markets. find out what's really happening to the global economy for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines to concentrate on our g. eleven thirty am in moscow these are your r.t. headlines thousands of europeans occupy the french riviera where the g twenty summits due to kick off thursday crowds angry with the current dire economic situation demand the world leaders focus on helping people rather than corporations . meanwhile e.u. leaders left stunned by the greek cabinets decision to hold a referendum on the latest bailout deal the move led to world markets plunge and predictions voters will reject the rest possibly sparking the euro zone's downfall . moment of truth for the world's most famous whistleblower julian assange awaits

a high court decision on his extradition to sweden over controversial sexual misconduct charges this is his project wiki leaks faces by natural troubles that could see the website shut down. with tunisia voting and islamic party in power on the same likely to happen in egypt his panel of guests and experts should the world not get used to the idea of islamic democracy coming up. live. live live live live. live keep. listening to the link. below in welcome across the capital as tunisia goes so does the rest of the arab

world to be sure successfully holds the first election of the arab spring but islamic party coming out on top the egyptians also will soon go to the polls and there's an exotic party they're expected to garner the most votes should we now get used to be idea of islamic democracy led to keep. listening. to cross talk the future of islamic democracies i'm joined by you sort of got nucci in tunis she is a member of the in the after party in jerusalem we have david rosenberg he's a columnist for the jerusalem post and in denver we cross to major i see me he's a professor at the university of denver all right folks this is crosstalk that means you can jump in anytime you want my very much encourage it but first marcia should we get used to be idea of islamic democracy as well at least in so far as elections go democracy and social change may have been the arab spring slogans would be events unfolding in the emerging regimes show that real change is mighty slow in coming while democracy has so far only produced

a form of political islam tunisians election the first vote in the arab spring for a parliament that will draft a new constitution and have more than sixty percent voter turnout and was hailed free and fair by international observers but the release of the results proud of wave of protests and more than a hundred appeals filed mainly over the zamost amount of party which came in first claiming ninety seats in the two hundred seventeen seat assembly. you know. this is a day of victory this is a day of pride. this is a day if humility. spoke with one voice in order to realize the aims of the revolution. in the coming months and years tunisia will be testing to see if the new assembly can translate the struggle for democracy into real changes that serve the people this may be a long shot probably not a party which now has to juggle good governance secular skepticism and a shattered economy. hopeful also the. commission report

it turns out to be. a reasonable and moderate party that would be a good battle for the rest of the region for that exact reason to just experiment with democracy and islam may play an important role when the other emerging arab spring countries shape their own political ideologies incidentally a modest success follows a call by levy as chief apprentice seem to up all these lamas law of sharia and in egypt which wields great cheer political clout the muslim brotherhood's freedom and equality party is expected to become a major force in the first parliamentary elections so certainly a new and fascinating trial and let's discuss this here and should if i can go to sleep it's very interesting to hear a sound bite in there and i just report there and you know it's the west you know trying to characterize your political party and your political victory and tunisia and we always hear these terms well we hope it's moderate and now if we don't want any kind of extreme form here do you think it's very judge mental coming from the

west about trying to claim what is moderate and what is not moderate considering the west supported what they called moderate secular regimes like mubarak. that's indeed the view of many many people around the region but i think what they're most concerned about is not their view of the west or europe they're concerned about their societies their economies their democracies. revolutions and going forward to hold these historic elections the first real democratic elections after the revolution so are there moments very proud very positive there are immense challenges that you've mentioned regarding skepticism of certain sectors and most importantly the economic challenges but there is a positive feeling that's just as soon as you spot the you know the revolutions

around the arab world they were the first to hold these real democratic elections and despite the challenges there is now a real feeling of achievement and of the possibility of all working together forgetting these provoke an exaggerated logical differences because the real challenges are really practical on the ground ok do it in jerusalem if i can go to you what do you think about the election outcome in tunisia because again there's this kind of we can feel attitude from the west because basically you know we don't we haven't seen too many elections like this in the in the arab world because of what i would call western new york colonialism now they've overthrown their their dictators now they're starting down a new trend which the west has always said democracy democracy democracy and there's skepticism with tunisia's and it was skepticism when hamas was elected seven years ago. well i think the u.s. is a legitimate concerns as far is tunisia and the rest of the arab spring countries for

the matter is that in the past and i want to emphasize very much in the past the experiment with democracy in islam has not been very successful we see what happened in iran we see what happened with hamas in the gaza strip in with his well in lebanon having said that it really does seem that we're witnessing something of a revolution in the arab world the fact that tunisian voters went to the polls had a choice of electing the new islamic party or a party reflecting islamic values that's prepared to go into a coalition with secular liberal parties is a very very courage ng we should bear in mind that in the past there have been coalitions like there one exists more or less in lebanon now in the past and in the palestinian areas there was a coalition between fatah and hamas the question is not just if they're going to be elections and will be elections are free and fair but whether or not the political players going forward are prepared to play the democratic a game and that's the test we have to wait for ok mate if i go to you again very

the west seems to like democracy in the islamic arab world but only if it suits their purposes so they can say this is a good democracy this is a bad democracy this is a good election this is a bad election isn't that being a bit hypocritical i mean if a democracy is what determine on the ground i absolutely agree i think when it comes to this in vocation of the adjective moderate with respect to tunisia or egypt that what we're really talking about is moderation to the extent that it lies that lines up with western policy and to the extent that a regime is supporting working within the framework of u.s. geo strategic interest in the region it's considered to be moderate so we often hear these terms about these moderate arab regimes as such as saudi arabia hosni mubarak's egypt king. jordan yes these are moderate in the sense that they are working very closely with us foreign policy but they're certainly not moderate with

respect to any objective definition of what constitutes democracy and any objective definition of what constitutes you know universal standard of human rights so i think you know yes or as point is an important one what really matters is not. how some people in the west are characterizing events in the arab spring what really matters and i think what really needs to be celebrated is that for the first time in the modern history of the arab and islamic world you are having democratic revolutions and and perhaps the first opportunity you know for people in these regions to really exercise a meaningful self-determination and so that's where i think the focus of the discussion should be that's something to celebrate and once again we see tunisia sort of leading the way they led the way with the with the revolt last january and and now they're leading the way with the first you know free and fair election and all power to them you should if you go back to you in tunis and that was very interesting is that your electoral opponents opponents claim that you are going to

ban alcohol in bikini's i mean i would hope that tunisian politics is more about alcohol than invent bikini's. exactly you know people's concerns are really far from you know much discussed topics and can i also make the point. regarding islam and democracy and whether the experiments in the past have been positive or negative i think we need to move away from these reductions and simplifications. islam and democracy can be compatible just as you can have a religious. inspired democracy you can have religious dictatorship and just as you can have a secular democracy you can have secular dictatorships in the past in the arab world that's more or less where we've had throughout the arab world we've had secular dictatorships there is new definite relationship between

secularism and democracy so let's let's make that clear the problem now is not that you know islam is coming into into politics the moost important change is that we have a change from dictatorship into a democratic transition who really to establish a real democratic system. you know let's move away from food getting on these exaggerated issues secondly. as you said you know the challenges are really first establishing a democratic system we've never had this in the past so that's going to be the me challenge establishing a real system where citizens are equal where they enjoyed public and individual liberties where the powers are distributed and separated and balanced where there is freedom of the media an independent judiciary all these will be guarantees for never having the return of dictatorship in the name of religion all the name of

liberalism or secularism and the second trial and is economic development really needs to move forward we have a huge crisis that new worse and often. revolution and people are really expecting a lot from from these parties and the message has been clear from the election results that they do want their parties to as was seen unfortunately in the election campaign to have a focus on these provoked and orchestrated incidents and discussions they want their parties to work together and we've seen this from there it's also yes a number has come on the top. during elections just as other parties all have been part of the struggle against dictatorship and they've also received a significant shelf i don't know that i should jump in here before we have all the iraqi letter they are going to break and i go to david david i mean we shouldn't be surprised that these countries after suffering under these dictatorships supported

by the west i'd like to point out that actually want to turn to islam and just say look you get get it get these islamic parties the chance of least give them a chance or think you risk of kind of oversimplifying what is this one where there's a tendency you know even among people who specialize in the subject you to look at islam bears or you will force revolution anti western ism in door they dismiss it as simply a political. phenomenon and religious stressing and no we don't have to tell you concerned about it if you your social and economic and political reforms or interests you can be addressed by anybody in the islamic parties will evaporate once people are satisfied with their social economic well being what i think is very important and we see this phenomena certainly in tunisia i think as well in egypt probably in libya as well used on the whole despite the fact that the arab spring this revolution these are very conservative societies they don't want the kind of let me just let me show you here we're run out of time working out we'll

come back you know short break ok after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the future of democracy in the arab world today the party. mummification e c. n. n. if. me is eve. to. see.

wealthy british style. on the title. market why not. come to. find out what's really happening to the global economy with much cause or run no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune in to kaiser report on r.g.p. . mother company sister of. the i. want to. welcome back to also time carol about to remind you we're discussing the prospects of democracy to the arab world. the implication of

a system. ok i'd like to go back to david in jerusalem here stephen i think you know how. you look at tunisia as being a model because isn't it really for the rest of the arab awakening here is it a good precedent or is it an aberration it's very specific it's a smaller population there's not as much ethnic differences there it is much more homogeneous they were much more liberal before the bin. dictatorship eccentrics after my point is how much is to nisha a model. a compass for the future. probably isn't much of a model for many of the reasons you suggested and you know you economically tunisia has performed relatively well there seems to be a solid class of people we would probably to find is. you know western and i think we saw that in the election results it wasn't any it was as everybody has pointed out conducted freely fairly without any chaos or violence and even though

he's not a party not that took forty percent of those who point out the other two thirds or sixty percent of the country voted for other parties i also think that. the tunisians voters were not expressing any support for revolutionary islam i think they're very much support the idea of a traditional society in the sense of having conservative moral values and things that come up with a fortune in a popular political parlance is no bikini's but the fact is they represent their real concerns and these alarmists in a very serious way address those concerns the real question will be going forward is not whether the fusion people want to read islamic republic i think they've made quite clear they don't want one the question is whether or not. among these longest themselves they represent a wide wide range of political opinions not all of them are very friendly to democracy or liberalism or personal freedoms whether or not society can cope with

that phenomenon and democracy and can we now. see that includes really going to need and for again this kind of skepticism i mean are are are muslims mature enough to have democracy because i'm afraid that's one conclusion we could you could draw from what we just heard. i'm a broad agreement with what you stated david has just articulated i think the point here is that you know tunisians going forward are going to have to you know. decide what type of society they want to construct and one of the great things about what's happening today's for the first time we're going to actually have an opportunity to engage in important public debates intellectual exchange is democratic bargaining and negotiation and all emerging democracies have to go through in order to develop a broad consensus on the basic norms and values of what constitutes

a just society there's a lot of you know things that have to be reconciled there's a lot of different ideological currents but that will hopefully take place nonviolently will take place in a free and fair media will take place in a democratic parliament and and that's how you know every society that's democratic has gone through these phases tunisia is experiencing its first democratic moment i think we have to be a little bit patient here i think we have to be supportive of creating strong civil society supporting basic principles so that you have the right to exercise self-determination ok let's go back to soon as i mean it is your political party and congratulations on your victory do you feel you have to placate western concerns about the nature of the islamic nature of your political party and what kind of society you want to make. as i said you know our program is mostly addressing chian is years and we've made our program very clear we had an electoral program dealing with the political social economic and cultural fields which is very detailed and was published in arabic english and french and is

available online it has reassurances fall for fall for investors for years primarily but also for others we will maintain we hope to maintain good relations with our main traditional part of this europe and to advance the status but also to diversify our relations with the rest of the world. as i said our proposal is to have a parliamentary system but this tributes and balances powers on a wide scale but as i said you know our party are concerned about. and regarding a model for other countries which are not to want to presume that each country has its circumstance circumstances and. conditions and history however we believe that there are many similarities between the countries of the region and that's why the revolution intern is here did inspire similar influence around the region or

obviously. different parts however we believe that we hope the mean point that will inspire others around the region is that we need to move away from divisions that in our societies are diverse and they will always be diverse however we need to rise above those differences accept them and focus on the immense challenges facing our country and that it is possible to work together you've mentioned the difficulties about working together and whether working together is possible between urgent ideological parties however we've had this in the past it into his year for instance we've seen for movement which brought together not a movement with a communist party with an. this policy with liberal policies and not is to work together in its opposition to dictatorship but they've managed to elaborate a vision for the society they want and there is much common ground on which we can build ok let me let me let me jump in here because there's a word that's used

a lot in the west and sharia law ok islamic law here but if i can go to you i mean this is what's always brought up is that when you have the national transition council in libya they said they will respect this type of religious law and then we also have it and tunisia where this is going to be in play here and there are different variations forms flavorings you know you can go from country to country but the country that has it the most severe version of it is saudi arabia but they don't get a whole lot of criticism today oh that's correct. the fact is that islamic law is subject to a great deal of interpretation and a great deal of i'm going to be very candid of fudging other words it's one thing to say we're imposing islamic laws on the thing to say will be inspired by islamic law will refer to islamic law when making you know civil code. saudi arabia is not a particularly good role model not only do they observe. additional said was an understatement thanks to rid of its strict form of that's an understatement.

absolutely. so i don't think you know i don't think you know i think you know we'll show you what you will certainly in tunisia and look for major you want to jump in in denver go ahead throw it. yeah i know i'm i agree with what david is saying that the question of sharia law really is a red herring particularly in the united states of america today where you know there are these groups that are trying to get that believe that shari'a law is going to take over the united states i think the point here is that when it comes to the construction of a legal system it's important that that legal system be subject to checks and balances and fundamentally to you know public accountability so you can call it what you will but as long as that law is subject to democratic checks and balances important and subject to changing reformation then i think you know that's what we need to focus on the the term shari'a law can mean many things in the audience that the head of the libyan transitional council was referring to it effectively means

a a moral code rooted within traditional norms and values that respects life property and religion in the west it means chopping off hands and sort of you know killing killing minorities so i think the focus on shari'a law is really attempt to i think engage in scaremongering to sort of play up on unfortunately deep seated islamophobia stereotypes that have resurfaced in the west but fundamentally you know the you know the question of the legal code is going to be debated in all of these emerging democracies and as long as those debates are open free and fair and subject to public scrutiny then i think we need to sort of be confident that that the peoples in these regions will get it right if i go back to tennessee can you comment on that or how do you in your political party and how you see the future of your country how do you balance the two because you've talked a lot about you've talked to talk of democracy on this program ok and how do you balance that with religious law law sharia. we believe that

you know the issue of identity is is clear in the constitution and new party has said that they want to change this. is an arab muslim state. not in our actual laws comes from from islamic jurisprudence but the laws as they are we said we want to maintain laws. as they are we do not want to. return to his yard what we propose is a state where all citizens are equal and the state gets its feet in the sea from from the will of the people to see that you know there is a food is on you know extreme interpretations of islam and that there are extremist currents within these so tight societies that me take over and me also you know exploring the democratic process yes there are. extremist elements in all societies

and we believe to expand and grow under repression and however we believe what's clear from from these elections and from the results is that. society is very moderate by any church and they have voted for that represents. the middle ground let me jump in here we're almost out of. time i'd like to go to you a year from now do you think islamic democracy would be a term that a western western audiences will be able to comprehend. well i hope you'll stay with me because you're going to be there if you indeed are going to be able to develop yet it if a year from now we see a thriving democracy in tunisia where there's free debate where there's a free press where all different political currents are able to articulate their point of view then i think you know the term islamic democracy is not going to invoke the type of you know scary images that are already let me jump in here will

change that proposition a year from now many thanks to my guest today and to mr islam and in denver and thanks to our viewers for watching as you are to see you next time and remember astafy. can. still. want.

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