but for now china's enormous cash reserves may be just what the e.u. needs to clore itself out of economic turmoil. in cross-talk not discussed beijing's possible role as the euro's savior that's now right here on out say. twenty years ago the largest country in the. disintegrated. was how did. it began a journey. where did it take to. keep . a low in welcome across time peter without china's maneuvering our chinese fortunes

faring during the global financial crisis and the eurozone fiasco political uncertainty in the us and the arab spring is china and then again or is the world undergoes massive economic and geopolitical shifts and as the world changes will china take on a greater leadership role. came. across not china's growing influence i'm joined by greg audrey in irvine he's an entrepreneur and co-author of death by china in miami we have already shankar he used a ford motor company chair in global business management at ohio state university and in beijing we crossed to doris nesbitt she's the director of the nesbitt china institute all right folks you have difference a points of view on this and i want you to show my viewers ok but first marcia people say that china is set to save the world well i don't know about that but there is little doubt that over the last decade asia and china specifically has been steadily moving to the fore of the global economy and in the wake of the two

thousand and eight credit crunch which shattered the western financial crisis and triggered europe's own sovereign debt crisis experts say china's role in power in global affairs is more palpable than ever growing economic might is reflected in the. some talk over beijing's capacity to contribute to the hero's owns bailout fund the decision has not been finalized the european leaders and the i.m.f. have all welcomed the prospect of an investment which could range between fifty and one hundred billion dollars. i believe resolution for european debt is very important for stability of finance trade and economy. if china does inject cash into the euro zone it would mark an unprecedented shift in global power dynamics and make china a financial power on par with the u.s. but this wouldn't be the first time that the two countries for a while now the u.s. has laid claims that china is under valuing its currency. they continue to try to game the system to their advantage and our just sit damage so i think it's

appropriate and fitting and timely for us to be standing up and saying you know this is this is not acceptable ultimately however saving the eurozone and the u.s. is in china's own economic interests meanwhile economists are already warning of contagion threat if the crisis unravels and some have pointed to the country's slow growth as a sign of a spillover effect concerns that beijing has dismissed. you know who it is so i have to say that the national economy is generally on the right track and is benefiting from the macro control policies on the domestic front china's been further tightening the screws on internet freedom whether it's a sign of its internal vulnerability in the world by popular uprisings is unclear but a three day media conference last week and it was a whole slew of measures aimed at stopping what the chinese call the spread of harmful information but irrespective it seems like china is going to go its way

well let's talk about which way it's going to go aaron oden in miami if i go to you first year i mean what's most topical right now is whether the chinese will bail out the europeans bail out to your euro zone or if they do what would they get out of it well first of all i think that you know they're either china has been. you know unfolding fairly fairly quickly. in my book the chinese century you know about six or seven years ago i you know i predicted that china will become more the largest economy in twenty twenty five and we are mid-way through that through that process so this is not entirely unpredictable i mean you know we have both the united states and europe that are really admired in mountain of that there are only two countries out there that have the resources to help them out one is japan which is also being somewhat reluctant global player with a lot of the west to key issues to solve and then of course china you know you have

the moment of trillions of reserves were. sinking deeper into the debt hole this was i think you know quite predictable ok great if i can go to you in irvine and the chinese have been very hesitant because they see that the europeans just can't get their house in order they've created such a utter mess of their economies with this debt crisis here why would the chinese want it will we see the euro fail half year from now. you know first of all we've got to be clear when the chinese law to america or to europe it's not because they like it's merely to gain political advantage you know for which are economic exploitation like every other country and there's a moral here that even if it isn't different than other countries do i mean every country goes after self interest right and geopolitical interest as well. no where near is cutting and strategic as china does and we've got to be clear that finding our moral hazard in keeping us behaving badly either in europe or the united states

is not in china's long term best interest either it's always want to see the west continue to harm itself and doris you want to jump in there go right ahead. yes i was just going to say who sets the measure i mean who decides what's good and bad behavior you know i think we're at a point where the west has to think of all who decides what's good and bad are we really in the procession given all the problems we have to talk top down to china and say what we decide this court and what we think is good and what you would do is i think that the approach works much more would be what can we do to canada to solve the problems ok greg you want to reply to that do you think that the who decides to measure very good question yeah well you know the. moral equivalency arguments really interesting until you come to face somebody who

is truly evil we went through this whole same argument in the 1930's don't criticize the germans a lot of american tubby's whatever their set up business and said it's not our position you're here it's waiting you call you're creating that board you're equating china of today to nazi germany of the one nine hundred thirty s. . absolutely although i think you know china is somewhere worse as far as volume of scale and the level of censorship that's happening internally there but clearly the repression they put on their own right now it's upon us the rest of the world put together i say i object absolute objective moral values and it's got it in miami go ahead. no no i mean maybe object i mean. you know equate the two together you know not to germany is on a completely different level i mean you know a country that has been probably the worst atrocity that we have witnessed in the in human civilization so with all respect i mean i would not put china out there which i ask i mean it's the same here and i think you can result in any other

totalitarian regime in history doris you want to reply to that here are you writing a book about it and you have so no today. you know you open your book mistah creek who was quoting with a mock to her tiananmen square that was in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine i don't know when you have been to china for the last time and i don't know if with how many chinese weeks ago you have been talking you know we have we we you got a place expert in our studies in mainland china and not and not call well. you know we are in china right now and we have been talking last week in with people of chengdu where they really try and work on i have been here on integration to get people into an economic growth to rural population. they young people are following with each other via internet it's not that there is no communication

. internet certainly can be called a second party in china and it's certainly certain things are regulated gets without though but china is in the process of stabbing each own. off running the country ok great it's an interesting point i mean china china is a very good if i can interject here if i could interject here i mean in the west china is criticized because it is not in line with the washington consensus if i can use that term here i mean china is a rising power the west is steadily steadily declining ok i mean so it really is the west has to adjust itself to a rising china and india with its own relative decline would you agree with that the same argument was made about the declining british empire at the beginning of the twentieth century and how the new wave was the soviet union and the fascist states in europe. so countries that are willing to exploit their people to any level are always able to achieve quick turnaround we saw them in the lead we saw

that in germany we saw that at the beginning of the soviet union it's not sustainable but that's how they do i really i mean i've seen the people standing behind the rear of an ox with a wooden plow while the party members in shanghai and the business people in shanghai in moscow party like there's no tomorrow i've seen little children who are going to die because of lack of a five thousand dollars surgery because their health care system is an absolute joke did you want to jump in there go ahead in miami yeah yeah yeah yeah i mean i mean first first of all i mean again and i want to say that in in a very very clear clear fashion yeah these no question that you know the chinese is a bad regime as far as as morality is concerned to put it at the same as a regime that is all going to mess murders of people you know because of their you know religion or otherwise you know clean nation i when you're called i'll go on to your own having said that having said that you called even though. not only let me

finish the in jail or disappeared go ahead and you go ahead and finish up in miami go ahead yeah i don't think you can equate it with a close situation cap i'm very sorry i think you're entirely wrong but let me finish my point having said that they use no question that china is going to extract a heavy price for any but the. bail out my own view is that they're going to do it in a modest way there would be a lot of strings attached of course i do not buy the voices coming out of the e.u. and they stayed they would not be any strings attached there will be lots of strings attached but again it is in the the in china's interest that its main markets the u.s. remain able to buy you know a chinese product i don't think it is. question about that ok greg i want to ask you a question i mean what china has benefited so much from the current economic order

in the world right now i mean they're going to still continue to work as a partner is doris tried to point out you want to demonize them into an enemy but it's in their own interest to keep the order going the way it is. exactly the way that it's an interest the drug dealer has in his customer being able to continue to buy products that are doing them economic harm sustaining europe's bad behavior sustaining america's got behaviors that is not a on this one we're going to go to a short break and we've got a lot more to talk on the last day and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on china stay with our team. in canada and the u.s. that it is legal for you to use a bubble bath on your baby that contains

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human lives. she goes to the scene. a little unusual ways to protect a neutral. place where farming pioneers place local cuisine to the highest pitch. and where future developments depend on the way. russia's black sea coast should close up on our. welcome back to crossfire computer all about the true mind you were discussing china's increasing power. play.

ok doris i know you want to jump in right here out and you want to react to what doug gregg said right before the break so go right ahead. yeah i think we have one common ground and that is that china has pointed out millions hundreds of millions of people out of poverty to a relatively modest wealth i mean you know the definitive human rights includes in china that people have something to eat that people have a hope that people have a future and in cha ching china which is a very emotional attachment as we can see when we are here when we listen to what we have to say and you have to consider we have china came from where it started and if you look around china we're not only in cities like beijing or shanghai we are on the countryside and if you see the children of parents who can not read

having the ability and the the offer to visit the school or to have distant learning so that they are all to look for life has increased and improved dramatically you know you cannot always see look at china and say ok you cannot always draw the government clearly you cannot almost all the government but life does not only content in overthrowing governments life it is that you can fulfill your dreams that you can create virtual all that you can recreate a family all of this is very much i used to live in the needs of the chinese people and we have more and more of it greg. yeah yeah i get that but i don't want to hear the story that china has communist government has raised two hundred million people out of poverty they didn't raise anybody out of poverty hard working intelligent chinese people raise their selves out of poverty with the boot lifted just a little bit and cheering for the chinese government in this way is like sharing

the last horse in the kentucky derby japan korea taiwan singapore thailand all these other asian nations pull. themselves up way before china the only thing the chinese government did was hold its people back longer so that they could be the very last people to achieve that sort of lifestyle it's a tragedy it isn't tell you what it is going to find are you happy because i'm going to miami here i mean i think most reason people would say the chinese have done a pretty good job with the economic policy at least they're not in mired in debt like their competitors in the european union the united states i mean they've certainly done some some very positive things now you could say also with their foreign economic policy they're just only interested in self interest they don't have all the baggage that the west has about humanitarian interventions and all of these other things mean the chinese should go on their own way i mean there's something to be said about that right right i mean if you. want to. go to miami or if you have your chances go to miami greg mugabe's

a bear the day after i hope you will be brought to the hague that has nothing to do with it i mean we talk about china. and you know the whole issue is always more complex that the excuse me the picture is always more complex than the one sided argument that they hear here all in on both sides yes does this chain these leadership have called suitability of men i don't think there's any question about it when you're talking about you know literacy and the like is there a heavy very heavy price being paid by individuals because of the policies of you know more than these asian and economic growth no question about it i mean i can give you a very specific example of myself a trade off you know a child with cancer each child and things that are not being taken care of and so forth there is no question about that as well the reality is is always

much more complex than it seems. you want to see a democracy in china eventually. of course yes. can it happen at once will it happen that once i am not so sure i want to remind everyone did it with the exception of taiwan there was really no precedent off. a democratic chinese society u.k. it may take or started i was one of the i heard it eventually it was ok great i mean it was me why should we assume if i go back to greg here in irvine and why should we assume china were to go down the world the path of democratization as we all would understand it why would it have to be a western liberal model can't they have a model that is more representative of their society and values go ahead. i didn't say that i just say we need a model that doesn't involve killing a lot of people locking them up in jails because of their religious beliefs and

then intentionally exploiting the weaknesses of the western governments in order to bring them down faster my concern which i am as internal behavior in this conversation is mostly to say to you i have to if they treat their own people this way why would you expect them to treat you fairly and in economic or business contractual relationships and they don't they're systemic cheaters and liars ok doris i have a very strong. critique of china there how do you react to that i know we lost you for a second so. we respond to what you did here ok well you know i think that one can prove anything and everything if you look at a certain point if you choose certain points looking at the us the picture can be very grim why it can be very bright so there can be saying said about china which are not bright and there are things that are very good but consider one thing china is only thirty years. into reform and opening up where was the us certain years after the constitution was written where was the us only

more than i want to know as i go when the blacks were still oh come on you know jay if john was here he could tell you first have first hand how the riots were against the blacks how he was taking share in sit ins because the blacks couldn't go to a restaurant so you know the point is we are not i am not here to defend the government what i want to say what we observe and what we observe is that china is on the path and it has done a very good job it has its flaws there are lots of things where it has three improve including the environment corruption the freedom of speech concerning the government of course nobody would deny that but. you cannot only look at one side and neglect everything that's positive if you do that with us all with your although you're going to have picture there as well greg you want to reply now

because i'd like to talk about your point i'd also like to talk about china and china taking more responsibility on the global stage because it is the second largest economy in the world and will surpass the united states soon but it's still not flexing its diplomatic and political responsibilities i would say commensurate with the size do you think about that. well let me just first of all say the key to being able to improve yourself over time is freedom of speech criticism and so yes the u.s. is committed some terrible sense at home and around the world but the thing that's important is that we had made it we publicly flogged ourselves for it and we try to improve the chinese government's incapable of doing that now regarding their position around the world they are very cautious and i think the key thing everybody needs to understand is that in china. politics lead to economics as opposed to in europe in united states where the goal of politics is trying to achieve a better economic state for the people in china the goal of economics is to keep the chinese communist party in power and that's why they allow improvement not

because they care about those kids out in the anon province it's only because they want the boys in beijing to stay in power ok or do you think actually it's really very exciting it's not really very sunshine is self interest it's the self interest of the communist party this is where we just heard. none of them charlie over the. system go ahead to do it to a different question here first of all eat so happens that in the eighty's the interest off their communist regime to provide economic prosperity i don't think there is any question about it. it happens to be good for the country i mean to a great extent so the fact that these two objectives are consistent you know is something that we should we should keep in mind of course the regime would like to stay in power of course it's a regime for which you cannot mix prosperity is even more important than for any other regime nevertheless it is something that it's creates a lot of good for the chinese people as well so that we need to keep in mind that

going back to your earlier question yes china is a reluctant player on a global scene and other reasons because it is a relatively new player on a global scene and there are all that the two we play a remains to be seen what we have heard so far with china ease against the so-called us agony what we have observed so far is that china is unfortunately willing to engage with a lot of bad regime that each should not engage but only one only it's still a fairly reluctant player and may i say that one reason why china is hesitant about broad variety and more also. the european union is really put in charge back home when he will are increasingly concerned that you know chinese resources will go down. sinking

a hole and that money will never be seen again ok doris if i can go to you there is another historical precedent out there was of an emerging power that the international community the international architecture didn't accept very well and that was germany at the end of the nineteenth and beginning twentieth century do you see that we've learned any lessons there because china is coming up very very fast and particularly as the economic global crisis is affecting the west the most i mean this is a time for china it's an opportunity for china but also there are still can remain hesitant and really stepping up on the stage a lot more when the world really needs more leadership. while but does the world allow try not to take pocket as as part of the global community i mean just listen to what has it has been said during this show it has been offended. and and at the same time people say well why don't they tell of a bigger share well china will take its share and it has its growing and has its

also maturing in its system its share on the global communique wrote it will grow but it's sort of flying against very heavy headwinds because everybody tells you how terrible you up and on the other hand come she addict overall response ability with you wish we don't want to give you because you're not trust the wealthy solvent you know you cannot on one hand say you are not the world's having responsive like a and you are saying you very much do playing with lego in front of time we've run out of time here we'll find out later if china will save the world many thanks to my guest today in miami irvine and in beijing and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time members cost. cutting.

the italian senate approves its harshest new austerity law yet hoping to stem a growing consensus that the euro zone's third largest economy is falling to the ravages of the euro crisis. palestine is expected to push for a vote on a un statehood even if it loses it wants the bids opponents to justify their decision which it believes will be dictated by the u.s. . and western corporations the center point rich may be seeking to exploit the riches left following nato's bombing mission our top stories this hour. internationalising coming live from moscow this is r.t. with you twenty four hours a day the traumas of the euro crisis.