantage of new technologies that are available education and ensure that they can be empowered to be choices in their lives to have children going forward so it is first about demographic transition in those countries but beyond that i agree with you that the level of course the level of consumption of this point in time is also suitable and we was in korea developing countries to adopt

a different concern from some of those who are going to have it ok with it if same polynomial with a lot of people still get rich western need to change its consumption matter you want to jump in there go ahead i did yeah it's because i was curious to ask public tender if the un f.d.a. would also help empower those women who'd like to have more children instead of fewer i mean in africa it's more than fifteen percent of women who are aren't able to have children because they're very easily treatable and even preventable diseases reproductive tract infections and so on so what's a priority for. this year and actually and i'll help. you know the issue about. reproductive health is we go beyond just family we provide services to ensure that everyone can have the child where

she wants to have it and dismiss and so for those who have him how many women is a year and population fund helping with infertility how many women are receiving infertility treatment the way they're receiving hundreds of millions of contraception from the u.n. do you have a figure for that. quite a number i do or how would i be right in saying it's zero is it your home but to the extent that we treat sexually transmitted infections we provide expertise to assure that did you not get to that point because most of the already talk about actually do so far from to go disease or a gentleman such a woman on the program i guess or some of this tomorrow and just being going with. the obviously have a difference of opinion here got hard to. look after and i think i think that looking at infertility is missing the point completely there are more women in africa who want to use contraception but can't get it then there are then there are

women who are using contraception and the need for family planning is absolutely huge in africa and other very poor countries too and where does he. have the tools to fifty million women wild why did five and they're not getting it and i think that there has to be about the women who would like all children those you know those you know them as well. matthew jumpy. i'd like to know you know if you're keeping count of the women who'd like to have children and can't because in fact that's the specter of the future i mean you're counting seven billion people and it just so happens to fall on how we were in the maze in coincidence i mean i think you want us all to believe that this is some kind of horror story but for some women for many families in the real trouble as they see our children this is. surely this focus like a laser beam writes on this drug over the i'm going to have a child where she wants it. and we. are working with the

all the other girls are just used to ensure that another child when she wants to of it and i think that these not holding the right. martha are jumping ahead matthew you are missing the point here the point here is population on a very huge scale and we are headed toward great trouble if this if the world goes up to sixteen billion people and stead of six billion going poorly against thirteen billion by any end of this century that is the high level of the united nations population division if we could be anywhere between sixteen and sixty million people at the end of this century twenty one hundred and so you're looking. and years into the future martha. anyhow yours and the future. nothing you read on a story and historians can even agree on what happened ninety years ago but you

have crystal clarity about the world and twenty one hundred these kinds of landings are so easy to project really radical and in many cases wasteful spending on the wrong priorities and that's a point i want to. know martha was released but martha replied you cannot know that martha replied go ahead but it is extremely important to recognize what we're headed for here when i was poor and we had we were taking fish out of the ocean it is taken out eight times that amount. that we have eight times the amount that we had then what's happening to the fisheries what's happening to the forests what's happening to agriculture where people have enough to eat it is very very difficult even if we reach nine point three billion people by twenty fifty that is a serious problem because it means we're headed toward the medium to higher levels of numbers of people on the planet later i think we're heading for a catastrophe in fact if we do not slow particular under oath that is the most

important thing that's our. first yes i think that i think it is important to make the point clear that this is also about this is about trying to ensure that everyone can have a child when she wants to how good. she can access all digital it is good and shows that she can have the way she wants to have it without because i think it is the right let's go with that and we are going to want to talk to. the technology of sound. would that include ultrasound is getting if they choose to have boys instead of girls no no has to know everything on unity how they saw it and all right now not only should they just say we're going to go to a short break to come after less sure but continue our discussion on global

population stay with r.t. . if you want to. start. would be soo much brighter if you move on from the stupid question. who screams totty don't come. to

kick. start. welcome back to cross talk i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're talking about the world's population. kicking. ok matthew before we end of day for part of the program to see you word came up coersion and now in this is i want to talk about is that we look at population decline in the rich countries of the of the of the north and of the west because you can certainly have countries in europe that are dealing with that issue and then we have some countries in the world that have their growth is much faster than they can sustain what role do governments play in this what role does the united nations play in this because you know what kind of incentives do you give people to have more children and what kind of incentives you give people not to have children because they're from countries have different experiences and different expectations i'd like to point out as well and that goes back to the other c word

in this program and that's consumption. that's right peter and if i leave you with one idea it's the fact that we don't have a population crisis we have a consumption crisis there are real challenges from over using resources for depleting fisheries and so on but if you want to see where the problems are it's not from looking at whether there are millions of people starving the fact is there are but it's not because there's too much or too little food in the world quite the opposite you know this more than four pounds of food per person on this planet and when people go hungry it has nothing to do with population it has everything to do with power and inequality and unfortunately for too many years for decades international non-governmental organizations allied themselves with wealthy countries told poor people in poor countries that if they were poor if their people were starving it's because they kept having children they had too many babies and that's a legacy we're still living with that's the reason why in so many countries including

nigeria i made the country about returned as origin that is a country where many women don't trust or like i do not desire you because i think i think that i think that you should you should talk about experiences that you know about what's on the ground for forty years as a doctor and i can tell you that the lowest quintile the most societies than the developing world have children that they cannot look after it is not just about feeding it is a housing is about what is or it's about clothing is believed to be to look after these children and also what i write and chelsea king lou when i was asked how many highly says to this i think it was in your footsteps this is to me those choices which are the ones and if you asked them the rather less than they have ok mind that is the number as it was this is what i see is this is this

a political crisis not a population crisis i mean maybe a draft and look at some of the math you just had. i say because there there is a dearth of food in the world but there is starvation there's a there are people living in mass of poverty but there's the world of the planet is very rich i mean what matthew is getting at is it's a political problem because of inequality not because we have too many people. i think it is a very much a crisis about population itself but he is right that it is there that consumption is very important we consume much too much but this is a huge unmet need for family planning but unfortunately there is no unmet need for wanting to consume less it's vertical much harder to deal with but we must do that . there are probably ten day is absolutely right but there are very large numbers of women who have children who have babies at pregnancies that they do not want we know this because of the huge number of unsafe abortions for example in many

countries where women just are desperate not to have another child we should not have could worsen there is no need for coercion at all and there should be no incentives by the way incentives are not necessary what's really important is letting women have the means and the information they need to be able to manage whether and when to have a child but you think about it. so you agree with that believe that that is what we should that is the rights that we should we should do to ensure though protect yes of course which is in the world but in. boston to return the falkland trees access to food access to space the you know could see exist everywhere but when you when you take a particular national state or you look at it the last quinto of of of those periods i actually don't have access to these things. you want to hold lists they

do have and we should make it possible for them. to be able to do so but if you factor in equally matthew i would absolutely agree with martha about to turn to when they say that every woman should be able to have the children that she wants but what i would add is simply that if the family friendly community has always focused on those women this don't want the children they have. i would like to have fewer children than they have but i'd like to know is when they're going to wake up and realize that there are hundreds of millions of women who are having difficulty having children or would like to have some help and in fact the biggest countries in the world china and india especially are countries where yes there are still incentives so-called and not only that but there are disincentives there are severe penalties in china and for forty years here the u.n. population are thirty years the u.n. population fund has spent in china so i'd like to know over all these years you know this whole time the population fund has been claiming that they are ending the one child policy why is it after thirty years thirty years of u.n.

support why is it we start a one child policy in china when i see you and finally going to speak out and say there's a lot of the artists who are supposedly. yes they give thirty years to work and this is the wrong information we have been there in the states in which you have worked we have been able to work with this to authorities to liberalize what is up with that and we continue to work with the government of china we ought paused to watch thirty years brought so when you put it under a lot of our addictions i was in a filing it and i see. the truth of the matter is that we. believe that you know a country as large as we should not leave it alone we should call to the advocates for the rights based approach to say you'd rather who would rather be advice. you would rather help china's population control program which you say is having

the effect of liberalizing our population control program and you like to do it over the years but are you going to be there for another thirty years this is a very good decision to be in here i was you know the celebrity. market is going to jumpy and right now going. good. the name the word poverty hazard here is your idea it's very very important matthew wait please know what we really haven't looked at poverty at all where i we cannot find any country that has gotten out of poverty while maintaining a high average family size except for a few oil rich states this is very important what really means is that people cannot get out of poverty they cannot be educated they cannot the health system cannot catch up with the fact that there are many more children born here than here before in the high fertility countries is exceedingly important to make sure that

women do not have pains they do not want to have so that they can give the advantages to their own children that they otherwise cannot do i think i will visit if it was a problem that we have the solution of that when a concert is that of taking women said because of the seriously. to be able to make choices for their lives they have come out not only out of poverty but also girls with demographic transition they become more prosperous i mean it is above and i think that this is what we continue to talk to the rights to it as sure that we have access to information a person choice ok matthew you want to jump in there because what i think all the things i'm kind of sure you serious about is that if we do all the right things with family planning then what kind of population will the planet finally settle on is there is populations go through this the demographic transition because what

number do we get out with where we are sustainable for the world's resources. well it's a very good question and facts economists not just economists many others have been debating this for centuries it's been a discussion and a debate over centuries about how many people the earth can support and over the centuries are some of said that the earth can support more than two billion or perhaps it's four maybe six or maybe eight and the fact is it's not just about the number of people on this planet it's what kind of people we will be there you know if we're going to continue wasting our resources if americans for instance are going to continue throwing out more chicken that is eaten in the entire indian subcontinent there are no that can't go on but that's why i would say that the real issue here is not the numbers of people on this planet especially not the numbers of poor people on this planet because they're not the ones the countries that still have relatively high fertility are not the countries where people are overconsuming and cleaning the world's fisheries and burning up our fossil fuels and creating

greenhouse gases the real problem here is consumption there is a consumption crisis it is not a population crisis and to say that the solution to the world's problems much less a solution to the world poverty is to get poor people to stop having so many children is worse than a distraction it is worse than a distraction it will lead us to i think months late of one of the owners it is it is it is not one of the other it is it is both and to the extent that. person in the world sure how delightful dignity and should be to have quality into their lives that is what we're talking about so we're asked cause i'm sure i'm sure . we should look out. as sure that we do not consume the. planet's resources we should also help the poor women who have absolutely no access to education or to have to be made the choice this will become how quality into

their lives that that would be for ok you know when i want to get a man who did not know most of the time that you it seems to me it seems to me that the i feel that his program it's the problem of the west too willing to consume less well loused rest of the world consume more is there any political will for that expression in these hard times. i think that's what we all have to focus on and that's what i'm trying to say as long as we're looking at brown and black people and saying there are too many of them and that's the problem of the planet and that's the specter of the future and that this hallway and every halloween we have to be frightened of a world of billions of people then that's for how long we're going to lose sight of what really matters you know the real crisis we're facing which they said yes we are overconsuming resources and we are depleting the world's fisheries the planet is getting warmer but it has nothing to do with whether a poor family is going to have three or four children instead of two it has everything to do with what rich people are doing in the richest countries in the world well fascinating is a should thank you very much many thanks to my guest today in berlin washington and in gainesville and thanks your viewers for watching us here to see you next time

remember prosecutors.

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