hello and welcome to cross talk on peter lavelle is it deja vu all over again the united nations nuclear watchdog the i.a.e.a. claims in a new report that iran is moving ever closer to possessing a nuclear weapon critics of the report claim nothing new or even damning has been revealed nonetheless the drumbeat of war against iran can be heard loud and clear. to cross-talk iran's nuclear program i'm joined by mark levine in washington he's a senior fellow with the truman national security project and talk radio host from rector at university in new jersey we have hooshang amirahmadi he is

a professor of international development and policy and in london we cross to patrick case he's a journalist and political commentator all right gentlemen this is cross talk to me as you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it but first we're calling this program iran deja vu appropriate i think rightfully so absolutely concerns over iran's nuclear program have been growing steadily for more than a decade with western countries like the united states and israel expressing suspicion that the program could be used to develop nuclear weapons with the recent report by the un atomic agency these concerns could be nearing a diplomatic turning point the report issued last week has unloaded what some believe to be a trove of intelligence showing that up until two thousand and three to iran was pursuing weapons related activities including research on nuclear warheads it is the first report of its kind that claims to offer explicit support for allegations that have so far remained uncorroborated. there is no reason to believe i. didn't say specially because it effectively.

confirms the. concerns that were already existing and were already recognized by. u.s. joined by france and britain are now considering a range of options in addition to the four rounds of sanctions already in place against iran options that israel has warned could include a military strike meanwhile iranian president mahmoud ahmadinejad's has been defined promising not to yield to the pressure and calling the findings fraudulent . the americans have fabricated a few papers and given them to the chief and he speaks about these papers why don't be even publish one report on the united states why don't we publish even one report on the friends of the united states. iran maintains that its program is meant to obtain nuclear energy for electricity only but the u.s. and its western allies are worried a nuclear armed iran could lead to

a regional arms race and poses a direct threat to israel. what most people do not realize that even china and india. are considered less enthusiastic for sanctions are extremely wary because in aggressive iran nuclear iran can threaten hundreds of millions of people in these countries. however because the report fails to state whether iran's efforts have resumed or tapered off since two thousand and three there's still no concrete reason to think it poses a genuine threat likewise the report does not indicate whether iran possesses weapons grade uranium or the capacity to produce it to that and talk of military strikes could be premature unless justifying this type of action was the reports original purpose and that is what everybody is talking about well let's talk about what everyone is talking about if i could go to a director's university this report we've had a little bit of time now almost

a week now to digest it is it all hype or is it alarming to take a side. well it's hard to really i mean that. compared to the previous there is. very little new industry a lot of the petition statements a lot of accusations that really doesn't hold after all. its really violate its on law transparency it does not side the sources that i was used to put this together second. is claiming that something was happening back in two thousand and two the before two thousand and thirty but it is not really saying that after. that it has any information it may may. is used over and over that it may may be developing explosive

device and anywhere he talks about the military is ation of this programs that are nuclear programs it's basically uses the water possibility possibility possibility ok this sounds like there's a lot of money because of his report like you believe all right mark do what you think. the i.a.e.a. report is thousand pages of intelligence from more than ten countries and it shows in detail not just iran is four fifths of the way to developing a highly enriched uranium program but that it has fourteen separate designs for installing the nuclear warhead on it's really in range missiles that can reach virtually everywhere in the middle east no one can dispute that the iranian nuclear program is out there for a nuclear bomb least of which the leaders of iran who keep saying they want to annihilate israel saudi arabia scared after all this is the country that just tried to kill the saudi ambassador in the united states and a terrorist attack this fall the internet is where your character ranch that's alleged ok. it seems to me and i'm. going to go to patrick first before we really

jump in here patrick in london it seems to me and i'm i could take a sign here but it seems to me that instead of really looking at iran everyone's looking at the i.a.e.a. . it's cast a huge shadow over itself because if we compare it to the last report over the last head of the the nuclear watchdog this one seems amazingly politicized and it is as mark pointed out ten countries provided information to this report but those countries are not mentioned whatsoever. i think really this report does go to show just how political the i.a.e.a. is and i really want to go back to fundamentals to sell itself and really ask what is this officious u.n. affiliated polity doing in iran in the first place i don't think it has any real business there i would like to say from the outset ready i think weapons inspections and we see this going from two thousand and three to now really playing a much broader broader role in the way in which western countries now intervene in

countries such as iran then i think really what you get is the wife's worse the bill of both worlds you get kind of western intervention but they do it in a very dishonest way so they try to do in this new true kind of way for using these kind of arms like the u.n. like the i.a.e.a. to go in and basically poke their noses around suffering countries and interfere and i think they should back out completely and actually i think in many ways this kind of intervention who put on hold a lot of the uprisings that we've seen in the middle east thing could potentially prevent the arab spring from developing any further ok mark you seem very disapproving go right ahead. definitely and look i e a has performed a tremendous function here and it's very careful you should be very careful to know this is the united nations body for example very clearly said that iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction and now that bases many americans like myself very much opposed the iraq war now they're telling us that iran is hell bent on developing a nuclear weapon and i think lying to believe them and if you're worried about the

arab spring if you're worried about the persian people the people who are doing the green revolution we know that if their government develops a nuclear weapon there is no way they will finally achieve democracy freedom for women and rights in iran lesson of gadhafi had nuclear weapons our people would have achieved let's separate ok we shall go ahead jump in mark let's. let's let's make the distinction between it on domestic issues and it's international matters very clear that's the it and people's business they want to overthrow the regime or otherwise that's a different business you are talking about iran's nuclear program first let me say that i am against the plan as asian nuclear programs. i mean i mean for military purposes in the middle east including israel and including iran and pakistan and india and elsewhere let's let's put that on the table but the point here is that this particular report that we are talking have created more commotion

and sensation that it really offers in real terms. as i said violates its rules of transparency it must come clean and bring and tell the world war who these sources are what the countries are provided the resources and beyond that i think. if i really is interested in coming to an end to a clean solution with iran it's really hard to put a. lover of land lubber a foreign minister of russia he has put an incredible plan workable plan on the table for the united states and five plus one we know for a fact that iran has accepted. the basic framework of the us. in fact within that plan it and accept that to go along and approve the additional

protocol of your ok ok. if we could very well i'm sorry one question if i'm going to mark here i mean what the new york times reported that the head of the i.a.e.a. actually went to the white house and presented his findings twelve days before it was released i mean why does the u.s. get to check it off first i mean it's the i.a.e.a. the united nations body why does it why is only one party given access to it or is it to check to make sure that the outcome is right i mean it does look a bit suspicious here. i don't see as much as much as fischer said i look at it if anyone's going to take military action it will probably be the united states and that's why the united states has the strongest encouragement to seek sanctions so that we don't have to rely on the last resort which is military action president obama ran for president said that iran will not become a nuclear power now either president i will keep his promise or he won't but the i.a.e.a. wants to make sure i think that the united states is is on board and i don't i don't think that process is a big deal i do want to answer the shans point though about domestic interests in

iran and the reason why they are important is that whatever you think of pakistan india israel these are democracies these are countries controlled by their people and iran you have a country a government that very much imposes on its people the persian people want freedom they don't want to stick to the ship they don't want to have women treated as second class citizens are pretty or largely or of the brain just like to ask my question before we go to the break ok all that's all nice and find what you said about democracy but the the nuclear program in iran is actually quite popular with the population well it depends if you talk to right wing if you like your ship it's very very difficult to trust polls the idea of the libyan people are quite happy to put off he did not have nuclear weapons and i think that if the iranian government has nuclear weapons it's a really sad day for the persian people above all ok i'm approaching if you want to jump in go ahead first bashing going to israel that's what i was very struck by the fact the moxy is very happy to speak on behalf of the arabian people i think they should speak on their behalf faces rise up and over free are their own thing over it and the government only and i think that i think it's

a state of war but here are three i'm going to jump in here we come right back to you after a short break and i just a short break we'll continue our discussion on iran's state party. would you still. feel.

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we're talking about iran and its nuclear program. ok patrick i want to go back to you because you were i had the last point to make that the first half of the program one of the things i think is very interesting here is that and i'll be a little bit provocative and i want to see how you guys react to it but it's really you looking at the report it's not really an analysis of nucular iran's nuclear program it's a case to go to war against it. well i do think that the i.a.e.a. and as i said kind of other kind of weapons inspectors but these are playing an increasingly important role in effectively paving the way towards potential war i think i was very evident with the iraq war with the formulation of the dossier i know that the i.a.e.a. were directly involved with that but the director former director general hans blix

certainly was he kind of did a lot of the inspections in iraq in the end it that's up but i guess more fundamentally i just wanted to make this point i do think you know the fact that the u.s. were given kind of privileged access for anyone else to this reports the fact that actually the i.a.e.a. is known in the independent but does also let me just answer to the u.n. and also it's a kind of a bomb or the fact that actually this is being considered in the first place as a deliberate cement thing that an international body can start to effectively poking its nose in other countries business. recommend the imposition of sanctions and effectively start to talk as mark started to be on behalf of the iranian people and say this isn't in their interests well actually they should be up to the let's talk about it if you say well i'm going to talk about who's in who's it in whose interest this is all about right before the report came out mark i want to talk to you in washington and we had the scandal coming out of the israeli cabinet about netanyahu trying to get members of his own coalition government on board for an

attack on iran and then the report comes out i mean maybe that's psychopathy or something like that but it certainly can't be a coincidence and israel has been itching for the u.s. to to bomb do to destroy the nuclear program that is there in iran for a long long time now i mean this is coming to an head. well first of all silage presume the i.a.e.a. is a tool of anyone as i noted in the iraq war that i made very clear against the united states government being controlled by president bush that iraq did not have nuclear or any weapons of mass destruction bush went to war anyway so the i.a.e.a. is not a tool of united states look a war is coming unless iran's nuclear weapons program stop it's that simple and maybe from israel or maybe from the united states where you can see how you are going to get more from your with your may just where you're assuming that you're assuming that is directly if you're going to do sanctions now ok we'll show you where the war is going to get going and records university go ahead. that went against mr bush in iraq was headed by mr day and that very mr about

id in an interview in times magazine flatly said that iran has never had as far as he is concerned a nuclear program designed to our military is ation so the same that went against mr bush that same now said that iran doesn't have that military edition program this is a complete. a it's you know i was there let's just listen patrick going to. try to be there's this gentleman what's going to patrick in london there what we're seeing is kind of scaremongering here basically war is imminent unless exposing nuclear weapons no it's not. for the u.s. and israel to decide whether or not they decide to clear the war on iran just the fact that it does build nuclear weapons doesn't necessarily mean they're going to use them and who is it really for the u.s. israel the west to decide who or who doesn't develop nuclear weapons anyways i mean

why shouldn't it be some other suffering countries to make those decisions i just want to make this point is i think what we're seeing here really is a modern form of colonialism from these countries they're using weapons inspections agencies the u.n. accessory to keep down these countries that they see to be disappearing unruly not trust worthy of possessing these kind of weapons i think that's really problematic in this kind of old form clearly one of the raise. go to another. arab emirates egypt turkey you're going to have all these countries develop corruptions you're going to have a nuclear let me let me jump in here you know the only please let me jump in here on america gentlemen let me jump in here marc if i can go to you and i to read very short of one sentence from the report to date iran has not provided the agency access to the heavy water stored at the uranium uranium conversion facility in order to take samples now that's an accusation here but if you check but heavy water production is not covered by iran's safeguards agreement i mean it's saying

that iran is doing things that it should be doing but it's not true i mean the fact of matter is there are certain things that don't fall under agreements that iran is signed but they're still accused of not being cooperate to me it's a blatant mistake write a report. on his side nuclear nonproliferation nonproliferation it's all so so i had to be so so so i say guards agreement an additional the most nice nuclear program in history. and well except that iran is not allowing i scrutinize their program look at iran at a peaceful program originally they said they were going to take their lower and wish and ship it to russia for processing that it could only be used for peaceful purposes whatever happened the idea while you run recognize that they've actually shipped it off they could develop their nuclear warheads the i.a.e.a. has made very clear in a very very detail and if you haven't read those appendixes in the fourteen pages they show the design of the iranian warhead and how the nuclear bomb could be put

in that warhead i mean i think you're living in a dream world and the thing is is that the other countries in the region it's not just israel and saudi arabia and the u.a.e. and egypt and turkey and soon you will have a massive nuclear arms race in the middle east with a lot of terrorism you will there's not one country could get away i just want to show you there's one country in the region that does have nuclear weapons and it's israel go ahead hooshang rector's university go ahead look at first the first first eat on has. responded in detail about those caught in court studies that dealt with the building a nuclear device or weapons of the military itself that has been already i see. that he has those important nations that he creation one is iranian nuclear weapon. so you do russian none of that's going to strike you as a sign of the old i said i mean what we're going to do i cannot get us to go well and why don't they just come up my friend my friend you don't you cannot tell

a country not to do any is studies for any of these that mention at the fact that they tell a country not to do a little open building it now i mean dennis of course is they'll be wise in iran i think the only energy julianne gentlemen not only there's a very good question hang on here hang on everybody patrick i am a professor let me go to patrick in london ok look i mean there are thousands of troops on both sides american troops on both sides of iran there is a very. a strong american fleet to the south ok and it's being threatened constantly with attack and maybe even invasion so i mean if i were part of the political elite and to run i would probably want to nuclear weapon because you know if you don't and you fall down the path of what iraq libya i mean no wonder north korea has gone down that path i mean i'm just saying those countries actually rationally in their own national interests. yeah i think they do i think in many ways it wouldn't necessarily be in iran's interest to develop

a new home because i mean that's as they point out it's own if they have one or two then obviously i could be completely obliterated i.e. israel and the us successor i think what we're seeing here to an extent is in their version of kind of moral authority from the west in many ways they now feel the need. for inspectors to go into these countries and actually build up a seven space allows them to intervene in one way or another what i call the. americas lack of confidence i think in many ways it's no longer feels it has a moral authority i mean but even so i think that moral authority is very problematic what we're doing here is when we say oh there might be an arms race over the u.a.e. may want to develop nuclear weapons other countries in that region might see if they say the only people who are civilized enough to possess nuclear weapons or this kind of power of the kind of superiors in the west i think it's a very part of the country imagining are you dreaming there is a world is actually using them and one is actually used in the united states is used as weapons exactly going to go to countries if you know mark go ahead and get

our crew hadn't washed i think the mistake that patrick who shot his make are making is there conflating the iranian government with the country of iran and they say iran iran iran is if the government represented the people of iran they do not the people are very much trying to overthrow their dictatorship the persian people happen to be some of the most pro western pro israel pro democracy pro women's rights people in the middle east but they are being put down by their own government and i fear that they are also glad for a military version use nuclear weapons to put their own people down democracies having nuclear weapons is one thing when a dictatorship has them it leads to a far more dangerous world who shall go ahead that's just all right you have not just first all right but these please understand that is there is no persian people people persian are still is a small one same people the ethnic community did so that's not persian that's number one second saying if those it on young people are also i'm saudi. those iranian people the same group of iranians how the regime these sanctions. that they

are suffering from american sanctions from israeli war they are suffering from did regime yes you are absolutely right the point here is this i believe if the united states wanted iran to build nuclear weapons it is trying to do its best to do it i mean what the u.s. is doing what israel is are doing are really pushing this damage the public toward weaponization i think there is a plot out there exactly of what is a mix of poverty and that there actually let me explain to let me explain that mr lover of the foreign minister of russia has put a plan on the table the plan says let's work a deal between the five plus one and iran on an incremental basis and there which will suspend its illicit activities and the u.s. will lift sanctions now part of that plan iran has accepted accepted to ratify the additional protocol it has accept. an immaterial who are ready for

a certain way they promised they would. well it would be part up that they have accepted to send that spell that he would only they have accepted and all the right gentlemen gentlemen wrote that scientifically gentlemen we're fashion running out of time here patrick i want to give you the last word in the program let me say suppose that how. is this just a drumbeat of war go ahead. and i'm quite got smacked by my side of the assumption that he can speak on behalf of the iranian people you know better than they can you know he seems to say that if guardian guardian of the iranian people can't be seen to actually take their own initiative and actually i was afraid the governments themselves i think any intervention that their way is likely to run is going to play is going to put any kind of potential uprising or arab spring in iran on the whole all right gentlemen gentlemen we're running out of time we'll see where this goes many thanks to my guest today in london washington and it rutgers university

in new jersey and thanks to our viewers for watching us here arche see you next time remember last time. you. still. want. twenty years ago largest country. two suitcases. but how did you come. to get it you know. where did it take.

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