think about. news today violence is once again flared up. these are the images the world has been seeing from the streets of canada. trying to hope for asians around the day.

ok. welcome to crossfire computable as tunisia goes so does the rest of the arab world tunisia successfully holds the first election of the arab spring but islamic party coming out on top of egyptians also will soon go to the polls and there is an exam a party they're expected to garner the most votes should we now get used to be idea of islamic democracy. to keep. crossed out the future of islamic democracies i'm joined by you sort of got meucci into this she is a member of the in the after party in jerusalem we have david rosenberg he's

a columnist for the jerusalem post and in denver we cross to nader i see me he's a professor at the university of denver all right folks this is cross talk that means you can jump in anytime you want my very much encourage it but first marcia should we get used to the idea of islamic democracies well at least and so far as elections go democracy and social change may have been there at spring slogans would be events unfolding in the margin regimes show that real change is mighty slow in coming while democracy has so far only produced a form of political islam tunisia's election the first vote in the arab spring for a parliament that will draft a new constitution called more than sixty percent voter turnout and was hailed free and fair by international observers for the release of the results part of wave of protests and more than a hundred appeals filed namely over these almost amount of party which came in first claiming ninety seats and the two hundred seventeen seats assembly yeah there you go you know when you saw. this is a day of victory this is

a day of pride. this is a tie if you military this is the day when she knew she spoke with one voice in order to realize the games. the revolution. in the upcoming months and years tunisia will be testing to see if the new assembly can translate the struggle for democracy into real changes that serve the people this may be a long shot for the amount of party which now has to juggle good governance secular skepticism and a shattered economy. hopeful also. internationally and not a party turns out to be a reasonable and moderate party because that would be a good battle for the rest of the region for that exact reason to just experiment with democracy and islam may play an important role when the other emerging arab spring countries shape their own political ideologies incidentally a modest success follows a call by levy as chief of the i want to say to uphold the islamic law of sharia and in egypt which wields great cheer political clout the muslim brotherhood's

freedom and equality party is expected to become a major force in the first parliamentary elections so certainly a new and fascinating trial and well let's discuss this here and sure if i can go to you think it's very interesting we had a soundbite in there and i just report there and you know it's the west you know trying to characterize your political party in your political victory in tunisia and we always hear these terms well we hope it's moderate and now if we don't want any kind of extreme form here do you think it's very judge mental coming from the west about trying to claim what is moderate and what is not moderate considering the west supported what they called moderate secular regimes like ben ali in the body. that's indeed the view of many many people around the region but i think what they're concerned about is not the view of the west or europe they're concerned about their societies their economies democracies. need these revolutions and going forward to hold these historic elections the

first real democratic elections after the revolution so to museums are at the moment very proud very positive there are immense challenges that you've mentioned regarding skepticism of certain sectors and most importantly economic challenges but there is a positive feeling that just as soon as you spot the you know the fleeing of revolutions around the arab world they were the first to hold these real democratic elections and despite the challenges there is now a real feeling of achievement and of the possibility of all working together for getting these provoke an exaggerated ideological differences because the real challenges are really practical on the ground ok do it in jerusalem if i can go to you what do you think about the election outcome in tunisia because again there's this kind of we can feel attitude from the west because. you know we don't we

haven't seen too many elections like this for me in the arab world because of what i would call western new york colonialism now they've overthrown their dictators now they're starting down a new trend which the west has always said democracy democracy democracy and there's skepticism with tunisia isn't there was skepticism when hamas was elected seven years ago. i think the us is a legitimate concerns as far is. the rest of the arab spring countries the fact of the matter is that in the past and i want to emphasize very much in the past the experiment with democracy and islam has not been very successful we see what happened in iran we see what happened with hamas in the cause of stripping with hizbollah and lebanon having said that it really does seem that we're witnessing something of a revolution in the in the arab world the fact that tunisian voters went to the polls had a choice of electing going to an islamic party or a party reflecting islamic values that's prepared to go into

a coalition with secular liberal parties is a very very courage ng we should bear in mind that in the past there have been coalitions like that one exists more or less in lebanon now in the past and in the palestinian areas there was a coalition between fatah and hamas the question is not just if they're going to be elections and the elections are free and fair but whether or not the political players going forward are prepared to play the democratic a game and that's the test we have to wait for ok mate if i go to you in denver the west seems to like them ocracy in the islamic arab world but only if it suits their purposes so they can say this is a good democracy this is a bad democracy this is a good election this is a bad alexion isn't that being a bit hypocritical i mean i think democracy is what determine on the ground and i absolutely agree i think when it comes to this and vocation of the adjective moderate with respect to tunisia or egypt that what we're really talking about

is moderation to the extent that it lies that lines up with western policy and to the extent that the regime is supporting working within the framework of u.s. geo strategic interest in the region it's considered to be moderate so we often hear these terms about these moderate arab regimes such as saudi arabia hosni mubarak's egypt king abdullah. jordan yes these are moderate in the sense that they are working very closely with us foreign policy but they're certainly not moderate with respect to any objective definition of what constitutes democracy and any objective definition of what constitutes you know universal standard of human rights so i think you know your stress point is an important one what really matters is not. how some people in the west are characterizing events in the arab spring what really matters and i think what really needs to be celebrated is that for the first time in the modern history of the arab and islamic world you are

having democratic revolutions and and perhaps the first opportunity you know for people in these regions to really exercise a meaningful self-determination and so that's where i think the focus of the discussion should be that's something to celebrate and once again we see tunisia sort of leading the way they led the way with the with the revolt last january and and now they're leading the way with the first you know free and fair election and all power to them you should if you go back to you in tunis and that was very interesting is that your electoral opponents of poland so a claim that you were going to ban alcohol and bikini's i mean i would hope that tunisian politics is more about alcohol in than bikini's. exactly you know people's concerns are really far from these you know much discussed topics and can i also make a point. regarding islam and democracy and whether the experiments in the past have been positive or negative i think we need to move away from these productions and

simplifications. and democracy can be compatible just as you can have a religious. inspired democracy you can have religious dictatorship and just as you can have a secular democracy you can have secular dictatorships in the past in the arab world that's more or less where we've had throughout the arab world we've had secular dictatorships there is new definite relationship between secularism and democracy so let's let's make that clear so the problem now is not that you know islam is coming into into politics the moost important change is that we have a change from dictatorship into a democratic transition who really to establish a real democratic system. you know let's move away from food to sing on these exaggerated issues secondly. as you said you know the

challenges are really first establishing a democratic system we've never had this in the past so that's going to be the me challenge establishing a real system where citizens are equal where they enjoyed public and individual liberties where the powers are distributed and separated and balanced where there is freedom of the media an independent judiciary all these will be guarantees for never having the return of the ship in the name of religion all the name of liberalism or secularism and the second child inch is economic development but really needs to move forward we have a huge crisis that new worse and often. the revolution and people are really expecting a lot from from these parties and the message has been clear from the election results that they don't want their parties she was seen unfortunately in the election campaign to have a focus on the provoked an orchestrated incident and discussions they want their

parties to work together and we've seen this from there is yes a number has come on the top. during elections just as other parties are have been part of the struggle against dictatorship and they've also received a significant. rate you know but i jump in here before we go to all the nic what are they going to break and i go to david david i mean you know we shouldn't be surprised if these countries after suffering under these dictatorships supported by the west would like to point out they actually want to turn to islam and just say look and get get it get these are slummy parties a chance at least give them a chance well i think there is a risk of kind of oversimplifying what is this form in which the tendency your you know even among people who specialize in the subject you to look at islam where's your fourth revolution an anti western ism in-door they dismiss it as simply a political. phenomenon and really distressing and though we don't have to take

concern about it if you your social and economic and political reforms or address you can be addressed by anybody in the islamic parties all the operating people are satisfied with their social economic well being what i think is very important and we see this phenomena certainly in tunisia think as well in egypt and probably in libya as well used on the whole despite the fact that the arab spring this revolution these are very conservative societies they don't want the kind of let me just let me go here we're run out of time i will come back you're going to short break ok after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the future of democracy can the arab world stay the party. and you can see. the be.

a very warm welcome to you this is your news today protesters on the whole city center pay at. least in canceling your chance to choose says it's a good book except the stats is a big huge experiments keep spouting off with. weeks you will proclaim this right he's going to expose the military trying to censor local economies and its arcane claims about financial tips. to maintain our confidence in markets and. wants to be seen trade imbalances recession look even the nation's close to collapsing of some like loan foreclosed homes. something else ripple a banks again feel like things us crash smashed the ceiling in flames just like all the cars in athens

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want the. can i. still. welcome back to crossfire computer about to remind you we're discussing the

prospects of democracy in the arab world. q. ok i'd like to go back to david in jerusalem here he's i think it's you know how do you look at tunisia as being a model because isn't it really for the with the rest of the arab awakening here is it a good president or isn't it an aberration it's very specific it's a small population there's not as much ethnic differences there i was much more homogeneous they were much more liberal before the bin. decatur ship eccentrics center my point is how much is tunisia a model. a compass for the future. probably isn't much of a model for many of the reasons you suggested and you know you economically tunisia has performed relatively well there seems to be a solid class of people we would probably to find is. you know western audience and

i think we saw that in the election results there wasn't any it was as everybody has pointed out conducted freely fairly without any chaos or violence and even though the islamic parties knocked it took forty percent of those should point out the other two thirds or sixty percent of the country voted for other parties i also think that. voters were not expressing any support for revolutionary islam i think they're very much support the idea of a traditional society in the sense of having conservative moral values and things that come up in a fortune in the popular political parlance is no bikini's but the fact is they represent their real concerns and these alarmists in a very serious way address those concerns the real question will be going forward is not whether the fusion people want to read islamic republic i think they've made quite clear they don't want one the question is whether or not. among these lamas themselves they represent

a wide wide range of political opinions not all of them are very friendly to democracy or liberalism were personal freedoms whether or not society can cope with that phenomenon and democracy in the end can we now. see that includes really going to need and very again this kind of skepticism i mean our our our our muslims mature enough to have democracy because i'm afraid that's one conclusion we can and you can draw from what we just heard. i'm a broad agreement with what just david david has just articulated i think the point here is that you know tunisians going forward are going to have to you know. decide what type of society they want to construct and one of the great things about what's happening today is for the first time we're going to actually have that opportunity to engage in the important public debates intellectual exchange is a democratic bargaining a negotiation that all emerging democracies have to go through in order to develop

a broad consensus on the basic norms and values of what constitutes a just society there's a lot of you know things that have to be reconciled there's a lot of different ideological currents but that will hopefully take place nonviolently it'll take place in a free and fair media it'll take place in a democratic parliament and and that's how you know every society that is democratic has gone through these phases tunisia is experiencing its first democratic moment i think we have to be a little bit patient here i think we have to be supportive of creating strong civil society supporting basic principles so that tunisians can have the right to exercise self-determination ok let's go back to tunis i mean it is your political party and congratulations on your victory do you feel you have to placate western concerns about the nature of the islamic nature of your political party and what kind of society you want to make. as i said you know our program is is mostly addressing china's years and we've made our program very clear we had an

electoral program dealing with the political social economic and cultural fields which is very detailed and was published in arabic english and french and available online it has reassurances fall for for for investors for years primarily but also for others we will maintain we hope to maintain good relations with our mean traditional part of this europe and to advance the status further but also to diversify our relations with the rest of the world. as i said our proposal is to have a parliamentary system but this tribute and balances powers on a wide scale as i said in our party of concerned about. and regarding a model for for other countries which are not to want to presume each country has its circumstance circumstances and. conditions and history however we have been there are many similarities between the countries of the region and that's why the

revolution in tunisia did inspire similar for lucian's around the region or obviously. different parts however we believe that we hope the mean point that will inspire others around the region is that we need to move away from divisions that are in our societies are diverse and they will always be diverse however we need to rise above those differences accept them and focus on the immense challenges facing our country and it is possible to work together you've mentioned the difficulties about working together and we're working together it is possible between divergent ideological parties however we've had this in the past interim is your for instance we've had a team for movements which brought together another movement with a communist party within. this policy with liberal policies and not is to work together not in its opposition to dictatorship but they've managed to elaborate

a vision for the society they want and there is not common ground on which we can build ok let me let me let me jump in here because there's a word that's used a lot in the west today sharia law ok islamic law david if i can go to you i mean this is what's always brought up is that when you have the national transition council in libya they said they will respect this type of really just law and then we also have it and tunisia where this is going to be in play here and there are different variations forms flavorings you know you can go from country to country but the country that has it the most severe version of it is saudi arabia but they don't get a whole lot of criticism today oh that's correct. the fact is that islamic law is subject to a great deal of interpretation and a great deal if i can be very candid of fudging other words it's one thing to say we're imposing islamic laws on the thing to say will be inspired by islamic law will refer to islamic law when making our civil code use saudi arabia is not a particularly good role model donnelly. it's

a number that's an understatement thanks to rid of its strict form of it that's an understatement there. absolutely. so i don't think you know i don't think the idea of you know we should we will certainly in tunisia and look for major you want to jump in in denver go ahead go it. yeah no i agree with what david is saying that the question of sharia law really is a red herring particularly in the united states of america today where you know there are these groups that are trying to get that believe that shari'a law is going to take over the united states i think the point here is is that when it comes to the construction of a legal system it's important that legal system be subject to checks and balances and fundamentally to you know public accountability so you can call it what you will but as long as that law is subject to democratic checks and balances import and subject to change in reformation then i think you know that's what we need to focus on the the term sharia law community things in the audience that the head of

the libyan transitional council was referring to effectively means a moral code rooted within traditional norms and values that respects life property and religion in the west it means chopping off hands and sort of you know killing killing minorities so i think the focus on shari'a law is really attempt to i think engage in scaremongering to sort of play up on unfortunately deep seated islamophobia stereotypes that have resurfaced in the west but fundamentally you know the you know the question of the legal code is going to be debated in all of these emerging democracies and as long as those debates are open free and fair and subject to public scrutiny then i think we need to sort of be confident that the peoples in these regions will get it right if i go back to tennessee can you comment on that how do you in your political party and how you see the future of your country how do you balance the two because you've talked a lot about you've talked the talk of democracy on this program ok and how do you

balance that with religious law law sharia. we believe that you know the issue of identity is is clear in the constitution and new party has said that they want to change this. is an arab muslim state. a lot in our actual laws comes from from islamic jurisprudence but the laws as they are we said we want to maintain laws. as they are we do not want to. return to his year our what we propose is a state where all citizens are equal and we're. getting the sea from from the will of the people. you know there is a focus on extreme interpretations of islam and there are extremist currents within these tight societies that me take over and me also you know exploring the

democratic process yes there are. extremist elements in all societies and we believe the to expand and grow under repression and however we believe what's clear from from from these elections and from the results is that. society is very moderate by any and they have voted for the represent you know the middle ground job and here we're almost out of nowhere i don't you just. need or i'd like to go to you a year from now do you think islamic democracy would be a term that the west and western audiences will be able to comprehend. one hundred thirty three times on your guy you know i have three if you indeed are going and we'll be able to develop yeah it if a year from now we see a thriving democracy in tunisia where there's free debate where there's a free press where all different political currents are able to articulate their

point of view then i think you know the term islamic democracy is not going to invoke the type of you know scary images that have already let me jump in here we'll check that proposition a year from now many thanks to my guest today and to mr and in denver and thanks to our viewers for watching us here in our see you next time and remember. taking the. guitar sometimes you see a story and it seems so you think you understand it and then he lives something else you hear or see some other part of it and realized everything you thought you knew you don't i'm sorry welcome to the big picture.

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