hello and welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle is it deja vu all over again the united nations nuclear watchdog the i.a.e.a. claims in a new report that iran is moving ever closer to possessing a nuclear weapon critics of the report claim nothing new or even damning has been revealed nonetheless the drumbeat of war against iran can be heard loud and clear. to cross-talk iran's nuclear program i'm joined by mark levine in washington he's a senior fellow with the truman national security project and talk radio host from

rector at university in new jersey we have hooshang amirahmadi he is a professor of international development and policy and in london we cross to patrick case he's a journalist and political commentator all right gentlemen this is cross talk that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it but first we're calling this program iran deja vu appropriate i think rightfully so absolutely concerns over iran's nuclear program have been growing steadily for more than a decade with western countries like the united states and israel expressing suspicion that the program could be used to develop nuclear weapons when the recent report by the un atomic agency these concerns could be nearing a diplomatic turning point the report issued last week has unloaded what some believe to be a trove of intelligence showing that up until two thousand and three to iran was pursuing weapons related activities including research on nuclear warheads it is the first report of its kind that claims to offer explicit support for allegations that have so far remained uncorroborated. there is no reason

to believe. i. didn't say especially because it affected. confirms the. concerns that were already existing and were already recognized by. u.s. joined by france and britain are now considering a range of options in addition to the four rounds of sanctions already in place against iran options that israel has warned could include a military strike meanwhile iranian president mahmoud ahmadinejad's has been defined promising not to yield to the pressure and calling the findings fraudulent . the americans have fabricated a few papers and given them to the chief and he speaks here and there about these papers why don't the even publish one report on the united states why don't we publish even one report on the friends of the united states. iran maintains that its program is meant to obtain nuclear energy for electricity only but the u.s.

and its western allies are worried a nuclear armed iran could lead to a regional arms race and poses a direct threat to israel. what most people do not realize that even china and india that are considered less enthusiastic for sanctions are extremely wary because in aggressive iran nuclear iran can threaten hundreds of millions of people in these countries. however because the report fails to state whether iran's efforts have resumed or tapered off since two thousand and three there's still no concrete reason to think it poses a genuine threat likewise the report does not indicate whether iran possesses weapons grade uranium or the capacity to produce it to that and talk of military strikes could be premature unless justifying this type of action was the reports original purpose and that is what everybody is talking about well let's talk about what everyone is talking about and if i could go to

a director's university this report we've had a little bit of time now almost a week now to digest it is it all hype or is it alarming to take a side. well it's hard to really i mean that. compared to the previous there is. very little neal. a lot of the statements a lot of accusations that really doesn't hold after all. it's really violate it's on law of transparency it does not side the sources that i was used to put this together second. is claiming that something was happening back in two thousand and two the before two thousand and thirty but it is not really saying that after. that it has any information it may may. is used over and over that it may may be developing explosive

device and anywhere he talks about the military is asian of this programs that are nuclear programs it's basically uses the water possibility possibility possibility ok mr all right there's a lot of money certainly calls on this report i believe all right mark do what is required at. the i.a.e.a. report is somebody thousand pages of intelligence from more than ten countries and it shows in detail not just iran is fourths of the way to developing a highly enriched uranium program but that it has fourteen separate designs for installing the nuclear warhead on it's really in range missiles that can reach virtually everywhere in the middle east no one can dispute that the iranian nuclear program is out there for a nuclear bomb least of which the leaders of iran who keep saying they want to annihilate israel saudi arabia scared after all this is the country that just tried to kill the saudi ambassador in the united states and a terrorist attack. that's alleged ok. it seems to me

gentlemen i got to go to patrick first before we really jump in here patrick in london it seems to me and i'm not to take a sign here but it seems to me that instead of really looking at iran everyone's looking at the i.a.e.a. . it's cast a huge shadow over itself because if we compare it to the last report over the last head of the nuclear watchdog this one seems amazingly politicized and it is as mark pointed out ten countries provided information to this report but those countries are not mentioned whatsoever. i think really this report does go to show just how political the i.a.e.a. is and i really want to go back to fundamentals to sell itself and really ask what is this officious u.n. affiliated body doing in iran in the first place i don't think it has any real business there i would like to say from the outset really i think weapons inspections and we see this going from two thousand and three to now really playing

a much broader broader role in the way in which western countries now intervene in countries such as iran then i think really what you get is the worse worse the bill of both worlds you get kind of western intervention but they do it in a very dishonest way so they try to do in this new true kind of way for using these kind of arms like the u.n. like the i.a.e.a. to go in and basically poke their noses around suffering countries and interfere and i think they should back outs completely and actually i think in many ways this kind of intervention who put on hold a lot of the uprisings that we've seen in the middle east thing could potentially prevent the arab spring from developing any further ok mark you seem very disapproving go right ahead. i definitely am looking i.a.e.a. has performed a tremendous function here and it's very careful you should be very careful to know this is the united nations body for example very clearly said that iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction and all of that basis many americans like myself very much opposed the iraq war now they're telling us that iran is hell bent on

developing a nuclear weapon and i think lying to believe them and if you are worried about the arab spring if you're worried about the persian people the people who are doing the green revolution we know that if their government develops a nuclear weapon there is no way they will finally achieve democracy freedom for women and rights in iran a lesson of kind of they had nuclear weapons our people would have achieved let's separate ok we shall go ahead jump in mark let's. let's let's make the distinction between it on domestic issues and it's international matters very clear that's the iranian people's business they want to overthrow the regime or otherwise that's a different business you are talking about iran's nuclear program first let me say that i am against the plan as asian nuclear programs. you know i mean i mean for military purposes in the middle east including israel and including iran and pakistan and india and elsewhere let's let's let's put that on the table but the

point here is that this particular report that we are talking have created more commotion and sensation that it really offers in real terms i think. as i said violates its rules of transparency it must come clean and bring and tell the world war who these sources are what the countries are provided the resources and beyond that i think. if i really is interested in coming to an end to a clean solution with iran it's really hard to put a. lover of this plan. of foreign minister of russia he has put an incredible plan. on the table for the united states and five plus one we know for a fact that iran has accepted. the basic framework of the us as in

fact within that plan it and accept that to go along and approve the additional protocol of your ok ok ok if you were going to quit if we could very well i'm sorry one question if i'm going to mark here i mean what the new york times reported that the head of the i.a.e.a. actually went to the white house and presented his findings twelve days before it was released i mean why does the u.s. get to check it off first i mean it's the i.a.e.a. the united nations body why does it why is only one party given access to it or is it to check make sure the the outcome is right i mean it does look a bit suspicious here. i don't see is me as much suspicious that i look if anyone's going to take military action it will probably be the united states and that's why the united states has the strongest encouragement to seek sanctions so that we don't have to rely on the last resort which is military action president obama ran for president said that iran will not become a nuclear power and either president i will keep his promise or he won't but i want to make sure i think that the united states's is on board and i don't think that

process is a big deal i do want to answer the shans point though about domestic interest in iran and the reason why they're important is that whatever you think of pakistan india israel these are democracies these are countries controlled by their people and iran you have a country a government that very much imposes on its people the persian people want freedom they don't want to stick to their ship they don't want to have women treated as second class citizens are pretty or largely or those voters are you just don't like to ask my question before we go to the break ok all that's all nice and find what you said about democracy but the the nuclear program in iran is actually quite popular with the population well it depends on who you talk to right when i feel a kinship it's very very difficult to trust polls the high that the libyan people are quite happy to put off we did not have nuclear weapons and i think that if the iranian government has nuclear weapons it's a really sad day for the persian people above all ok project you want to jump in go ahead plus the bashing going pretty are very strong and i was very struck by the fact the moxy is very happy to speak on behalf of the iranian people i think they

should speak on their behalf they should rise up and over a free are the only thing i have it's the government and the belly and i think that i think it's a state of war here are the criteria i'm going to job in here we come right back to you after a short break and i'll just a short break we'll continue our discussion on iran's state party. would you still. want.

this.

and you can say. welcome back across time people about to mind you were talking about iran and its nuclear program. and you can say. ok patrick i want to go back to you because you were i had the last point to make it on the first half of the program one of the things i think is very interesting here is that and i'll be a little bit provocative and i want to see how you guys react to it but it's really

looking at the report it's not really an analysis of nucular iran's nuclear program it's a case to go to war against it. well i do think that the i.a.e.a. and as i said kind of other kind of weapons inspectors but these are playing an increasingly important role in effectively paving the way towards potential war i think i was very evident with the iraq war with the formulation of the dossier i know that the i.a.e.a. were directly involved with that but the director former director general hans blix certainly was he kind of did a lot of the inspections in iraq and headed that up but i guess it more fundamentally i just wanted to make this point i do think you know the fact that the u.s. were given kind of privileged access for anyone else to do this reports the fact that actually the i.a.e.a. is known in the independent but does alternately just answer to the u.n. and also it's a kind of a bomb or the fact that actually this is being considered in the first place as a diligent to make thing that an international body can start to effectively poking

its nose in other countries business. recommend the imposition of sanctions and effectively start to talk has not started to be on behalf of the iranian people and saying this isn't in their interests well actually they should be out to the rain like you are talking about if you say well i'm going to talk about who's in who's in whose interest it was all about right before the report came out mark i want to talk to you in washington and we had the scandal coming out of the israeli cabinet about netanyahu trying to get members of his own coalition government on board for an attack on iran and then the report comes out i mean maybe that's psychopathy or something like that but it certainly can't be a coincidence and israel has been itching for the u.s. to to bomb do to destroy the nuclear program that is there in iran for a long long time now i mean this is coming to an head. well first of all silage presume the i.a.e.a. is a tool of anyone as i noted in the iraq war that i made very clear against the united states government controlled by president bush that iraq did not have nuclear or any weapons of mass destruction bush went to war anyway so the i.a.e.a.

is not a tool of the united states look a war is coming and less iran's nuclear weapons program stopped it's that simple and maybe from israel maybe from the united states maybe from you know you really get more from your with your may just where you're assuming that you're assuming that is tied directly to her if you do sanctions now ok you sure you know it's going to get going records university go ahead. that went against mr bush in iraq was headed by mr day and that very mr about id in an interview in times magazine flatly said that iran has never had as far as he is concerned a nuclear program designed to laud military zation so the same that went against mr bush that same now said that iran doesn't have that military edition program this is a complete no that others say i.e. as you know i was there let's just listen patrick going to hear you are trying to

be in there says gentlemen let's go to patrick in london there what we're seeing is kind of scaremongering here basically war is imminent unless exposing nuclear weapons no it's not really nice for the u.s. and israel to decide whether or not they decide to clear the war on iran just the fact that it does build nuclear weapons doesn't necessarily mean they're going to use them and who is it really for the us israel the west to decide who or who doesn't develop nuclear weapons anyways i mean why shouldn't it be some other suffering countries to make those decisions i just want to make this point so i think what we're seeing here really is a modern form of colonialism from these countries they're using weapons inspections agencies the u.n. accessory to keep down these countries that they see to be disappearing unruly not trust worthy of possessing these kind of weapons i think that's really problematic in the style of old formula one of the raise. go to another. arab emirates egypt turkey you're going to have all these countries develop corruptions

you're going to have a nuclear bomb and let me let me jump in here you know the end of the only please let me jump in here on america gentlemen let me jump in here marc if i can go to you and i to read very short of one sentence from the report to date iran has not provided the agency access to the heavy water stored at the uranium uranium conversion facility in order to take samples now that's an accusation here but if you check but heavy water production is not covered by iran safeguards agreement i mean it's saying it's iran is doing things that it should be doing but it's not true i mean the fact the matter is there are certain things that don't fall under agreements that iran is signed but they're still accused of not being cooperate to i mean it's a blatant mistake the report iran has signed nuclear nonproliferation nonproliferation it's also somebody it's also something our safeguards agreement in additional the most nice nuclear program in history. well except that iran is not allowing

i scrutinize their program look if you don't have a peaceful program originally they said they were going to take the lower in which an iranian ship or to russia for processing that it could only be used for peaceful purposes whatever happened to that idea while iran recognizes they've actually shipped it off they could develop their nuclear warheads the i.a.e.a. has made very clear in a very very detail and if you haven't read those appendixes in the fourteen pages as they show the design of the iranian warhead and how the nuclear bomb could be put in that warhead i mean i think you're living in a dream world and the thing is is that the other countries in the region it's not just israel and saudi arabia and the u.a.e. and egypt and turkey and soon you will have a massive nuclear arms race in the middle east with a lot of terrorism you know well there's not one country could get i don't know in which way i do want to show because there's one country in the region that does have nuclear weapons and it's israel go ahead hooshang rector's university go ahead look at first the first first eat on has. responded in detail about those caught in court studies that dealt with the building

a nuclear device or weapons of military. that has been ordered the i see. that he has those important. that he creation why is iranian nuclear weapons anywhere. so you do russian not know that's what he was trying to assign the old i said i want to get it you cannot get us to go and why don't they just come up my friend my friend you don't you cannot tell a country not to do any is studies for any reason at the fact that they tell a country not to develop a nuclear weapon building it now i mean it's all done that is of course is they'll be wise in iran i think the only energy gentlemen model mean that's a very good question hang on here hang on everybody i am a poor factor let me go to patrick in london ok look i mean there are thousands of troops on both sides american troops on both sides of iran there is a very. a strong american fleet to the south ok and it's being threatened

constantly with attack and maybe even invasion so i mean if i were part of the political elite and to run i would probably want to nuclear weapon because you know if you don't and you fall down the path of what iraq libya i mean no wonder north korea has gone down that path i mean i'm just saying that countries actually rationally in their own national interests. yeah i think they do i think in many ways it wouldn't necessarily be in iran's interest to develop a new home because i mean that's as they point out it's own if they had one or two that obviously they could be completely obliterated i.e. israel and the us successor i think what we're seeing here to an extent is in their version of kind of moral authority from the west in many ways they now feel the need. for inspectors to go into these countries and actually build up a seven space allows them to intervene in one way or another what i call the. americas lack of confidence i think in many ways it's no longer feels it has the moral authority i mean but even so i think that moral authority is very problematic

what we're doing here is when we say oh there might be an arms race over the u.a.e. may want to develop nuclear weapons other countries in that region might say it's basically saying the only people who are civilized enough to possess nuclear weapons or this kind of power of the kind of superiors in the west i think it's a very powerful in the country imagining are you dreaming there is a world there's actually using them one is actually used in the united states is used as weapons exactly going to go to a country that if you mark go ahead and get our crew hadn't washed i think the mistake that cricket who shot is make our making is there conflating the iranian government with the country of iran and they say iran iran iran is if the government represented the people of iran they do not the people are very much trying to overthrow their dictatorship the persian people happen to be some of the most pro western and pro israel pro democracy pro women's rights people in the middle east but they are being put down by their own government and i fear that they are also deliberately revert use nuclear weapons to put their own people down democracies having nuclear weapons is one thing when

a dictatorship has them it leads to a far more dangerous world who shall go ahead that's just all right you have marked us first all right but these beliefs and is that there is there is no persian people people persian are still is a small band same people the community did so that's not persian that's number one second same goes it on young people are also i'm saudi. those iranian people the same group of iranians how the regime is anxious. that they are suffering from american sanctions from israeli war they are suffering from did regime yes you are absolutely right the point here is this i believe if the united states wanted iran to build nuclear weapons it is trying to do its best to do it i mean what the u.s. is doing what israel is are doing are really pushing this damage the public toward that when a zation i think there is a plot out there exactly of what is a mix of public and that there actually let me explain to let me explain that mr

lover of the foreign minister of russia has put a plan on the table the plan says let's work a deal between the five plus one and iran on an incremental basis and there which iran will suspend its illicit activities and the u.s. will lift sanctions now part of that plan iran has accepted accepted to ratify the additional protocol it has accept. an immaterial who are ready for a certain way they promised they would. it would be part up that they have accepted to send that spent they have used only rationale they have accepted and all the right gentlemen gentlemen wrote that scientifically gentlemen we're fashion running out of time here patrick i want to give you the last word in the program what i am saying is that our system. is this just a drumbeat to war go ahead i'm quite got smacked by my side assumption that he can

speak on behalf of the iranian people you know better than they can you know he seems to say that if guardian guardian of the iranian people can't be seen to take their own initiative and actually overthrow the governments themselves i think any intervention in the west like thing is going to play is going to put any kind of potential uprising or arab spring in iran on the whole right gentlemen gentlemen we're running out of time we'll see where this goes many thanks my guest today in london washington and it ruptures university in new jersey and thanks to our viewers for watching us you darkie see you next time and remember. you.

in defense. moscow blamed syria's increasing international isolation on western plans to bring about regime change. syria's hour of the day visit to the box president assad says the united states and its allies pull for

tougher action to bring about the downfall of the syrian leader. turning up the heat on china strange tough language over trade and currency issues as the apec summit comes to a close and who won. three. one. back in business a crew of three heads to the international space station on a russian soyuz it comes three months from the crash of a similar unmanned rocket that happened shortly after liftoff. just after four pm on monday here in moscow and this is on with me. the u.s. and its allies are more interested in regime change in syria than a peaceful solution to the rest that's according to the crew.