and sending rome's borrowing costs soaring. you're watching r t do stay tuned for peter lavelle's cross-talk show where the uncertain future of the euro zone is the only certainty today that's coming right up. if you. follow in welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle the hero of crisis without end eurozone leaders and national governments continue to be at loggerheads on how to rescue a currency that has an unpredictable future which clearly started out as a financial fiasco of the highest order is now a political disaster with few if any positive outcomes. to cross-talk the prospects for the eurozone i'm joined by robert oulds in london

he is the director of the bruges group also in london we have caro new he is chief executive officer at the center for european policy studies and in minneapolis we cross to clare hill she's professor at the university of minnesota law school all right folks this is cross talk that means you can jump in anytime you want all right robert if i could go to you first and you know we can talk about the financial nuances about this i think everybody that's been following the story knows basically the big numbers involved but you know as we i thought last week everything had been decided i thought everything was going to be done you know as i recall is a mark all they had decided everything decided to fate of three hundred million people and now we find out well not really and even the national governments they're not particularly sure what they want to do the french are just worried about their aaa rating and what's going on in greece now well maybe by the time this program airs we'll have a different scenario playing out there i hope point is it's

a political fiasco more than anything else right now. well yes it is it's a political fiasco it's an economic disaster it's becoming a political disaster as well certainly through the case of greece and it's spreading to other european union countries such as italy to disaster that has been predicted a long time ago before the single currency was actually born when he's just being talked about many people knew it would end of this way and so it's been a long predicted and we're seeing it play out as we speak this disaster so really it was predicted and really the answer to problems is to wind up the single currency which just doesn't that might not be very easy to do clarify can go to you i think one of the tragedies in looking at what's being played out with the the euro crisis here is going into its second year here is that you know there seems to be so little political will in national governments because nobody wants to make the hard decisions ok because if you really push too hard for austerity you will be

punished by the voters so it's this kind of kicking the can down the road as this crisis continues to snowball i mean amazingly so i mean ok the transfer for greece has been accepted but that's still very tentative because if you don't play by the rules you don't do the right thing you're not going to get any more and then everybody is a loser i mean why is this political crisis so paralyzing because it's like everyone sitting on the titanic arguing over the seating arrangement as we go right into this this the iceberg call this crisis. well couple of things first i want to quibble with rob with you so everyone could predict it would end this way i'm not quite sure what he means by this but i see a lot of kicking into the moderate if not the long term i don't think we're anywhere near and and i think too that so many people are potentially so unhappy

by any kind of major change because you have a bunch of beneficiaries of a system that just doesn't earn its keep and no surprise they're not willing to give it up but they have strong expectations that the stuff they have led been led to believe is the case that is to say in the case of greece maybe not paying taxes or retiring early and characterizing hairdressing as a hazardous profession so they can retire even earlier then things like that are a sense of entitlement and you get into a mindset where someone's trying to take away something that's yours and there's so many entrenched in title and so you know in the air you breathe very interesting point people you. know if i can go to you in london one of the things i find very interesting and what following this crisis is that you do see how corrupt a lot of these national governments are because they have all of these clientele they have cronyism you have certain different differential attitudes towards the banking sector when everything's all on going fine you know everyone can cover this

all up but when you look at italy for example in greece then you find out who really doesn't pay taxes and who doesn't have an interest in ever paying taxes and who's taking responsibility and in greece and italy at least as we speaking right now nobody really wants to be responsible. never tamati will have to overcome the problem i mean i don't think you could generalize it so easily let's say there are so much corruption that maybe certain countries where there is a huge problem but already you could compare spain and italy and say that spain for example is has a huge economic problem but this government's why it is probably a bunch better minister than italy is italy for example certainly has huge problems which are being revealed by the day greece we all know them by now but there are many other countries which had a core of europe which are certainly well run of course there is still some denial of the problem some hiding of the problems for example in the banking systems but this is a thing which we have known in europe since a long time let's say this is the national champions and sometimes no sufficient

willingness let's say to recognize certain problems however i think that if you read for example the conclusion from the last two weeks ago or so from the european council you see that as a clear change and we are moving rapidly to a more federal model look for example there is a clear statement a finger pointing to italy and the minutes of the council saying italy should that happen to be increase its retirement age to sixty seven years which is unprecedented this would never have happened in the past what do you think about that robert because it seems to me that you know kind of reiterate is that when things are going fine when you when you can lie to get into the euro and everyone carries your weight but when a crisis starts hitting then people start looking after themselves more often and and we see that why why would the northern countries of europe want to be having to have to deal with because the kind of political corruption that we see in italy and in greece maybe to some extent in spain also is that you know they're the ones paying for this continuation of a system that really needs to reform itself and there's no political will to do

that because if you do that then you cut out the some sense of entitlement that i think claire was getting to. well there where did to the idea of political union within the e.u. and we've just heard it it's moving towards a federal structure but that would be creating another disaster the european union has created problems but in a sense some perceive as a beneficial crisis where they can use the problems of the euro has created in the eurozone debt crisis to create fiscal union in a sense an economic government for the whole of the you or the eurozone states that will be a disaster will have new people in northern countries which will be fed up with subsidising the southern countries and people in the south will be just totally fed up with the austerity measures being forced upon them by countries from in the north it will create serious divisions within the european union the attempt to have great decentralization will store up trouble for the future and is needs to be

greatly alarming it's greatly alarming what we call it how do you how do we deal with the convergence of our unit labor costs i think that's exactly what robert is getting at i mean and it's been said over and over again as a german workers a lot different than a greek worker well you know it's going to clarify now i am very great going to have i agree with robert with chris i agree with robert with respect to the problem i suspect that i don't agree with and with respect to the solution that if the say . i think. there is there are intractable and probably ultimately irreconcilable differences among both the financial aspects the economic aspects of the countries in question you just have values there are different practices that are different and a very strongly embedded kind of level. robert ray think well this is so serious and so bad that we have to try to blow it up i i'm not sure what we ought to do but

i don't think that realistically people will do any other can't kick for the moderate term and tell themselves they're not doing that ok karl if i go to you in london how long can the eurozone kick the can down the road and who's going to pay for it because as we're speaking right now you're getting so many different points of view i mean everyone agrees it has to be solved ok wow well that's a that's a great consensus but i mean there's still different ways of having to have two approaches considering last week apart everyone was told it was being wrapped up now that's not the case nor would we know what is to be seen this crisis for the last two years and if you compare it to two years ago we definitely made steps forward let's say there are things which are debatable today no one wants to do what is traditionally changed what is structurally change no money has been thrown at the problem but what structurally is changing of the road we have made we have made adjustments we have made decisions but so beachwear and imaginable i mean until to do years ago for example if we change the lisbon treaty for example if it

was a new found glory on the bailout clause also now that is a debate or say that we need to have a further is to change the lisbon treaty later to have a more federal structure but it can also look at the conclusions from two weeks ago where they said look we need to have a separate eurozone gansler we need to have be much stronger government of course it should have been decided much earlier i fully agree with this but you really are somewhere i mean in the same situation as the united states was a civil war in the mid nineteenth century i mean we are in a form of an economic guts not a good healthy turning out and the good. sensor i said that we will start to have a more survivable structure the key thing here is the latte that separates most common of the sovereignty gradually moved to the european level and is no longer national and i want to talk about charging the second part of the program rather than i had a look at how we've elected go ahead robert jump them so often team has not moved to a center which is unaccountable which has been a root cause of the disaster which is in unfolding power should be returned to the nation states with people that we've actually elected or can actually dismiss it

and let elections and that will respond to the people's needs and the sponsor the different conditions of each individual country centralization in amassing power to brussels in the european union level will just create further difficulties for the future we see it's unfolding for the euro does not suit all member states and neither would a centralized economic government for the european union that will not be of interest europe is just too different and too diverse and lets try a some democracy and returning powers back to the nation state ok where you want to jump in there. can i ask robert wide like to ask robert a question which is to say i understand that he sees this is where we ought to be and i can certainly see the merits in that position i guess the two questions i have is first robert do in fact expect this to happen and if so what is the route by which it would happen one of the reasons i asked this question is because

you know when i say kicking the can and i'm fully mindful of what counts as well different things have happened different things are being contemplated creditor's the chance of them taking a fifty percent haircut all of this again going into our interface and i am going to try to be here with me when we were told in the old days when i'm we've been here we've all run out of time here in this part of the program after a short break we'll continue our spirit to be on the euro stay with r.t. . if you. want. discovery to be. communicated with you want to. become free.

see what nature can give you. a very warm welcome to you this is your news today protesters on the wall street they have. to try to get a break dance is a big. experiment good. to see this rap music. was allegedly trying to look and it's arcane trying to pass financial templates. to maintain our confidence in markets and economics to want to be seen trade imbalances recession look the nation's close to collapsing of supply blown feel close. to fail aaa banks again sealevel i think if the us crash.

teams are just like ultimate in a closet in the streets the i.m.f. spokespeople just programs increase the total economy. and if you. want to. welcome back your past our computer involved we're having a very spirited debate about the crisis of the euro. well robert doesn't happen too often on cross talk i think you're on trial do you want to answer claire's questions go right. as a nation states and countries can even exit the european union if they so wish in

fact most people in britain would actually favor that option and the euro can be dismantled just like the movies own was dismantled in the soviet union collapse the countries can restore their own common sense and that will actually be to their benefit it will free up their markets from being dominated by german german exports which benefit from the euro because it favors their unit labor costs they will help their help them gain competitiveness just like when britain needs the precursor to the euro the exchange rate mechanism which picked the u.k.'s pound sterling to the door each mark when. u.k. left the e of m. its economy grew after the common sea was devalued the same would happen for germany and for italy it would be an important part not the whole picture but an important part of those countries really gaining competitiveness and beginning to grow again because that is the ultimate answer to the problems of the southern european countries is a distinct lack of growth. italy has had next to no growth for decades going to

something i have serious obsession if they were to leave the euro it would help that i can see in your face you want to answer clara where you are you satisfied with those hours. yes ok you know i understand that robert finds this desirable state of affairs. and i understand that logistically of course we know a variety of routes to get to the place where robert wants to go the question i have is the feasibility given the political climate i mean just as we were talking before about how people don't have political will how is a whole country that has expectations of paying very few taxes and getting a lot of government benefits how is that going to be changed around i also want to know the answer the question so many people have entrenched interests that how would the endeavor work to say that have the people who believe or understand that this is the right way to go to in fact persuade people who are going to be massively hurt and dislocated by it to proceed in that direction you know i mean

you're damned if you do damned if you do have a question i want to end the current first go back to london first let me go back i think it's very interesting i mean what is the choice is really before the population of the eurozone is it is it to save the currency or to save the union can you do both simultaneously or do you choose one and if i'm saying you choose the union you go political union because only a political union can support a euro ultimately because they do have a fiscal side and we leave it all the way the other direction you can't have this middle ground that they've had for the last decade. that's what i just mentioned a moment ago it is your choice between national sovereignty and federalism we need to accept that for certain decisions we have done it for monetary union but not for economic union that things have to be decided at the center say for the seventeen not necessarily for the twenty seven and no longer at the member state level for

example if greece last week were to have voted in a referendum over to have passed that on the left the choice to do greek citizens would have meant that the greece greek citizens would have got a veto on fact on economic governance within the euro zone which is almost unheard of let's say there should be there couldn't be of it or against it of course all member states can have all the solutions but if there is a majority deciding in a certain sense we have to go in a certain sense and that's what needs to go about let's say but that is the good thing of this crisis and i say that you see we are clearly moving in this direction also the president about these airlines you see the action or say they really are losing their jobs is a good side to this crisis. understand only we know. there's only because it's on the streets people we know and you say there's a good thing to these crises and that some political project some political found fantasy held by a small political class small people class feel as they call greater interests to their own interests to other than protecting their own interests to the people that

work in their country is that astounds me an astounding thing to say yes if you want to reply to that go ahead and it can i just say on that on that issue it's very simple to say we have to look back to the period ninety ninety two ninety ninety four when you have the similar situation as we have to not now to not such a deep recession but also recession we have to combat the defeat of liberation for example in italy almost in spain and we have to look at the result and imagine ourselves if this were to happen today let's say whether this were to be better yes or no if the euro breaks down let's say this will be a disaster for many countries primarily for germany the motor of economic growth in europe at the moment you know clarifying go do you mean and the other element of all germany was. going to go anywhere i want to i want to go to choir here the thing is that i'm a lot of the great skeptics of the way the eurozone has been dealing with this is that really at the center of it all is the banks i mean it's not saving countries it's not saving populations it's saving a banking class and when you have political elites that are so deferential to the

financial system of the eurozone that's what's being bailed out that's what people are saving because you know there are stereotypes the way it's being practiced in greece they're going to be an egg in the gutter for a generation and it's just going to get worse i mean the government in only just survived a vote as we're sitting here talking and then you look at what's going on in france they're going to go down the path of austerity and i can no one can convince me how that creates growth. well i mean the austerity problem is another kind of intractable thing on the one ahead and you know you'd kind of like to have governments throwing money at people so people could spend it on the other hand the people are not let's say we're turning it in taxes then say spending enough they're not say working hard enough and so the government is not getting the amount of money that it needs to pay off its debts and then becomes less credit worthy and then. the borrowing costs go up so we thought it would be

clear can i ask you i mean i absolutely agree on this i think that kind of a kind of producing a series that you could do that in the nation state level can't shoot but you can't do it the way the euro is set up now because just what you just said makes perfect sense but you can't do it to do it then you have to decide to schooling system in italy in the in the in the plumbing system in spain and that is just not something that's going to happen anytime soon nor would it be popular the idea of the eurozone from my perspective on the one hand i can see many arguments for it and on the other hand i can see many arguments against it i think at its inception there were many reasons to be skeptical but also be optimistic right now we're seeing a lot of the downside can they we capture the good side of it very very difficult call very complicated call. and i mean robert feels very strongly that the euro is just i gather the whole zone bad idea we need to bring back national sovereignty

and so on i can totally see the arguments for that i guess my main thrust here is that as a practical matter i'm more thinking about how to proceed just because it strikes me that nobody's dismantling the zone tomorrow maybe they should but i want to sort of focus my energies are trying to cobble together the best mechanisms that are in fact real world. unfortunately peter as you say the banks they have way more power than they show you people are way more solicitous to creditors than they should be and i completely agree with this certainly in the states that's been a feature of what's gone. on so it's a very social this is the rare state socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor car i'm going to let the banks off the hook here in the you're in the euro zone everything i've seen and maybe i'm just too much of a cynic here and i used to be in investment banking ok it seems to me the banks are calling all the shots every step of the way and merkel is you saying what's the to

the sarkozy saying what's the tune we're dancing to now because it's saving those banks that's what's most important isn't it. i'm not so sure about as i say if you look at the conclusion of last week's g twenty council there is no solution on this gabble charge for globally systemic banks i mean is an extremely important step forward and would have been again let's say something difficult to imagine two years ago i mean the governments did it against clearly against the lobby of the banking secretary which was certainly not a conference of all that wanted to keep a very call log of the ratio of those they had left their knowledge they would have only four this is terribly important banks a much stronger capital the market which is in fact obviously. when you go one of the the greenwood that was supposed to have come to fruition last week i mean i read it very carefully it was voluntary this voluntary that voluntary here no no yes it is it's very clear where this money come from not very clear it all comes

from taxpayers apparently what do you think about that robert the end of day it is dropping kicking down the can to make somebody else pay for it they did make these problems in the first place exactly in a large part of a hundred things i say arrange banks is actually to save president sarkozy's career he's got the french elections coming up and he doesn't want france to lose to a credit rating because i could well cost him the election so that's a key driver in his decision making. which will be faced by private lenders to greece that doesn't apply to the european central bank which is bought up greek debt it doesn't apply to the to the european union the money it's given over so really it was still be paying money to the politicians and to to the institutions of the european union but it's the private sector that would be taking taking the haircut as it's become known ok clarifying go to you and kind of maybe fuse this all together as we come to the end of the program here i mean it seems to me that democracy is so very much challenged right now in the eurozone because as we started out the program here nobody really wants to take the lead on bringing bad

news because it was mentioned on this program that sarkozy has elections coming up here governments are teetering it's very important this is where the you know the meat meets the metal here because you want to stay in power it's natural that anyone want want to but you don't want to be the person that has you know it has to preside over a budget of paid. well i mean i mean how do you get around how do you how do you to around that you get around that because there's no leadership to say well we have to do this no one wants to do that we started this is where we started the program and it just kicks the can down the road maybe maybe we want to end on a series yet maybe we want to add that i really believe no one being people have some good ideas but they don't actually know. the right thing even if they did they could get it passed and furthermore even if they didn't get it passed there'd be no way to know for sure that it was being carried out. how greece managed to fall

everybody with respect or if not for everyone at least be able to take the position in a manner that didn't get it in trouble but it had a lot of let's lessen it but it actually did what's in the world to stop people from being able to take the position that they are complying with various things away from the i'm afraid i don't know if you hate it when we were on the national player you have ended the program on the bleakest note ever ok bonnie thanks so much yesterday in london in minneapolis and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember rostock rules. this

is our city and tonight the high price of education draws thousands of students back to the streets of london but made fears a repeat of last year's wired's could be on the cards. to ram says it will keep to its nuclear program tonight even claims in the u.n. nuclear watchdog latest report that suggests this building weapons experts are worried this study is just a pretext for a preemptive attack on iran. on the leading tower of debts collapses on its knees pm berlusconi has promised resignation spog fresh market panic today and borrowing costs soaring. would say pm wednesday night here.