well into the. technology. development. hello and welcome to cross talk among people about is it deja vu all over again the united nations nuclear watchdog the i.a.e.a. claims in a new report that iran is moving ever closer to possessing a nuclear weapon critics of the report claim nothing new or even damning has been revealed nonetheless the drumbeat of war against iran can be heard loud and clear. to cross-talk iran's nuclear program i'm joined by mark levine in washington he's

a senior fellow with the truman national security project and talk radio host from rector at university in new jersey we have hooshang amirahmadi he is a professor of international development and policy and in london we cross to patrick case he's a journalist and political commentator all right gentlemen this is cross talk to me as you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it but first we're calling this program iran deja vu appropriate i think rightfully so absolutely concerns over iran's nuclear program have been growing steadily for more than a decade with western countries like the united states and israel expressing suspicion that the program could be used to develop nuclear weapons with the recent report by the un atomic agency these concerns could be nearing a diplomatic turning point the report issued last week has unloaded what some believe to be a trove of intelligence showing that up until two thousand and three to iran was pursuing weapons related activities including research on nuclear warheads it is the first report of its kind that claims to offer explicit support for allegations

that have so far remained uncorroborated. there is no reason to believe. i. say especially because it's affecting. confirmed. concerns that were already existing and were already recognized by. u.s. joined by france and britain are now considering a range of options in addition to the four rounds of sanctions already in place against iran options that israel has warned could include a military strike meanwhile iranian president mahmoud ahmadinejad's has been defined promising not to yield to the pressure and calling the findings fraudulent . the americans have fabricated a few papers and given them to the chief when he speaks here and there about these papers why don't even publish one report on the united states why don't the publish even one report on the friends of the united states. iran maintains that its

program is meant to obtain nuclear energy for electricity only but the u.s. and its western allies are worried a nuclear armed iran could lead to a regional arms race and poses a direct threat to israel. what most people do not realize that even china and india. are considered less enthusiastic for sanctions are extremely wary because in aggressive iran nuclear iran can threaten hundreds of millions of people in these countries. however because the report fails to state whether iran's efforts have resumed or tapered off since two thousand and three there's still no concrete reason to think it poses a genuine threat likewise the report does not indicate whether iran possesses weapons grade enrich the uranium or the capacity to produce it to that and talk of military strikes could be premature unless justifying this type of action was the reports original purpose and that is what everybody is talking about well let's

talk about what everyone is talking about if i could go to a director's university. a report we've had a little bit of time now almost a week now to digest it is it all hype or is it alarming to take a side. well it's hard to really i mean that. compared to the previous there is. very little neal. a lot of the statements a lot of accusations that really doesn't hold after all. it's really violate it's on law transparency it does not side the sources that i was used to put this together second. is claiming that something was happening back in two thousand and two the before two thousand and thirty but it is not really saying that after that that it has any information it may may.

is used over and over that it may may be developing explosive device and anywhere he talks about the military is asian of this programs that are nuclear programs it's basically uses the water possibility possibility possibility ok mr all right there's a lot of calls in his report are you believe all right mark do what do you think. the i.a.e.a. report is thousand pages of intelligence from more than ten countries and it shows in detail not just iran is fourths of the way to developing a highly enriched uranium program but that it has fourteen separate designs for installing the nuclear warhead on it's really in range missiles that can reach virtually everywhere in the middle east no one can dispute that the iranian nuclear program is out there for a nuclear bomb least of which the leaders of iran who keep saying they want to annihilate israel saudi arabia are scared after all this is the country that just

tried to kill the saudi ambassador in the united states and a terrorist attack that this will the internet is where your actual ranch that's alleged ok. it seems to me and. i got to go to patrick first before we really jump in here patrick in london it seems to me and i'm i could take a sign here but it seems to me that instead of really looking at around everyone's looking at the i.a.e.a. . it's cast a huge shadow over itself because if we compare it to the last report over the last head of the nuclear watchdog this really seems amazingly politicized and it is as mark pointed out ten countries provided information to this report but those countries are not mentioned whatsoever. i think really this report does go to show just how political the i.a.e.a. is and i really want to go back to fundamentals to sell itself and really ask what is this officious u.n. affiliated balti doing in iran in the first place i don't think it has any real business there i would like to say from the outset ready to i think weapons

inspections and we see this going from two thousand and three to now really playing a much broader broader role in the way in which western countries now also intervene in countries such as iran then i think really what you get is the worse what is the bill of both worlds you get kind of western intervention but they do it in a very dishonest way so they try to do in this new true kind of way for using these kind of alms like the u.n. like the i.a.e.a. to go in and basically poke their noses around suffering countries and interfere and i think they should back out completely and actually i think it is many ways this kind of intervention who put on hold a lot of the uprisings that we've seen in the middle east thing could potentially prevent the arab spring from developing any further ok mark you seem very disapproving go right ahead. i definitely am looking i.e. a has performed a tremendous function here and it's very careful you should be very careful to know this is the united nations body for example very clearly said that iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction and all of that basis many americans like myself

very much opposed the iraq war now they're telling us that iran is hell bent on developing a nuclear weapon and i think lying to believe them and if you're worried about the arab spring if you're worried about the persian people the people who are doing the green revolution we know that if their government develops a nuclear weapon there is no way they will finally achieve democracy freedom for women and rights in iran a lesson of kind of they had nuclear weapons and people would have achieved that suffrage ok go ahead jump in mark let's yeah i think let's let's make the distinction between it on domestic issues and it's international matters very clear that's the iranian people's business they want to overthrow the regime or otherwise that's a different business you are talking about iran's nuclear program first let me say that i am against the plan as asian nuclear programs. i mean i mean for military purposes in the middle east including israel and including iran and

pakistan and india and elsewhere let's let's let's put that on the table but the point here is that this particular report that we are talking have created more commotion and sensation that it really offers in real terms i think. as i said violates its rules of transparency it must come clean and bring and tell the world war who these sources are what the countries are provided the resources and beyond that i think. if i really is interested in coming to an end to a clean solution with iran it's really hard to put a. lover of his plan. foreign minister of russia he has put an incredible plan. on the table for the united states and five plus one we know for a fact that iran has accepted. the basic framework of the us. in

fact within that plan it and accept that to go along and approve the additional protocol of your ok ok if you were going to quit if we could for you i'm sorry one question if i'm going to mark here i mean what the new york times reported that the head of the i.a.e.a. actually went to the white house and presented his findings twelve days before it was released i mean why does the u.s. get to check it off first i mean it's the i.a.e.a. the united nations body why does it why is only one party given access to it or is it to check make sure the the outcome is right i mean it does look a bit suspicious here. i don't see is me as much suspicious that i look if anyone's going to take military action it will probably be the united states and that's why the united states has the strongest encouragement to seek sanctions so that we don't have to rely on the last resort which is military action president obama ran for president said that iran will not become a nuclear power and either president i will keep his promise or he won't but the i.a.e.a.

wants to make sure i think that the united states is is on board and i don't i don't think that process is a big deal i do want to answer the shans point though about domestic interest in iran and the reason why they're important is that whatever you think of pakistan india israel these are democracies these are countries controlled by their people and iran you have a country a government that very much imposes on its people the persian people want freedom they don't want to stick to their ship they don't want to have women treated as second class there's a market for largely or for the brain just like to ask my question before we go to the break ok all that's all nice and find what you said about democracy but the the nuclear program in iran is actually quite popular with the population. well it depends on who you talk to right if you know they cherish it but it's very very difficult to trust polls the high that the libyan people are quite happy to put off we did not have nuclear weapons and i think that if the iranian government has nuclear weapons it's a really sad day for the persian people above all ok i'm approaching you want to jump in go ahead first the bashing going pretty are very strong and i was very

struck by the fact the moxy is very happy to speak on behalf of the arabian people i think they should speak on their faces rise up and over a free are the only thing i have it's the government the belly and i and i think that i think it's a state of war at the very time with the job in here we come right back to you after a short break and i want your break we'll continue our discussion on iran's state party. would you still. want. i.

just. listen and.

welcome back across time people about we're talking about iran and its nuclear program. live. and. ok patrick i want to go back to you because you were i had the last point to make the first half of the program one of the things i think is very interesting here is that and i'll be a little bit provocative and i want to see how you guys react to it but it really is that looking at the report it's not really an analysis of nucular iran's nuclear program it's a case to go to war against it. well i do think that the i.a.e.a. and as i said kind of other kind of weapons inspectors but these are playing an increasingly important role in effectively paving the way towards potential war i think i was very evident with the iraq war with the formulation of the dossier i know that the i.a.e.a. were directly involved with that but the director former director general hans blix

certainly was he kind of did a lot of the inspections in iraq in the end it that's up but i guess more fundamentally i just wanted to make this point i do you say you know the fact that the u.s. were given going to access for anyone else to this reports the facts that actually the i.a.e.a. is known in the independent but does alternately just answer to the u.n. and also it's a kind of a bomb or the fact that actually this is being considered in the first place as a deliberate to make thing that an international body can start to effectively poking its nose in other countries business. recommend the imposition of sanctions and effectively start to talk as mark started to be on behalf of the iranian people and say this isn't in their interests well actually they should be up to the let's talk about if you say well i'm going to talk about who's in who's in whose interest it was all about right before the report came out mark i want to talk to you in washington and we had the scandal coming out of the israeli cabinet about netanyahu trying to get members of his own coalition government on board for an attack on

iran and then the report comes out i mean maybe that psychopathy or something like that but it certainly can't be a coincidence and israel has been itching for the u.s. to do bomb due to destroy the nuclear program that is there in iran for a long long time now i mean this is coming to an head. well first of all silage presume the i.a.e.a. is a tool of anyone as i noted in the iraq war that i made very clear against the united states government being controlled by president bush that iraq did not have nuclear or any weapons of mass destruction bush went to war anyway so the i.a.e.a. is not a tool of united states look a war is coming and less iran's nuclear weapons program stopped it's that simple and maybe from israel or maybe from the united states where you can see how you really get more from your with your mate just because you're assuming you're assuming that is tied directly to her because you do sanctions now ok. it's going to get going records university go ahead. that went against mr bush in iraq was headed by mr day and that very mr al about id in an interview

in times magazine flatly said that iran has never had as far as he is concerned and nuclear program designed to laud military is ation so the same that went against mr bush that same now said that iran doesn't have that the military is a sham program this is a complete no the other say i.a.e.a. as you know i was there let's just listen patrick going to. traditionally been there since gentlemen what's going to patrick in london what we're seeing is kind of scaremongering here basically war is imminent and less. clear weapons no it's not some of these three for the u.s. and israel to decide whether or not they decide to play the clare war in iran just the fact that it does build nuclear weapons doesn't necessarily mean they're going to use them and who is it really for the u.s. israel the west to decide who or who doesn't develop nuclear weapons anyways i mean

why shouldn't it be some other suffering countries to make those decisions i just want to make this point so i think what we're seeing here really is a modern form of colonialism from these countries they're using weapons inspections agencies the u.n. exception to keep down these countries that they see to be disappearing unruly not trust worthy of possessing these kind of weapons i think that's really problematic kind of old form who wants to raise. go to another. arab emirates egypt turkey you're going to have all these countries develop corruptions you're going to have a nuclear bomb and let me let me jump in here you know the only please let me jump in here on america gentlemen let me jump in here marc if i can go to you and i to read very short of one sentence from the report to date iran has not provided the agency access to be heavy water stored at the uranium uranium conversion facility in order to take samples now that's an accusation here but if you check but heavy water production is not covered by iran safeguards agreement i mean it's saying

that iran is doing things that it's should be doing but it's not true i mean the fact of matter is there are certain things that don't fall under agreements that iran is signed but they're still accused of not being cooperate to i mean it's a blatant mistake right to report iran has signed nuclear nonproliferation nonproliferation it's also so like it's also something are safeguards agreement in additional the most nice nuclear program in history. well except that iran is not allowing i scrutinize their program look if you don't have a peaceful program originally they said they were going to take their lower and wish and rainy and ship it to russia for processing that it could only be used for peaceful purposes whatever happened to that idea while iran recognize that they've actually shipped it off they could develop their nuclear warheads the i.a.e.a. has made very clear in a very very detailed and if you haven't read those appendixes in the fourteen pages as they show the design of the iranian warhead and how the nuclear bomb could be

put in that warhead i mean i think you're living in a dream world and the thing is is that the other countries in the region it's not just israel and saudi arabia and the u.a.e. and egypt and turkey and soon you will have a massive nuclear arms race in the middle east with a lot of terrorism you know well there's not one country could get i don't know if i do want to show you there's one country in the region that does have nuclear weapons and it's israel go ahead hooshang rector's university go ahead look at first first first it on has. responded in detail those courting called studies that dealt with the building at nuclear devise or weapons of the military itself that has been ordered the i see. that he has those important . that he creation of what is iranian nuclear weapon anyway. so you do russian no that's what he was trying to it's a sorry old i said i mean what we're going to do i cannot get us to go and why don't they just give them up to my friends my friend you don't you cannot tell

a country not to do any of studies for any reason at the fact that they tell a country not to develop nuclear weapons it doesn't mean they are building it now i mean it's all done dennis of course is they'll be wise in iran i think the only energy julian gentlemen model mean there's a very good question hang on here hang on everybody patrick i am opposed faster let me go to patrick in london ok look i mean there are thousands of troops on both sides american troops on both sides of iran there is a very. a strong american fleet to the south ok and it's being threatened constantly with attack and maybe even invasion so i mean if i were part of the political elite and to run i would probably want to nuclear weapon because you know if you don't and you fall down the path of what iraq libya i mean no wonder north korea has gone down that path i mean i'm just saying that countries actually rationally in their own national interests. yeah i think they do i think in many ways it wouldn't necessarily be in iran's interest to develop

a new bone because i mean that's as they point out its own if they had one or two that obviously they could be completely obliterated i.e. israel and the us successor i think what we're seeing here to an extent is in their version of kind of moral authority from the west in many ways they now feel the need. for inspectors to go into these countries and actually build up a seven space allows them to intervene in one way or another what i call the. americas lack of confidence i think in many ways it's no longer feels it has the moral authority i mean but even so i think that moral authority is very problematic what we're doing here is when we say oh there might be an arms race over the u.a.e. may want to develop nuclear weapons other countries in that region might see if they say the only people who are civilized enough to possess nuclear weapons or this kind of power are of the kind of superiors in the west i think it's a very powerful in the country imagining are you dreaming that is the world is actually using them and one is actually used in the united states is used as weapons exactly going to go to countries if you know mark go ahead and get our crew

hadn't washed i think the mistake that patrick who shot his make are making is there conflating the iranian government with the country of iran and they say iran iran iran is if the government represented the people of iran they do not the people are very much trying to overthrow their dictatorship the persian people happen to be some of the most pro western pro israel pro democracy pro women's rights people in the middle east but they are being put down by their own government and i fear that they are also glad for her to use nuclear weapons to put their own people down democracies having nuclear weapons is one thing when a dictatorship has them it leads to a far more dangerous world who shall go ahead that's just all right you have mark just first all right but he's believes and is that there is there is no persian people people persian are still is a small one same people the ethnic community did so that's iranian not persian that's number one second saying you have those it on young people are also i'm saudi. those iranian people the same group of iranians how the regime is anxious.

that they are suffering from american sanctions from israeli war they are suffering from did regime yes you are absolutely right the point here is this i believe if the united states wanted iran to build nuclear weapons it is trying to do its best to do it i mean what the u.s. is doing what israel is are doing are really pushing this damage of public toward that when a zation i think there is a plot out there exactly of what is a mix of poverty and that there actually let me explain to let me explain that mr lover of the foreign minister of russia has put a plan on the table the plan says let's work a deal between the five plus one and iran on an incremental basis and there which will suspend its illicit activities and the u.s. will lift sanctions now part of that plan iran has accepted accepted to ratify the additional protocol it has accept. an immaterial who are ready for

a certain way they promised they would. well it would be part of that they have accepted to send that spent they have you don't hear i shall they have accepted any of the right gentlemen gentlemen wrote that scientifically gentlemen were fashioned running out of time here patrick i want to give you the last word in the program let me say suppose the house to somebody you see is this just a drumbeat of war go ahead i'm quite gobsmacked by my side assumption that he can speak on behalf of the iranian people you know better than they can you know he seems to say that if guardian guardian of the iranian people can't be seen to take their own initiative and actually overthrow the governments themselves i think any intervention that the way is likely to run is going to play is going to put any kind of potential uprising or arab spring in iran on the whole right gentlemen gentlemen we're running out of time we'll see where this goes many thanks to my guest today in london washington and it ruptures university in new jersey and

thanks to our viewers for watching us here arche see you next time and remember last time. you.

all. in defense of the. increasing international isolation of the west for regime change . president assad has the united states and its allies call to action to bring about the downfall of the syrian

leader. turning up the heat tough talks between the u.s. and china over trade and currency issues as the apec summit comes to a close. u.s. putting pressure on the corporate occupy protesters tearing down the resting activist. movement escalates across the country top stories. international news and comment live from moscow this is twenty four hours a day the u.s. and its allies are more interested in regime change in syria than a peaceful solution to the unrest that's according to the kremlin russia's foreign minister says western countries are trying to stir up syria's opposition to topple president bashar assad.