and economic woes in the west stay with us. hello and welcome to cross talk time peter about china's maneuvering our chinese fortunes faring during the global financial crisis and the euro zone fiasco political uncertainty in the u.s. and the arab spring is china and that gaynor is the world undergoes massive economic and geopolitical shifts and as the world changes will china take on

a greater leadership role. cross-talk china's growing influence i'm joined by greg audrey in irvine he's an entrepreneur and co-author of death by china in miami we have already shankar he has to ford motor company chair in global business management at ohio state university and in beijing we cross to doris nesbitt she's the director of the nesbitt china institute all right folks you have difference a points of view on this and i want you to show my viewers ok but first marcia people say that china is set to save the world i don't know about that but there is little doubt that over the last decade asia and china specifically has been steadily moving to the fore of the global economy and in the wake of the two thousand and eight credit crunch which shattered the western presidential parthenon and triggered europe's own sovereign debt crisis experts say china's role and power in global affairs is more palpable than ever growing economic might is reflected in

the some talk over beijing's capacity to contribute to the hero zones bailout fund the decision has not been finalized the european leaders and the i.m.f. have all welcomed the prospect of an investment which could arrange the truth fifty and a hundred billion dollars. i believe a prompt resolution for european debt is very important to the stability of finance trade and economy. if china does inject cash into the euro zone it would mark an unprecedented shift in global power dynamics and make china a financial power on par with the u.s. but this wouldn't be the first time that the two countries jousted for a while now the u.s. has laid claims that china is under valuing its currency. they continue to try to game the system to their advantage and our disadvantage so i think it's appropriate and fitting and timely for us to be standing up and saying this is this is not acceptable ultimately however saving the eurozone and the u.s.

is in china's own economic interests meanwhile economists are already warning of contagion threat if the crisis unravels and some have pointed to the country's slow growth as a sign of a spillover effect concerns that beijing has dismissed. that you know who owns it is trying to say that the national economy is generally on the right track and is benefiting from the macro control policies on the domestic front china's been further tightening the screws on internet freedom whether it's a sign of its internal vulnerability in the world by popular uprisings is unclear but a three day media conference last week and it was a whole slew of measures aimed at stopping what the chinese call the spread of harmful information but irrespective it seems like china is going to go its way well let's talk about which way it's going to go encoded in miami if i go to you first year i mean which most topical right now is whether the chinese will bail out the europeans bail out to your euro zone or if they do what would they get out of it well first of all i think that you know the rise of china has been. you know

unfolding fairly fairly quickly. in my book the chinese century you know about six seven years ago i you know i predicted that china will become world largest economy in twenty twenty five and we are mid-way through that through that process so this is not entirely unpredictable i mean you know we have both the united states and europe that are really modern mountain of that there are only two countries out there that have the resources to help them out one is japan which is also being somewhat reluctant global player with a lot of the west to key issues to solve and then of course china you know you have mountain of trillions of reserves were. sinking deeper into the debt hole this was i think you know quite predictable ok great if i can go to you in irvine and the chinese have been very hesitant because they see that the europeans

just can't get their house in order they've created such an utter mess of their economies with this debt crisis here why would the chinese want to get in there and and it will we see the euro fail half year from now. you know first of all we've got to be clear when the chinese loan money to america or to europe it's not because they like them it's merely to gain political advantage you know for which are economic exploitation like every other country and there's a moral here that even if that is any different than other countries do i mean every country goes after self interest right and geopolitical interest as well. no where near is cutting and strategic as china does and we've got to be clear that finding our moral hazard in keeping us behaving badly either in europe or the united states is not in china's long term best interest there it's always want to see the west continue to harm itself and doris you want to jump in there go right ahead. yes i was just going to say who sets the measure i mean who

decides what's good and bad behavior you know i think we're at a point where the west has to think of pollack who decides what's good and bad are we really in the procession given all the problems we have to talk top down to china and say what we decide to score what and what we think is good and what you would do is i think that the approach works much more would be what can we do to kiev that will solve the problems ok greg you want to reply to that do you think that he decides to measure very good question you know well you know the. moral equivalency arguments really interesting until you come to face somebody who is truly evil we went through this whole same argument in the 1930's don't criticize the germans a lot of american companies went over there and set up business and said it's not our position here in europe when you call you're creating the borders you're equating china of today to nazi germany of the one nine hundred thirty s.

. absolutely although i think you know china is somewhere worse as far as volume of scale and the level of censorship that's happening internally there but clearly the repression they put on there i was right next upon as the rest of the world put together are you saying i object absolute objective moral values let's get it in miami go ahead. no no i mean maybe object i mean. you know equate the two together you know and that's a germany is on a completely different level i mean you know a country that has been probably the worst atrocities that we have witnessed in the in human civilization so with all respect i mean i would not put china out there which i discovered as perceived and i think you can result in any other totalitarian regime in history doris you want to reply to that here are you writing a document and you are scared as it happens so no to me. you know you open your book i miss talking we were squatting with her mach two chinaman

square that was in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine i don't know when you have been to china for the last time and i don't know what how many chinese weeks ago you have been talking you know we have we got a twenty six very similar story and you say mainland china and not and not call well. you know we are in china right now and we have been talking last week in with people of chengdu where they really try and work on i have been here on the integration to get people into an economic growth to rural population. they young people are following with each other via internet it's not that there is no communication that internet certainly can be called a second party in china and it's certainly certain scenes are regulated gets without though but china is in the process of stabbing each own. off

running the country ok call greg it's an interesting point i mean china china is a very good interview if i can interject here if i could interject here i mean in the west china is criticized because it is not in line with the washington consensus if i can use that term here i mean china is a rising power the west is steadily steadily declining ok i mean so it really is the west has to adjust itself to a rising china and india with its own relative decline would you agree with that the same argument was made about the declining british empire at the beginning of the twentieth century and how the new way it was this. fascist states in europe. so countries that are willing to exploit their people to any level are always able to achieve quick turnarounds we saw that really we saw that in germany we saw that at the beginning of the soviet and it's not sustainable but that's how they do i really i mean i've seen the people standing behind the rear of an ox with a wooden plow while the party members in shanghai in the business people in

shanghai in moscow party like there's no tomorrow i've seen little children who are going to die because of lack of a five thousand dollars surgery because their health care system is an absolute joke did you want to jump in there go ahead in miami yeah yeah yeah yeah i mean i mean first first of all i mean again and i want to say in in a very very clear clear fashion yeah these no question that you know the chinese ease of bed regime as far as as morality is concerned to put it at the same as a regime that is old and eyes messmate is of people you know because of their you know religion though otherwise you know clean nation where you are called i'll go and tell your own having said that having said that you called even though. he's not only let me finish been in jail or disappeared don't you go ahead and finish up in miami go ahead yeah i don't think you can equate it close to training camp i'm very sorry i think you're entirely wrong but let me finish my point having said

that they use no question that china is going to extract a heavy price for any but the. bail out my own view is that they are going to do it in a more this way there would be a lot of strings attached of course i do not buy the voices coming out of the e.u. and they did state they would not be any strings attached that will be a lot of strings attached but again it is in the china's interest that its main markets the u.s. remain able to buy you know a chinese product i don't think it is. question about that ok greg i want to ask you a question i mean what china has benefited so much from the current economic order in the world right now i mean they're going to still continue to work as a partner is doris tried to point out you want to demonize them into an enemy but it's in their own interest to keep the order going the way it is. exactly the way

that it's an interest that a drug dealer has in his customer being able to continue to buy products that are doing them economic harm sustaining europe's bad behavior sustaining america's grab behaviors that is knocking on this one we're going to a short break and we've got a lot more to talk on the last day and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on china stay with r.t. . if you want to. discover it. communicate with the want to. test yourself and become free.

see what nature can give you. from los angeles to chicago to birmingham twenty trauma centers have closed since two thousand severe problem is not enough in-patient beds not enough earth emergency department beds and not enough nurses some nando's that to take care of all the people who are the only real health care system that we have in the city of los angeles is the los angeles fire department in fact when i started my venture is a firefighter i didn't want to be around so i started out going to just do fire fighting it's about eighty two percent of what we do the fire departments medical i've had a rescue couple weeks i waited four hours for i've waited sometimes three hours but i was it's a same francis in lynnwood for four hours and fifty minutes standing against a wall with a patient and we have a federal law that mandates that you can't turn no one away who seeks care in an emergency room.

we have the most expensive health care system in the world and it's probably in value in the least. i. live.

live just. live to. live to. live. welcome back to crossfire computer all about the true mind you were discussing china's increasing power. limited. to live. ok i know you want to jump in right here out and you want to react to what doug gregg said right before the break so go right ahead. yeah i think we have one common ground and that is that china has pointed out millions hundreds of millions of people out of poverty to a relatively modest wealth. you know the dif an issue of human rights includes in

china that people have something to eat that people have a hope that people have a future and in judging china which is a very emotional attachment as we can see when we are here when we listen to what we have to say and you have to consider we have china came from where it started and if you look around china we're not only in cities like beijing or shanghai we are on the countryside and if you see that children of parents who can not read i'm not having the ability and the the offer to visit the school or to have distant learning so that they are all took for life has increased and improved dramatically you know you cannot always see look at china and say ok you cannot always throw the government clearly you cannot almost all the government but life does not only content in overthrowing governments life it is that you can fulfill your dreams

that you can create your child that you can work create a family all of this is very much in the needs of the chinese people have more and more of it. yeah yeah i get that but i don't want to hear the story that china has a communist government has raised two hundred million people out of poverty they didn't raise anybody out of poverty hard working intelligent chinese people raise their selves out of poverty with the boot lifted just a little bit in sharing for the chinese government in this way is like. the last horse in the kentucky derby japan korea taiwan singapore thailand all these other asian nations pull. themselves up way before china the only thing the chinese government did was hold its people back longer so that they could be the very last people to achieve that sort of lifestyle it's a tragedy it isn't religion if i were you happy because i'm going to miami here i mean i think most reason people would say the chinese have done

a pretty good job with the economic policy at least they're not in mired in debt like their competitors in the european union the united states i mean they've certainly done some some very positive things now you could say also with their foreign economic policy they're just only interested in self interest they don't have all the baggage that the west has about humanitarian interventions and all of these other things mean the chinese should go on their own way i mean there's something to be said about that right right i mean. i'm going. to miami where i'm afraid you'll have your chance is going to miami greg greg mugabe's a bad date or i hope you will be brought to the hague that has nothing to do with it i mean we talk about china china you know the whole issue is always more complex that the excuse me the picture is always more complex than the one sided argument that they hear here all in on both sides yes does the chinese leadership have considerable achievement i don't think there's any question about it when you're

talking about you know literacy and the like is there a heavy very heavy price being paid by individuals because of the policies of you know more than is asian and economic growth no question about it i mean i can give you a very specific example of myself a trade off you know childhood cancer free child and things that are not being taken care of and so forth there is no question about that as well the reality is is always much more complex than it seems. you want to see a democracy in china eventually. of course yes. can it have been it was will it happen that once i am not so sure i want to remind everyone did it with the exception of taiwan there was really no precedent off. a democratic

chinese society ok it may take such a time as they want it all that i heard it eventually it was ok great i mean it was me why should we assume if i go back to greg here in irvine and why should we assume china were to go down the world the path of democratization as we all would understand it why would it have to be a western liberal model can't they have a model that is more representative of their society and values go ahead. i didn't say that i just say we need a model that doesn't involve killing a lot of people locking them up in jails because of their religious beliefs and then intentionally exploiting the weaknesses of the western governments in order to bring them down faster my concern with china's internal behavior in this conversation is mostly to say to you i have to if they treat their own people this way why would you expect them to treat you fairly and in economic or business contractual relationship and they don't they're systemic cheaters and liars ok doris you have a very strong. critique of china there how do you react to that i know we lost you

for a second so. respond to what you did here ok well you know i think that one can prove anything and everything if you look at a certain point if you choose certain points looking at the u.s. the picture can be very grim why it can be very bright so that can be saying said about china which are not bright and they're things that are very good but consider one thing china is only thirty years. into reform and opening up where was the u.s. circuit years after the constitution was written where was the u.s. only more than ok there is a go when the blacks were still. oh come on you know jim if john was here he could tell you first have firsthand how the riots were against the blacks how he was taking share in sit ins because the blacks couldn't sit go to a restaurant so you know the point is we are not i am not here to defend the

government but i want to say what we observe and what we observe is that china is on the path and it has done a very good job it has its flaws there are lots of things where it has to improve including the environment corruption the freedom of speech concerning the government of course nobody would deny that but. you cannot only look at one side and neglect everything that's positive if you do that with us all with your although you're going to have picture there as well greg you want to reply to that because i'd like to talk about your point i'd also like to talk about china and china taking more responsibility on the global stage because it is the second largest economy in the world and will surpass the united states soon but it's still not flexing its diplomatic and political responsibilities i would say commensurate with the size do you think about that. well let me just first of all say the key to

being able to improve yourself over time is freedom of speech criticism and so yes the u.s. is committed some terrible sense at home and around the world but the thing that's important is that we had made it we publicly flogged ourselves for it and we try to prove the chinese government's incapable of doing that now regarding their position around the world they are very cautious and i think the key thing everybody needs to understand is that in china. politics lead economics as opposed to in europe in united states where the goal of politics is trying to achieve a better economic state for the people in china the goal of economics is to keep the chinese communist party in power and that's why they allow improvement not because they care about those kids out in your non-problems it's only because they want the boys in beijing to stay in power ok or do you think actually it's really very exaggeration it's not really very sunshine is self interest it's the self interest of the communist party this is what we just heard. none of us i'm sorry no but i think. the system go ahead to live to a different question here first of all eat so happens that in the eighty's the

interest off the communist regime to provide economic prosperity i don't think there is any question about it. it happens to be good for the country i mean to a great extent so the fact that these two objectives are consistent you know is something that we should do we should keep in mind of course the regime would like to stay in power of course it's a regime for which you cannot mix prosperity is even more important for any other regime nevertheless it is something that it's creates a lot of good for the chinese people as well so that we need to keep in mind going back to your earlier question yes china is a reluctant player on a global scene and other reasons because it is a relatively new player on global scene and there are all that the two we play a remains to be seen what we have heard so far with china ease against the so-called

us ag of money what we have observed so far is that china is unfortunately willing to engage with a lot of bad regime that each should not engage but all in all it's still a fairly reluctant player and may i say that one reason why china is hesitant about broad variety and more also. the european union is really put then shouted back home when he will are increasingly concerned that you know chinese resources will go down. sinking a hole and that money will never be seen again ok doris if i can go to you there is another historical precedent out there was of an emerging power that the international community the international architecture didn't accept very well and that was germany at the end of the nineteenth and beginning twentieth century do you see that we've learned any lessons there because china is coming up very very fast and particularly as the economic global crisis is affecting the west the most i mean this is

a time for china it's an opportunity for china but also there are they still can remain hesitant and really stepping up on the stage a lot more when the world really needs more leadership. while but does the world allow try not to take pocket as as part of the global community i mean just listen to what has it has been said during this show it has been offended. and and at the same time people say well why don't they tell of a bigger share well china will take its share and it has it's growing and has its also maturing in its system it's on the global community wrote it will grow but it's sort of flying against very heavy headwinds because everybody tells you how terrible you up and on the other hand come she addict overall response ability with you wish we don't want to give you because you're not trustworthy so you know you can offer on one hand say you are not worth having responsive like

a and you are saying you very much to play in with you in front of time we've run out of time here we'll find out later if china will save the world many thanks to my guests today in miami irvine and in beijing and thanks to our viewers for watching us here our team see you next time members crossed up. in. the news today violence is once again flared up. these are the images the world has been seeing from the streets of canada. trying to operations around.

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