live from the russian capital on your headlines now a moscow claims syria's increasing international isolation on western plans to bring about regime change the arab league has turned its back on president assad with the u.s. and its allies calling for tougher action to bring him down. turning up the heat the u.s. and china exchanged tough language over trade and currency issues as the apec summit comes to a close in hawaii of a pacific free trade area dominated the gathering with russia set to be the next

host. the crew of three heads right into orbit on a russian soyuz rocket which is now the only way to get to the international space station it's the first manned mission for almost three months since a similar rocket crashed shortly after takeoff. my colleague bill dog will have more news for you in half an hour's time but for now. about the reasons behind the world's overwhelming interest in iran's atomic industry crosstalk. live live live. live take a. listen if you can.

follow in welcome to crossfire town people about is it deja vu all over again united nations nuclear watchdog the i.a.e.a. claims in a new report that iran is moving ever closer to possessing a nuclear weapon critics of the report claim nothing new or even damning has been revealed nonetheless the drumbeat of war against iran can be heard loud and clear. live and. live. to cross-talk iran's nuclear program i'm joined by mark levine in washington he's a senior fellow with the truman national security project and talk radio host from rutgers university in new jersey we have hooshang amirahmadi he's a professor of international development and policy and in london we crossed to patrick case he's a journalist and political commentator all right gentlemen this is cross talk and you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it but first we're calling this program iran deja vu appropriate i think rightfully so absolutely concerns over iran's nuclear program have been growing steadily for more than

a decade with western countries like the united states and israel expressing suspicion that the program could be used to develop nuclear weapons with the recent report by the un atomic agency these concerns could be nearing a diplomatic turning point for a corrugation last week has a motive but some believe to be a trove of intelligence showing that up until two thousand and three to iran was pursuing weapons related activities including research on nuclear warheads it is the first report of its kind that claims to offer explicit support for allegations that have so far remained uncorroborated. for us there is no reason to believe what i post so you say especially because it's effectively. conformist. concerns that were already existing and were already recognized by the un. the us joined by france and britain are now considering a range of options in addition to the four rounds of sanctions already in place

against iran options that israel has warned could include a military strike meanwhile iranian president mahmoud ahmadinejad's has been defined promising not to yield to the pressure and calling the findings fraudulent . the american so fabricated if you keepers and given them to the chief and he speaks here and there about these papers why don't be even publish one report on the united states why don't the publish even one report on the fronts of the united states and. iran maintains that its program is meant to obtain nuclear energy for electricity only but the u.s. and its western allies are worried a nuclear armed iran could lead to a regional arms race and poses a direct threat to israel. what most people do not realize that even china and india. are considered less enthusiastic for sanctions are extremely worried because in aggressive iran nuclear iran can threaten hundreds of millions

of people in these countries. however because the report fails to state whether iran's efforts have resumed or tapered off since two thousand and three there is still no concrete reason to think it poses a genuine threat likewise the report does not indicate whether iran possesses weapons grade enriched uranium or the capacity to produce it to that and talk of military strikes could be premature and must justify a set of action was the reports original purpose and that is what everybody is talking about let's talk about what everyone's talking about. university. report we've had a little bit of time now almost a week now to digest it is it all hype or is it alarming to take a side. really i mean i read the report several times compared to the previous report there is very little new industry a lot of repetition statements

a lot of accusations that really doesn't hold after all. it's really violate its own law transparency it does not side the sources that has used that to put this together second. is claiming that something was happening back in two thousand and four two thousand and three but it is not really saying that after that that it has any information it may may. is used over and over that it may may be developing an explosive device and anywhere he talks about the militarization of the programs that you don't nuclear programs it's basically uses the water possibility possibility possibility. mark. the report and i'm already thousand pages of intelligence from more than ten

countries and it shows indeed. not just that iran is four fifths of the way to developing a highly enriched uranium program but it has fourteen separate designs for installing the nuclear warhead on it's really in range missiles that can reach virtually everywhere in the middle east no one can dispute that the iranian nuclear program is out there for a nuclear bomb least of which the leaders of iran who keep saying they want to annihilate israel saudi arabia is scared after all this is the country that just tried to kill the saudi ambassador in the united states and a terrorist attack that this will be too nice a letter your that's a ranch that's alleged ok. it seems to me gentlemen i think i've got to go to patrick first before we really jump in here patrick in london it seems to me and i'm not going to take a side here but it seems to me that instead of really looking at a round everyone's looking at the i.a.e.a. and it's cast a huge shadow over itself because if we compare it to the last report over the last

head of the the nuclear watchdog this one seems amazingly politicized and is as mark pointed out ten countries provided information to this report for those countries are not mentioned whatsoever. no i think really this report does not show just how political the i.a.e.a. is and i really want to go back to fundamentals to sell it off and really ask what is this officious u.n. affiliated body during in iran in the first place i don't think it has any real business i would like to say from the outset really i think weapons inspections and we see this going from two thousand and three to now really playing a much broader broader role in the way in which western countries now intervene in in countries such as iran then i think really what you get is the worse worse of bill both worlds you get kind of western intervention but they do it in a very dishonest way so they try to do in this new true kind of way for using these kind of arms like the u.n. like the i.a.e.a. to go in and basically poke their noses around suffering countries and interfere

and i think they should back out completely and actually i think it is many ways this kind of intervention will put on hold a lot of the uprisings that we've seen in the middle east think the potentially prevent the arab spring from developing any further ok mark you see very disapproving go right ahead. i definitely am looking i.a.e.a. has performed a tremendous function here and it's very careful you should be very careful to know this is the united nations body for example very clearly said that iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction and other bases many americans like myself very much opposed the iraq war now they're telling us that iran is hell bent on developing a nuclear weapon and i think lying to believe them and if you're worried about the arab spring if you're worried about the persian people the people who are doing the green revolution we know that if their government evolves a nuclear weapon there is no way they will finally achieve democracy freedom for women and rights in iran lessening of the had nuclear weapons and people would have achieved let's. go ahead jump in mark let's yeah i think look let's

let's make the distinction between it on domestic issues and it's international matters very clear here at that's the eat and people's business they want to overthrow the regime or otherwise that's a different business you are talking about iran's nuclear program first let me say that i am against the plan as asian nuclear programs and you know i mean i mean for military purposes in the middle east including israel and including iran and pakistan and india and elsewhere let's let's let's put that on the table but the point here is that this particular report that we are talking have created more commotion and sensation that it really are first in real terms and it. said violates its rules of transparency it must can lead and be and tell the world war who these sources are what the countries are provided the resources and beyond

that i think. if i.e. airlie is interested in coming to an end to a clean solution with iran it's really hard to put a war mr lovecraft's land lubber our foreign minister of russia he has an incredible plan workable plan on the table the united states iran and five plus one we know for fact that iran has this basic plan goals of the us. in fact within that plan iran accepted to go along and are proved additional protocol after you ok ok if it was i had to quit if we could for you i'm sorry one question if i'm going to mark here i mean what the new york times reported that the head of the i actually went to the white house and presented his findings twelve days before it was released i mean why does the us get a check of our first i mean if the i.a.e.a. the united nations body why does it why is only one party given access to it or is

it a check to make sure the the outcome is right i mean it does look a bit suspicious here. i don't see as much as much as vicious and i look at it if anyone's going to take military action it will probably be the united states and that's why the united states has the strongest encouragement to seek sanctions so that we don't have to rely on the last resort which is military action president obama ran for president said that iran will not become a nuclear power either president i will keep his promise or he won't but i eat a want to make sure i think that the united states is is on board and i don't i don't think that process is a big deal i do want to answer the shans point about domestic interest in iran and the reason why they're important is that whatever you think of pakistan india israel these are democracies these are countries controlled by their people and iran you have a country a government that very much imposes on its people the persian people want freedom they don't want to stick to the ship they don't like to have women treated as second class citizens are people are largely worthless regardless. of what you like

to ask for a question before we go to the break ok all that's on my supply what you said about democracy but the the nuclear program in iran is actually quite popular with the population well depends i think it's hard to write with the allocation of it's very very difficult to trust polls the i think the libyan people are quite happy to put our feet and not have nuclear weapons and i think that if the iranian government has nuclear weapons it's a really sad day for the persian people above all ok if you want to jump in go ahead first the bashing going pretty are very strong that's what i was very struck by the fact the nazis very happy to speak on behalf of the arabian people i think they should speak on their behalf places rise up and overthrow the are the wrong thing over and the government and the deli and i think that i think it's a strange law you have played here at the very time that you're been here we come right back to you after a short break and i was on a short break we'll continue our discussion on the ground state party. to q. still. to come.

i. live.

just. a mission. critical three. three. three. three. three live mostly black live video for your media project c.b. radio dakar detox com. live to. listen to. live. across talk. about iran and its nuclear program. live pictures. live.

ok patrick i want to go back to you because you were i had the last point to make it on the first half of the program one of the things i think is very interesting here is that and i'll be a little bit provocative and i want to see how you guys react to it but it's really you looking at the report it's not really an analysis of nucular iran's nuclear program it's a case to go to war against it. well i do think that the i.a.e.a. and as i said kind of kind of weapons inspectors bodies are playing an increasingly important role in effect simply paving the way towards potential war i think i was very evident with the iraq war with the formulation of the quality dossier i know that the i.a.e.a. directly involved with that but the director former director general hans blix certainly was kind of did a lot of the inspections in iraq in there and i think that's up but i guess it more fundamentally i just wanted to make this point i do think you know the fact that the u.s. were given privileged access for anyone else to this reports the fact that actually the i.a.e.a. is known in the independent but does alternately just dance and see the the u.n.

and also it's a kind of a bomb or the fact that actually this is being considered in the first place as a deliberate to make thing this an international body can start to earth actively poking its nose in other countries business. recommend the imposition of sanctions and effectively start to talk has not started to do on behalf of the arabian people and say this isn't in their interests well actually they should be able to do more a lot you are talking about if you say well our lunch talk about who's in who's it in whose interest this is all about right before the report came out mark i want to talk to you in washington and we had the scandal coming out of the israeli cabinet on netanyahu trying to get members of his own coalition government on board for an attack on iran and then the report comes out i mean maybe that psychotic or something like that but it certainly can't be a coincidence and israel has been itching for the u.s. to to bomb do to destroy the nuclear program that is there in iran for a lot a long time now i mean this is coming to an head. well first of all silly to presume the i.a.e.a. is a troll anyone as i noted in iraq what i made very clear against the united states

government being controlled by president bush that iraq did not have nuclear or any weapons of mass destruction bush went to war anyway so the i.a.e.a. is not at all united states look a war is coming and less iran's nuclear weapons program stop it's that simple it may be from israel maybe from united states which are you really if you are from europe with your latest theory you're assuming that you're assuming that is politically jeweler if you do sanctions now ok you sure you know it's going to go and record university go ahead. that went against mr bush in iraq was headed by mr day and that very mr alibi day in an interview in times magazine flatly said that iran has never had past lives here is concerned and nuclear program designed to laud militarisation so the same that went against mr bush the same now that carter has said that iran doesn't have that

military zation program this is a complete no the other side is you know i was a let's listen patrick going i imagine this is a tragedy and there's determine what's going to factor in london what we're seeing is kind of scaremongering here basically war is imminent unless it's building nuclear weapons no it's not all somebody needs to be for the u.s. and israel to decide whether or not they'd sites claire declare war on iran just the fact that it does build nuclear weapons doesn't necessarily mean they're going to use them and who is it really for the us israel the west to decide who or who doesn't develop nuclear weapons anyways i mean questions to be closer in countries to make those decisions i just want to make this point so i think what we're seeing here really is a modern form of colonialism from these countries they're using weapons inspections agencies the u.n. access are to keep down these countries that they see to be disappeared unruly not trustworthy of possessing these kind of weapons and i think that's really

problematic if you just kind of old formula in your three. so. the radio you know arab emirates egypt turkey you're going to have all these countries develop corrections you're going to have a nuclear bomb and let me let me jump in here the only please let me jump in here on america gentlemen let me jump in here marc if i can go to you and i to. be very short of what one sentence from the report today to iran has not provided the agency access to the heavy water stored and fury uranium conversion facility in order to take samples now that's an accusation here but if you check but heavy water production is not covered by iran safeguards agreement i mean it's saying it's iran is doing things that it should be doing but it's not true i mean the fact the matter is there are certain things that don't fall under agreements that iran is signed but they're still accused of not being cooperate to me it's a blatant mistake rather report here on his side nuclear nonproliferation. and it's

also so i guess it's also something i see guards agreement of additional the most of the really nice nuclear program in history. except iran is not allowing i.e. to scrutinise their program look if you want a peaceful program originally they said they were going to take the lower and russian when you ship it to russia for processing that it could only be used for peaceful purposes whatever happened to that idea while you run recognize that they were actually shipped it off they could develop a nuclear warheads the i.a.e.a. has made very clear in a very very detailed if you haven't read those appendixes in the fourteen pages as they show the design of the iranian warhead and how the nuclear bomb could be put in that warhead i mean i think you're living in a dream world and the thing is is that the other countries in the region it's not just israel and saudi arabia and the u.a.e. and egypt and turkey and soon you will have a massive nuclear arms race in the middle east with a lot of terrorism you will there's not one country could get i do in the way i do want to show you this is one country in the region the turks have nuclear weapons

and it's israel go ahead we shall again record university go ahead look at first the first first eat on has. responded in detail those courting called studies that dealt with the building a nuclear device or weapons of you know a big military assault that has been ordered the way i see. that he has those important nations that he creation why is iranian nuclear weapon anywhere is what you do russian but that's when the strenuous exercise in all i said everyone would get if you cannot see that you go do it why don't they just give them up my friend my friend you don't you cannot tell a country not to do any of studies for any reason when they tell a country not to the world it is not open to building it i mean it's all done that is of course is the world he lives in you are not the only energy julian gentlemen not only there's a very good question hanging out here in on everybody patrick amateur factor let me

go to patrick in london ok look i mean there are thousands of troops are involved american troops on both sides of iran there is a very. a strong american fleet of itself ok and it's being threatened constantly with attack and maybe even invasion so i mean if i were part of the political elite in surround i would probably want to nuclear weapon because you know if you don't and you fall down the towers of what iraq libya i mean no wonder north korea is going down that path i mean i'm just saying that countries act rationally in their own national interests. yeah i think they do i think in many ways it wouldn't necessarily be in iran's interest to develop a new home because i mean that's as they point out at the time they had one or two then obviously they could be completely obliterated i.e. israel and the us successor i think what we're seeing here to an extent is an erosion of kind of moral authority from the west in many ways they now feel the need. for inspectors to go into these countries and that actually build up this

evidence base allows them to intervene in one way or another why can't you just speaks the americans lack of confidence i think in many ways it's no longer feels it has the moral authority i mean but even so i think that moral authority is very problematic what we're doing here is when we say oh there might be an arms race over the u.a.e. may want to sell it nuclear weapons other countries in that region might see this place is saying the only people who are civilized enough to possess nuclear weapons or this kind of power are disappearing is in the west i think it's a very popular injury imagining are you dreaming there is a world is actually using them one is actually used in the united states is used as weapons exactly going to be only comes in if you mark go ahead and get our crew here in washington i think the mistake that patrick who shot his make are making is they're conflating the iranian government with the country of iran and they say iran iran iran is if the government represented the people of iran they do not the people are very much trying to overthrow their dictatorship the persian people happen to be some of the most pro western pro israel pro democracy pro women's

rights people in the middle east but they are being put down by their own government and i fear that are also good for her to use nuclear weapons to put their own people down democracy is having nuclear weapons is one thing when a dictatorship has them it leads to a far more dangerous world who shall go ahead that's just all right you have not just first all right but these please understand that is there is no persian people people in persian are still as a small. community did so that's not persian that's number one second thing if goes on young people are also. those iranian people are the same sort of iranians while the regime is anxious. that they are suffering from american sanctions from israeli war threats they are suffering from did regime yes you are absolutely right the point here is this i believe if the united states wanted iran to build nuclear weapons it is trying to do its best to do it and what the u.s.

is doing what israel is are doing are really pushing this damage are partly a war between a zation i think there is a lot out there exactly opposite amica partly in that they're actually let me explain to let me explain that mr lover of the foreign minister after russia has put a plan on the table the plan say let's work a deal between the last one and iran on an incremental basis and there which iran will suspend its illicit activities and the u.s. will lift sanctions now part of the plan iran has accepted accepted to ratify the additional protocol it has accepted over who should. give its nuclear material already for a while where they promised they would. oh it would be part up that they have. to send that it's spent they have you don't they have accepted and all the right gentlemen gentlemen. gentlemen we're fastly running out of time here patrick i want

to give you the last word in the program i am saying is that all of this i'm going to see is this just a drumbeat of war go ahead i'm quite culp's not by my side assumption that he can speak on behalf of the iranian people but you know better than they can you know he seems to say that if the guardian guardian of the iranian people can't be seen to take their own initiative and actually overthrow the governments themselves i think any intervention in the west like going to iran is going to raise going to put any kind of potential uprising or arab spring in iran on the whole all right gentlemen gentlemen we're running out of time we'll see where this goes many thanks my guest today in london washington and it ruptures university in new jersey and thanks to our viewers for watching us you darkie see you next time remember. keep.

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