you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so poorly you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else and you hear see some other part of it and realized everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm sorry welcome to the big picture. wealthy british sign on the sun. spot on the right of. the. market why not. come to find out what's really happening to the global economy with my stronger for

a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune into a report on our. morning news today violence is once again flared up. these are the images the world has been seeing from the streets of china that. chinese hope for asians to rule the day . can. stand. alone welcome to crossfire gang peter lavelle the hero of crisis without end euro zone leaders and national governments continue to be at loggerheads on how to rescue a currency that has an unpredictable future with clearly started out as

a financial fiasco of the highest order is now a political disaster with few if any positive outcomes. can. start. to cross-talk the prospects for the eurozone i'm joined by robert oulds in london he is the director of the bruges group also in london we have caro well i knew he is chief executive officer at the center for european policy studies and in minneapolis we cross to clare hill she's professor at the university of minnesota law school or i folks this is cross talk i mean she can jump in anytime you want all right robert if i could go to you first and you know we can talk about the financial nuances about this i think everybody that's been following the story knows basically that the big numbers involved but you know that as we i thought last week everything had been decided i thought everything was going to be done you know as our cause a mark all they had decided everything decided to date of three hundred million

people and now we find out well not really and even the national governments there are not particularly sure what they want to do the french are just worried about their aaa rating and what's going on in greece now well maybe by the time this program airs we'll have a different scenario playing out there i hope point is it's a political fiasco more than anything else right now. well yes it is it's a political yes go it's an economic disaster it's becoming a political disaster as well certainly the case of greece and it's spreading to other european union countries such as italy disaster that was being predicted a long time ago before the single currency was actually born when he's just being talked about many people knew it would end of this way and so it's been a long predicted and we're seeing it play out as we speak this disaster so really it was predicted and really the answer to problems is to wind up the single

currency which just doesn't there might not be very easy to do clarify things out here i think one of the tragedies and looking at what's being played out with the euro crisis here is going into its second year here is that you know there seems to be so little political will in national governments because nobody wants to make the hard decisions ok because if you really push too hard for us terry you will be punished by the voters so it's this kind of kicking the can down the road as this crisis continues to snowball i mean amazingly so i mean ok the transfer for greece has been accepted but that's still very tentative because if you don't play by the rules you don't do the right thing you're not going to get any more and then everybody's a loser i mean why is this political crisis so paralyzing because it's like everyone sitting on the titanic arguing over the seating arrangement as we go right into this business of the iceberg of this crisis. well couple of things person a

lot of. everyone could predict it would end this way i'm not quite sure what he means by this but i see a lot of kicking into the moderate if not the long term i don't think we're anywhere near it and i think to so many people are potentially so i'm happy by any kind of major change because you have a bunch of beneficiaries of the system that just doesn't earn its keep and no surprise there no willing to give it up if they have strong expectations that the stuff they have led been led to believe is the case that is to say in the case of greece maybe not paying taxes so retiring early and characterizing hairdressing as a person is profession so they can retire even earlier then things like that are a sense of entitlement and you get into a mindset where someone's trying to take away something that's yours and there's so many entrenched in title in there you prefer very interesting point people you

prefer very interesting program if i can go to you in london one of the things i find very interesting in what following this crisis is that you do see how corrupt a lot of these national governments are because they have all of these clientele ism we have cronyism you have certain different differential attitudes towards the banking sector when everything's on going fine you know everyone can cover this all up but when you look at italy for example in greece then you find out who really doesn't pay taxes and who doesn't have an interest in ever paying taxes and who's taking responsibility in greece and italy at least as we speaking right now nobody really wants to be responsible. there are taught people how to overcome the problem i mean i don't think let's say you could generalize it so easily let's say there is so much corruption that maybe certain countries where there is a huge problem but already you could compare spain and italy and say that spain for example is has a huge economic problem but is governance why it why it's probably better minister of italy for example certainly has huge problems which are being revealed for the

day greece we all know them by now but there are many other countries which had a core of europe which are sort of well run of course there is still some denial of the problem some hiding of the problem for example in the banking systems but it is the thing which we have known in europe since a long time let's say it is the national champions and sometimes no sufficient willingness to recognize certain problems however i think that if you read for example the conclusion from last two weeks ago or so from the european council you see that as a clear change and we are moving rapidly to a more federal novel and look for example there is a clear statement of finger pointing to italy in the minutes of the council saying italy should happen to be increase its a retirement age to sixty seven years which is unprecedented this would never have happened in the past when you think about that rubber because it seems to me that i am kind of reiterate is that when things are going fine when you when you can lie to get into the euro and everyone carries your weight but when a crisis starts hitting then people start looking after themselves more often and

we see that why why would the northern countries of europe want to be having to have to deal with because the kind of political corruption that we see in italy and in greece in maybe to some extent in spain also is that you know they're the ones paying for this continuation of a system that really needs to reform itself and there's no political will to do that because if you do that then you can offer some sense of entitlement that i think claire was going to. well there where do to the idea of political union within the e.u. and we've just heard it it's moving towards a federal structure but that will be creating another disaster the u.p.a. a new year is creating problems but in a sense some perceive as a beneficial crisis where they can use the problems that the euro has created in the eurozone crisis to create fiscal union in a sense an economic government for the whole of the you or the eurozone states that will be a disaster will have new people in northern countries which will be fed up with

subsidising the southern countries and people in the south will be just totally fed up with the austerity measures being forced upon them by countries from in the north it will create serious divisions within the european union the attempt to have greater centralization will store up trouble for the future and it is to be greatly alarming it's greatly alarming what we call it how do you how do we deal with the convergence of of a unit because i think that's exactly what robert is getting at i mean and it's been said over and over again it's a german workers a lot different than a greek worker who are going to the beginning clear are now i am very. i agree with robert with chris i agree with robert with respect to the crowd while i suspect that i don't agree with i want respect to the solution but if the say. i think. there is there are intractable and probably ultimately irreconcilable

differences among both the financial aspects. of the country it's a question you just have different practices that are different and it is very strongly embedded kind of level. robert me think well this is so serious and so bad that we have to try to blow it up i am not sure what we do but i don't think that realistically people other care for the moderate turn might tell themselves they're like doing that ok if i go to you in london how long can the eurozone kick the can down the road and who's going to pay for it because as we're speaking right now you're getting so many different points of view i mean everyone agrees it has to be solved ok wow well that's a that's a great consensus but i mean there's still different ways of having you have to approach it considering last week apart everyone was told it was being rather go up now that's not the case nor would we know what is to be seen this crisis for the last two years and if you compare it to two years ago we definitely made things

much more a lot of things which are debatable to do we know what needs to do what is traditionally changed what is structurally change the money's been thrown at the problem but what structurally has changed means are the wrong we have made we have made adjustments we have made decisions for so beach were unimaginable two years ago for example if we change the lisbon treaty for example it was a new foreign policy on the bailout clause also know that as a bailiff we need to have a third is to change the lisbon treaty letter to have a more fertile structure but it can also look at the conclusion from two weeks ago when he said look we need to have a separate eurozone council we need to have be much stronger government of course it should have been decided much earlier i fully agree with this but you really are somewhere i mean in the same situation as the united states was at a civil war in the mid nineteenth century i mean we are in a form of an economic it's not a good healthy turning out and a good. sense that it had to be will start to have a more survivable structure the keeping has delegated out there exceptions most

common at the sovereignty gradually move to the european level and it's no longer national that i want otherwise argue the second part of the program rather go ahead look at how we've elected go ahead robert jump himself and he was not moved to a center which is unaccountable which has been a root cause of the disaster which is in unfolding power should be returned to the nation states from people that we've actually elected who can actually dismissive and elect at elections and that will respond to the people's needs and the sponsor the different conditions of each individual country centralization in amassing power brussels in the european union level will just create further difficulties for the future we see it's unfolding for the euro does not suit all member states and neither would a centralized economic government for the european union that will not be in our interest is just too different and too diverse and let's try some democracy and returning powers back to the nation state ok where you want to jump in there. can i ask robert well i'd like to ask robert

a question which is to say i understand that he sees this is where we ought to be and i can certainly see the merits in that position i guess the two questions i have is first robert do you in fact expect this to happen and if so what is the route by which it would happen one of the reasons i asked this question is because you know when i say kicking the can i'm fully mindful of going to tell us as well different things have happened different things are being contemplated creditor's the chance of them taking a fifty percent haircut all of this again thanks larry we've been here we've been we've only been here. in this part of the program after a short break we'll continue our spirit to be on the year of state party.

a very warm welcome to you this is your news today protesters on the wall street survey at. leas intense a good chance to begin with the status of the huge experiment. with. this rap music in which it snows lucilla trying to make sense of global economy and it's on changelings us financial temple the reason to maintain our confidence in long kids and. wants to be seen trade imbalances recession look the nations close to collapsing a subprime loan close. to fail switchblade banks again feel

a little like the us crashing seven and. seeing flames it just isn't enough in st the i. am just programs increase the total economy. be official ante up location chobani phone i pod touch from the i choose option. john she lied on the go. video on demand on cheesemonger bold colors and r.s.s. feeds now in the palm of your. machine on the dot com.

to take you. to the. welcome back across town people golf drive you are having a very spirited debate about the crisis of the year. well robert doesn't happen to you after i crossed i think you're on trial do you

want to answer claire's question how does. the nation states and countries can even exit the european union if they so wish in fact most people in britain would actually favor that option and the euro can be dismantled just like the ruble zone was dismantled when the soviet union collapsed the countries can restore their own common sense and that will actually be to their benefit it will free up their markets from being dominated by german german exports which benefit from the euro because it favors their unit labor costs it will help their help them gain competitiveness just like when britain exits it's the precursor to the euro the exchange rate mechanism which picked the u.k.'s common c.p.l. pound sterling to the deutsche mark when the u.k. left its economy grew after the common seat was devalued the same would happen for germany and italy would be an important part not the whole picture the important part of those countries regaining competitiveness and beginning to grow again

because that is the ultimate answer to the problems of the southern european countries is a distinct lack of growth. italy has had next to no growth for a decade can you sitting at a serious recession if they were to leave the euro it would help that i can see in your face you want to answer clara where you are you satisfied because out of us. yes ok you know i understand that robert finds this desirable state of affairs and i understand that logistically of course we know a variety of routes to get to the place where robert wants to go the question i have is the feasibility given the political climate i mean just as we were talking before about how people don't have political will how is a whole country that has expectations of paying very few taxes and getting a lot of government benefits how is that going to be changed around i also want to know the answer the question so many people having trenched interests that how would the endeavor work to say they have the people who believe or understand that

this is the right way to go to in fact persuade people who are going to be massively hurt and dislocated by it to proceed in that direction you know i mean you're damned if you do damned if you do that very question. because first go back to london first let me go back i think it's very interesting i mean what is the choice is really before the populations of the eurozone is it is it to save the currency or to save the union can you do both simultaneously or do you choose one and if i'm saying you choose the union you go political union because only a political union can support a euro ultimately because if you have a fiscal side either you leave it all the way or the other direction you can't have this little ground that they've had for the last decade. and there's particular said that's what i just mentioned a moment ago all it is a choice between national sovereignty and federalism and we need to accept that for certain decisions we have done it for monetary union but not for economic union

that things have to be decided at the center say for the seventeen not necessarily for the twenty seven and no longer at the member state level for example if greece last week were to have voted in a referendum to have passed that and left the choice to believe citizens it would have meant that greece greek citizens would have got a veto on fact on economic governance within the euro zone which is almost unheard of i said there should be there couldn't be a fatal against it of course all member states can have organizations but if there is a majority deciding in a certain sense you have to go in a certain sense and that's what needs to go on but that is the good thing of this crisis in the same boat you see we are clearly moving this direction also because the abilities are lies you see the engineers say they only see the losing their jobs as a good side to this crisis. understandingly no i said there's only because it's on the streets people we know and you say there's a good thing to these crises and that some political project some political found fantasy held by a small political class small people across the class fear was

a greater interests to their own interests rather than protecting their own interests and the people that work in their countries that astounds me and astounding thing to say oh yes you want to reply to that go ahead and i just. read it so it's very simple to say we have to look back to the period ninety ninety two ninety ninety four when you had the similar situation as we have to not knowledge or not such a deep recession but also recession we had competitive do of liberation for example in italy almost in spain and we have to look at the results and imagine ourselves if there's going to happen today let's say well it is going to be better yes or no if the euro breaks down let's say this will be a disaster for the money conference primarily for germany the motor of economic growth in europe at the moment you know clarifying what do you mean and another element of all germany was. going to do you know what i want to go to choir here the thing is that i'm a lot of the great skeptics of the way the eurozone has been dealing with this is

that really at the center of it all is the banks i mean it's not saving countries it's not saving populations it's saving a banking class and when you have political elites that are so deferential to the financial system of the eurozone that's what's being bailed out that's what people are saving because you know there are scared he the way it's being practiced in greece they're going to be in a good in the gutter for a generation and it's just going to get worse i mean the government in really just survived a vote as we're sitting here talking and then you look at what's going on in france they're going to go down the path of austerity and i can no one can convince me how about it creates growth. well i mean the austerity problem is another kind of intractable thing on the one ahead and you know you'd kind of like to have governments throwing money at people so people could spend it on the upper hand of people or not let's say returning it in taxes then say spending enough working hard enough and so the government is getting the amount of

money that it needs to pay off its debts and then becomes less credit worthy and then. the borrowing costs go up so we thought you know where's the cliff going ask you i mean absolutely in this. series if you could do that or the new should street level can't shoot but you can't do it the way the euro is set up now because just what you just said makes perfect sense but you can't do it to do it you have to have brussels decide to schooling system in italy in the in the in the plumbing system in spain and that is this is not something that's going to happen anytime soon nor would it be popular the idea of the eurozone from my perspective on the one hand i can see many arguments for it and on the other hand i can see many arguments against it i think at its inception there were many reasons to be skeptical but also be optimistic right now we're seeing a lot of the downside can they we capture the good side of it very very difficult

car very complicated. and i mean robert feels very strongly that the euro is just i gather the whole zone bad idea we need to bring back national sovereignty and so on i can totally see the arguments for that i guess my main thrust here is that as a practical matter i'm more thinking about how to proceed just because it strikes me that nobody's this tomorrow maybe they should but i want to sort of focus my energies and try to cobble together the best mechanisms that are in fact we are a world. unfortunately peter as you say the banks they have way more power than they show you are way more solicitous to creditors than they should be and i completely agree with this certainly in the states that's been the feature of what's gone. on so it's a very social this is a rare it's socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor car i'm going to let the banks off the hook here in the you're in the euro zone everything i've seen in

maybe i'm just too much of a cynic here and i used to be in investment banking ok it seems to me the banks are calling all the shots every step of the way and merkel is saying what's there to sarkozy saying what's the tune we're dancing to now because it's saving those banks that's what's most important isn't it. i'm not so sure about to save you a look at the conclusion of last week's g. twenty cults all business even on this particular charge for globally since there mick banks is an extremely important step forward and would have been. difficult to imagine two years ago i mean the governments that are against clearly against the lobby of the banking speculative which was certainly not. wanted to keep. the rituals as they have lost their knowledge they would have only for instance some of the important banks a much stronger capital market which in effect obviously you have. one of the greenwood that was supposed to have come to fruition last week i mean i read it very carefully it was voluntary this voluntary their voluntary hero yes it is it's

very clear and where is this money come from not very clear it comes from taxpayers apparently what do you think about that robert levy and if they it is dropping kicking down the can to make somebody else pay for it they didn't make these problems in the first place exactly in a large part of a hundred things i say arrange banks is actually to save president sarkozy's career he's got the french elections coming up and he doesn't want france to lose its credit rating because i could well cost him the election so that's a key driver in use decision making. which will be faced by private lenders to greece that doesn't apply to the european central bank which is bought up greek debt it doesn't apply to this in the european union and money it's given over so really it was still be paying money to the politicians and to to the institutions of the european union but it's the private sector that would be taking taking the haircut as it's become known ok clarifying going to be fused this all together as

we come to the end of the program here i mean it seems to me that democracy is so very much challenged right now in the eurozone because as we started out the program here nobody really wants to take the lead on bringing bad news because it was mentioned on this program that our cause he has elections coming up here governments are teetering it's very unlikely this is where it will be you know to meet the metal here because you want to stay in power it's natural that anyone want to but you don't want to be the person that has you know it has to go preside over a budget of pain. well i mean i mean how do you get around i mean how do you around the axle how do you get around that because there's no leadership to say well you have to do this no one wants to do that we started this is where we started the program and it just kicks the can down the road when it maybe we want to end on a serious yet maybe we want to and i really believe you know ok one of the people have some good ideas but they don't actually know. the right thing even if they did

get it passed and furthermore even if they didn't get it passed there'd be no way to know for sure that it was being carried out. how greece managed to fool everybody with respect or not for everyone at least be able to take the position in a matter of the didn't get in trouble but it had a lot of let's less than it actually did what's on the wall to stop people from being able to take the position that they are complying with various things around afraid i don't know if you. can reckon it's clear you have ended the program on the bleakest note ever ok bonnie thanks so much against today in london please and thanks to our viewers for watching if you are to see you next time remember rostock three. storm.

los angeles to chicago to birmingham twenty trauma centers have closed since two thousand three hundred one is not enough inpatient beds not in the third emergency department beds and not in the nurses from them those that take care of all the people who are the only real health care system that we have in the city of los angeles is the los angeles fire department in fact when i started my venture is a firefighter i didn't want to be a mask i started out going to just do fire fighting it's about eighty two percent of what we do the fire departments medical but we had a rescue couple weeks ago waited four hours for it i've waited sometimes three hours but i was it's a same francis in lynnwood for four hours and fifty minutes standing against a wall of patients and we have a federal law that mandates that you can't turn no one away who seeks care in the emergency room.