it's. back there with a look at the top stories italy's senate rushes to vote through in a sturdy plan to clear the way for a new government one silvio berlusconi seven down but many say the debt reduction measures are too late to keep want to ease largest economies from following the food stamps of greece and portugal. falling for billions companies from countries a two cardinal even campaign look to cash in on reconstruction lucrative contracts

in the pipeline or spark new questions over the real motives for military strides. russian space x. birds are struggling to fix technical problems on board a program launched martian moon a few days ago the ambitious interplanetary mission was aimed at getting a soil sample from the mood of phobos to a better knowledge of how the universe is our. next leader of al and his crosstime gas explorer china's position as an emerging superpower and the political and economic woes in the west. twenty years ago and largest country in the. disappearance of. what had been a change. to teach began a journey. where did it take to. you

can. start. to think if you want to. follow in welcome to cross talk a little china's maneuvering our chinese fortunes faring during the global financial crisis the eurozone fiasco political uncertainty in the u.s. and the arab spring is china and then again or is the world undergoes massive economic and geopolitical shifts and as the world changes will china take on a greater leadership role. came. across not china's growing influence i'm joined by greg audrey in irvine he's an entrepreneur and co-author of death by china in miami we have only shankar he used to ford motor company chair in global business management at ohio state university

and in beijing we crossed to doris nesbitt she's the director of the nesbitt china institute all right folks you have difference of points of view on this and i want you to show my viewers ok but first people say china is set to save the world well i don't know about that but there is little doubt that over the last decade asia and china specifically has been steadily moving to the fore of the global economy and in the wake of the two thousand and eight credit crunch which shattered the western presidential price and triggered europe's own sovereign debt crisis experts say china's role and power in global affairs is more palpable than ever growing economic might is reflected in the some talk over beijing's capacity to contribute to the hero zones bailout fund the decision has not been finalized the european leaders and the i.m.f. have all welcomed the prospect of an investment which could range the truth fifty and a hundred billion dollars the sound. i believe the resolution for european debt is very old and stability to finance trade and economy. if china doesn't check

cashing to the eurozone it would mark unprecedented chicken global power dynamics and make china a financial power on par with the u.s. but this wouldn't be the first time that the two countries for a while now the u.s. has laid claims that china is under valuing its currency they continue to try to game the system to their advantage and our disadvantage so i think it's appropriate and fitting and timely for us to be standing up and saying this is this is not acceptable ultimately however saving the eurozone and the u.s. is in china's own economic interests meanwhile economists are already warning of contagion thread if the crisis unravels and some have pointed to the country's slow growth as a sign of a spill over effect concerns that beijing has dismissed. if humans and our own rule is that you know who owns it is trying to say that the national economy is generally on the right track and is benefiting from macro control policies on the

domestic front china's been further tightening the screws on internet freedom whether it's a sign of its internal vulnerability in the world by popular uprisings is unclear but it's three and a media conference last week and it was a whole slew of measures and that's not what the chinese call the spread of harmful information but irrespective seems like china is going to go its way and let's talk about which way it's going to go encoded in miami if i go to you first year i mean what's most topical right now is well whether the chinese will bail out the europeans bail out to your euro zone i usually do but when they get out of it well first of all i think. you know the rise of china has been. you know unfolding fairly fairly quickly. my book the chinese century you know about six seven years ago i you know i predicted that china would become world largest economy in twenty twenty five and we are made the way through that through that process so this is not entirely unpredictable i mean you know we have both the united states and

europe that are really mired in mountain of that there are only two countries out there that have the resources to help them out one is japan which is also somewhat reluctant global player with a lot of the rest of the issues to solve and then of course china you know you have their moment of trillions of reserves were. sinking deeper into the debt hole this was i think you know quite predictable ok great if i can go to you in irvine and the chinese have been very hesitant because they see that the europeans just can't get their house in order it created such a utter mess of their economies with this debt crisis here why would the chinese want to get in there and and it will see the euro feel half year from now. you know first of all we've got to be clear when the chinese loan money to america already europe it's not because they like them it's really to gain political advantage you

know for which are economic exploitation like every other country in that region is it is any different than other countries do i mean every country goes after self interest right and geopolitical interest as well. is nowhere near is cutting them strategic is china does and we've got to be clear that funding our moral hazard in keeping us behaving badly either in europe or the united states is not in china's long term best interest either it's. wanting to see the west continue to harm itself i do if you want to jump in there go right ahead. yes i was just going to say who sets the measure i mean who decides what's good and bad behavior you know i think we're at a point where the west has to think of all who decides what's good and bad are we really in the position i would given all the problems we have just talked top down to china and say what we decide this chord and what we think is good and what

do you want to whisper i think that people approach which much more would be what can we do to kiev or to solve the problems ok great you want to reply to that do you think he decides to measure very good question you know well you know the. moral equivalency arguments really interesting until you come to face somebody who is truly evil we went through this whole same argument in the 1930's don't criticize the germans a lot of american companies whatever their set up business and said it's not our business so you're here if you create a board you're equating china of today to nazi germany of the one nine hundred thirty s. . absolutely although i think you know china is some way worse as far as volume of scale and the level of censorship that's happening internally there but clearly the repression they put on their rights and honestly the rest of the world put together are you saying i object absolute objective moral values all right let's go do it in miami go ahead. no no i mean any object i mean.

you know equate the two together you know and that's germany is on a completely different level i mean you know a country that there's been probably the worst atrocities that we have witnessed in your materializations so with all respect i mean i would not put china out there which i ask the minister seen him i think it was all in the other totalitarian regime in history doris you want to reply i did not hear. about it and you are scared a lot to me. you know you open your poor car misaki we were squatting. mach two can a man square that was in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine i don't know when you have been to china for the last time and i don't know what how many chinese weeks ago you have been talking you know we have we we you privately sector in our studios in mainland china and not and not caught well. you know we are in

china right now and we have been talking last week in what people often do where they really try and work when i've been here on the integration to get people in through an economic growth the rural population are they young people are going with each other by internet it's not that there is no communication. internet certainly can be called the second party in china and it's certainly certain things are regulated that's what are welcome but china is in the process of establishing each own way of running the country ok crazy to actually point i mean china china's economy like you know if i can interject here for a commuter jet here i mean in the west chinese criticized because it is not in line with the washington consensus if i can use that term here i mean china is a rising power the west is still it is middle steadily. lighning ok i mean so it really is the west has to adjust itself to

a rising china and india with its own relative decline would you agree with that the same argument was made about the declining british empire at the beginning of the twentieth century and how the new way it was this. and the fascist states in europe. so countries that are willing to exploit their people to any level are always able to achieve quick turnarounds we saw that really we saw that in germany we saw that at the beginning of the soviet union it's not sustainable but that's how do i i mean i've seen the people standing behind the rear of an ox with a wooden plow while the party members in shanghai in the business people in shanghai in moscow party like there's no tomorrow i've seen little children who are going to die because of lack of a five thousand dollars surgery because their health care system is an absolute joke did you want to jump in there go ahead in miami yeah yeah yeah yeah i mean i mean first first of all i mean again and i want to say in a very very clear clear fashion yeah these no question that you know the chinese is

a bad regime as far as as moralities is concerned to put it at the same lab as a regime that is old is a mess murders of entire people you know because of their you know religion or otherwise you know a clean nation where you have all that although you are your own having said that having said that you called. in jail or disappeared and finish up in miami go ahead yeah i don't think you can equate it because the train he kept i'm very sorry i think you're entirely wrong but let me finish my point having said that they is no question that china is going to extract a heavy price for any but the. bailout my own view is that they are going to do it in a more this way and there will be a lot of strings attached of course i do not buy the voices coming out of the e.u. united states it would not be any better there will be

a lot of string attached but again he's in the the in china's interest their main markets the the u.s. remain able to buy you know a chinese product i don't think it is. question about that ok greg i want to ask you a question i mean what china has benefited so much from the current economic order in the world right now i mean they're going to still continue to work as a partner is doris try to point out you want to demonize them into an enemy but it's in their own interest to keep the order going to way it is. exactly the way that it's an interest that a drug dealer has in his customer being able to continue to buy products that are doing the back of our car sustaining europe's bad behavior sustaining americans have behaviors that are is not a on this planet we're going to we're short break and we've got a lot more ahead on the last three and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on china's state department.

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a. welcome back to crossfire computer all about the true mind you were discussing china's increasing power. play can. lead. doris i know you want to jump in right here out and you want to react to what dr greg said i did before the break so go right ahead. yeah i think we have from common ground and that is that china has. pointed out millions hundreds of millions of people out of paul the key to a relatively modest wealth. you know the finishing of human rights influence in china that people have something to eat that people have a hope that people have a future and in charge in china which is a very emotional attachment as we can see when we are here when we listen to what

we have to say. you have to consider we have china came from where it started and if you look around china we're not only in cities like beijing or shanghai we are on the countryside and if you see the children of parents who can not read i'm not having the ability. that often to visit the school or to afghanistan to learning so that they're all true for life has increased and improved dramatically you know you can always see look at china and say ok you cannot always throw the government here you cannot overstate the problem but life is not only content in overthrowing problem it's life is that you can fulfill your dreams that you can create your child that you can recreate a family all of this is very much in the needs of the chinese people and they

have more and more of it. yeah ok i get that but i don't want to hear the story that china has communist government has raised two hundred million people out of poverty they didn't raise anybody out of poverty hard working intelligent chinese people raised their selves out of poverty where the boot lifted just a little bit insuring for the chinese government in this way is like. the last horse in the kentucky derby japan korea taiwan singapore thailand all these are very asian nations. hold themselves up way before chided the only thing the chinese government did was hold its people back longer so that they could be the very last people to achieve that sort of lifestyle it's a tragedy it isn't for you i didn't think it and i know you're happy if i'm going to miami here i mean i think most reason people would say the chinese have done a pretty good job with the economic policy at least they're not in mired in debt like their competitors in the european union the united states i mean they've certainly done some some very positive things now you could say also with their

foreign economic policy they're just only interested in self-interest they don't have all the baggage that the west has about humanitarian interventions and all these other things mean the chinese should go on their own way i mean there's something to be said about that right. as i go in a little bit i want to. i mean. it's going to miami greg is a bit of the paper i hope you will be brought to the hague that has nothing to do with it i mean we're told by china china you know the whole issue is always more complex that the excuse me the picture is always more complex than the one sided argument that they hear here on the both sides yes does the cheney's leadership have conceded ability of men i don't think there's any question about it when you're talking about you know literacy and the like is there a heavy very heavy price being paid by individuals because of the policies of you know most of these asian and economic growth no

question about it i mean i can give you a very specific example of myself trade off you know childhood cancer and things that are not being taken care of and so forth these no question about that as well the reality is is always much more complex than it seems. you want to see a democracy in china eventually. of course yes. can it happen it was will it happen it once i am not so sure i want to remind everyone did it with the exception of pe one there was really no precedent of. a democratic chinese society it ok you may think of such a time you want it all but i heard it eventually was ok great i mean it was me why should we assume if i go back to grade here in irvine and why should we assume

china were to go down the world the path of democratization as we all would understand it why would it have to be a western liberal model can't they have a model that is more representative of their society and values go ahead. i didn't say that i just say we need a model that doesn't involve killing a lot of people locking them up in jails because of their religious beliefs and them intentionally exploiting the weaknesses of the western governments in order to bring them down faster my concern which are his internal behavior in this conversation is mostly to say do you like it or if they treat their own people this way why would you expect them to treat you fairly and in economic or business contractual relationship and they develop their systemic cheaters and liars ok i do receive a very steep. critique of china there how do you react to that i know we lost you for a second so. we responded well you did hear ok well you know i think that one can prove anything and everything if you look at a certain point if you choose certain points looking at the us the picture can be

very grim why it can be very bright so there can be things said about china which are not bright and there are things that are very good but consider one thing china is only thirty years. into reform and opening up where was the us years after the constitution was written where was the us only more than a walk in the years ago when the blacks were still oh come on. if john was here he could tell you first have first hand all the riots where you can see the cracks how he was taking share in sit ins because the blacks couldn't sit go to a restaurant so you know the point is we are not i am not here to defend the government but i want to say what we observe and what we observe is that china is on the path and it has done a very poor child it has its flaws there are lots of things where it has to improve

including the environment corruption the freedom of speech concerning the problem and of course nobody would deny that but. you can only look at one side and you can make everything that's possible if you do that with us although fewer of those those are going to go there as well greg you want to reply now because i'd like to talk about what i also like to talk about chuck in china taking more responsibility on the global stage because it is the second largest economy in the world and will surpass the united states soon but it's still not flexing its diplomatic and political responsibilities i would say commensurate with the size do you think about that. well let me just first of all say the key to being able to improve yourself over time is freedom of speech criticism and so yes the u.s. is committed some terrible stands at home going around the world but the thing that's important is that we admit it we publicly flogged ourselves for it and we try to prove the chinese government's incapable of doing that now regarding their

position around the world they are very cautious and i think the key thing everybody needs to understand is that in china. politics lead economics as opposed to in europe the united states where the goal of politics is try to achieve a better economic state for the people in china the goal of economics is to keep the chinese communist party in power and that's why they allow and prove that because they care about those kids i mean you know one province it's only because they want the boys beijing to stay in power ok or do you think actually it's really very centrist it's not really very sunshine is self interest it's the self interest of the communist party this is what we just are. known of for once i'm sure all over the. system go ahead to two different question here first of all eat so happens that indeed it is the interest of the communist regime to provide economic prosperity i don't think there is any question about it. it happens to be good for the country i mean to

a great extent so the fact that these two objectives are close to spend you know is something that we should we should keep in mind of course the regime would like to stay in power of course it's a regime for weak economic prosperity is even more important for any other regime and therefore the less paying their kids creates a lot of good for the chinese people as well so that we need to keep in mind that going back to your earlier question yes china is a reluctant player on a global scene and other reasons because it is a relatively new player on global scene and there albeit the we play a remains to be seen what we've heard so far with china easy against the so-called us egg of money what we have all deserve so far is that china is unfortunately willing to engage with a lot of bad regime there each should not engage but all in all it's still

a fairly reluctant player and may i say that one reason why china is hesitant about providing more also. the european union is really potential backlash at home when he will are increasingly concerned there you know chinese resources will go down. sinking a hole and the money will never be seen again ok curious if there is another historical precedent out there was of an emerging power that the international community the international architecture didn't accept very well and that was germany at the end of the nineteenth and beginning twentieth century do you see that we've learned any lessons there because china is coming up very very fast and particularly as the economic global crisis is affecting the west the most i mean this is a time for china it's an opportunity for china but also there are they still can remain hesitant and really stepping up on the stage a lot more when the world really needs more leadership. well but does the world allow china to take part as as part of the global community i mean just listen to

what have it has been said during this show it has been offended. and and at the same time people say well why don't they tell of a bigger share well china will take its share and as it's growing and as it's also maturing in its system its share on the global communique role will grow but it's it's sort of flying against very heavy headwinds because everybody tells you how careful you are and on the other hand come challis applaud the response ability of us who wish we don't want to give you because you're not trust the wealthy solvent you know you cannot on one hand say you are not worth having responsive and you are saying you very much elaine with a brand of time we've run out of time here we'll find out later is china going to save the world many thanks to i guess today in miami irvine and in beijing i think your viewers are watching us here are to see you next time never asked are.

you. still. playing.