or see some other part of it and realize everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm charming welcome to the big picture. wealthy british. market why not. come to find out what's really happening to the global economy with mike's cars or for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune into cons a report on our t.v. . download the official and see how to make

a show on the phone called touch from the i choose option. life on the go. video on demand keys minefield comes an r.s.s. feeds now in the palm of your. question. hello and welcome to cross talk i feel about what's next for the occupy movement across the u.s. after police use strong arm tactics to disperse protesters should the movement seek a way to join the political process and to insert itself into legislative procedures or when eventually fragmenting into protest or protests a. take.

crosstalk the ongoing protests in the us i'm joined by my guest in new york james livingston he's a professor of history at rutgers and author of against thrift why consumer culture is good for the economy the environment and your soul published yesterday patrick brennan he's a writer and the william f. buckley fellow at the national review institute and francis fox pavan she is a distinguished professor of sociology and political science at city university of new york graduate center all right folks crosstalk reason i think that means you can jump in anytime you want you know very much encourage it but first is this movement actually going anywhere i think that's the main question right now is it over the two months that the occupy wall street movement has existed it's turned into a juggernaut of civil disobedience that has allowed for cities across the world but just as the movement is growing in scale and scope it is also grappling with more and more criticism crackdowns and facing growing questions about its tactics and strategy the movement's advocates still insist that occupy is an important voice

for public frustration that has succeeded in raising awareness of staggering income and wealth inequality there is a movement brewing in america not just the occupy wall street but the two thousand encampments occupy around america and also the sense that suddenly the ninety nine percent of americans who have not been heard from or been heard from and heard in the media which is not paid attention until now. the extent to which occupy has gathered steam in the resonated across the u.s. and the globe does say something about a collective sense of discontent and disillusionment with the economy but whether that sense can be applied to all the ninety nine percent of americans that the protests claim to represent is another story and thus is shown at every simple opinion survey conducted by public policy polling which found that not only does occupy appeal to nearly a handful of the ninety nine percent but it's a poor ratings over the last month is growing awareness of occupy prob. really

stems from the real world perceived notion that the movement's outlook is redundantly utopia and while its members are yet to put forth clear and specific policy goals and here in ice the protestors chief task proving they can convert their momentum into targeted action but even if occupy were to recede into the annals of social resistance it would most likely leave behind the idea that the movement came to represent mainly that there is a y disconnect between the government and on the ground reality and that reality shows the western economic system experiencing a deep systemic crisis so perhaps the mean purpose has already been served mostly about that first francis i'd like to go to you in new york or you wrote i think we desperately need a popular uprising in the united states is this the uprising you were hoping for and where is this right if it is where is this oh where oh where is this uprising going. this this uprising is raising the issue of extreme inequality in the united states that inequality of both wealth and income has increased steadily over the

past thirty five years. and somehow i did not find real expression and in the american political process i didn't find strong expression in the american political process because the very fact that wealth has become more concentrated has meant that the wealthy can pour more money into our electoral system so even democrats did not forcefully express the fact creasing inequality and people were left without even a clear articulation of what the problem was what the problems are and occupy wall street began at the point dan rather small in new york city it was the first clear and all the expression of a big problem who center was financial. ok patrick what do you think about that i

mean one of the things i find very interesting is that we just report was i mean is it really about the ninety nine percent or is it about a certain type of person that is being disenfranchised in america's democratic system because i mean if it's ninety nine percent fine and she does all register to vote in kick the bombs out but that's not what's happening now i think it's quite clear that it really doesn't represent ninety nine percent of america i mean if you go down to zuccotti park it doesn't look like ninety nine percent of america to me and i think the polls bear that out just yesterday there was a usa today gallup poll that came out with support of just at least thirteen percent support and so i thirty percent against the fact is that it was a great piece in new york yesterday that brought out what are the origins of the movement and it's essentially you know not a rebel movement believes in this but it's essentially an archaic anti-capitalist movement and while many americans are unhappy with our economic situation i don't think that they blame that on the nature of capitalism i think that's

a pretty pretty rare sentiment in america today and so in that sense it was argument against capitalism so i'm not sure they're really i mean that's fair enough james if i can go to you i mean a lot of people would say capitalism isn't working for them. that's right i think that's exactly right i think there are two questions here one is the nature of politics. register in vote and vote for what happens in congress if you vote for whomever nothing to say that this movement has to get political is to me just laughable because the political process is so broken it is so not just a bipartisan partisan but put ridiculously dysfunctional. so that's one thing the other thing is the nature of capitalism americans have always been ambivalent about capitalism the nature of it sure yeah i think that ninety nine percent are deeply deeply worried about what's happening under this system because capitalism like it or not i think the one percent of our people whether you're seeing from zuccotti

park or you can be and build our capitalism if you're so for a consumer society and how your consumer society. james would feel that well i'm sure i'm going to have a lot about capitalism because i think consumerism is a way of transcending or superseding travels i think it's a way of reducing corporate profits for example if we redistribute income away from you know i don't think reversed moves raising the issue of things happen all at some head francis jump in the movement. the movement to not raise the issue of capitalism and raise the issue of concentrated wealth and income and they had to exert it doesn't rally against capitalism and. it speaks about corporate financial wealth that has greatly concentrated and not only the top one percent the top tenth of one percent in our society and in his search is

actually pretty close to correctly that most of the rest of the society is templated as a result of the crest of wealth upwards in the united states it doesn't say capitalism must live at least some chances i think this is seriously. here i mean it's very interesting here my three guests here we can't even decide really what this movement is all about and james i'd like to quote something that you wrote in something called occupy wall street isn't the same old political crap it's much much more i'm going to read a sentence from here the response to occupy wall street tells us more about the limits of our political discourse then about the content of the protest or movement can you elaborate on that because it's very very interesting and you mentioned something else in the article about eastern europe and i studied to solidarity movement very very carefully when i was a graduate student you drawing parallels here so it's very interesting go ahead yeah when i see it it's it has something to do with the limits of our discourse i mean what is the what is the limit or what is the nature of politics it seems to me vaclav havel got it right he said dissidents opposition is not all there is to

politics in fact what he said was living within the truth is a creep political space and that's what i think is happening in zuccotti park so so yes we might be able sunday to translate this into political programs but for the time being that is not the point the point is simply to allow these words to make more sense to more people than ninety nine percent versus the one percent if those words if that were an accurate if these if these these verbs and nouns get into the language we have a way of thinking about the future that right now we don't ok patrick if i can go to you it seems to me this movement you know is really doesn't like it doesn't like an oligarchy it doesn't like concentration of wealth i go on and on what does it want what is it like because it's all telling us what they don't like and that's why it's such such a dual use group. i think that i think the dreams of getting out what probably

unifies the movement more than anything is the idea of sort of this kind of political utopia base or consensus consensus based a marker city and so that's that's the whole movement revolves around these general assemblies and they're sort of wonderful ideas and basically you know we're commentators with them so that is beautiful you know fortunately it isn't like tahrir square because first where was there was a functional political protest political aims but they said you know the six already this is beautiful and unfortunately it doesn't represent anything that's particularly politically practical and it's not it's not an example of american democracy that isn't what democracy looks like you know having. acquiring consensus and you know paint it all viewpoints isn't really what democracy looks like it isn't what's made functional democratic societies work. but that is i think what it what ties all together is it's this faith and consensus which ok fred francis i'm friends with and just go jump in there because i know actual history ok you know

actually social movements that look something like occupy wall street had been very very important in american history the american revolution it came out of a social movement in the united states it wouldn't have it wouldn't have triumphed without that social movement abolitionists set in motion the political currents which led to civil war and the emancipation of the slaves the labor movement. flared up in the one nine hundred thirty s. these did not look like. electoral representative politics they have the distinctive dynamics of movements movements look feel and talk here from like. campaign politics or elected politicians when you when you're so dismissive of the movement because it hasn't put out a series of legislative program magic goals. you're not comparing it to other

movements this movement has i mean credible symbolic power because it has helped through the fog of jibberish and propaganda that has upset or i mean the fact french i'm going to jump in here we're going to want a short break and out of any short break we'll continue our discussion on the occupy movement stay with our.

well. it's technology innovations it's all the it's developments around russia we've got the future covered.

keep. welcoming to cross talk remind you we're talking about the protests sweeping across the united states and beyond. the key. the key change i want to go to you because you were very you were very very complimentary to francis is last comment before we went to the break and i don't

want to i want to get i don't want to i want to see if i can put you guys on the spot here james and francis first i'll go to james here i mean if the system isn't the solution needed if you can't work within the system because the system is so dysfunctional how do you create a new system without being systematic and creating something because again this consensus i mean i like the rhetoric i'm very interested in reminds me of eastern europe fighting communism in the 1980's and it's all really nice to hear but you know even solidarity had a very had to build a strong organization to finally defeat the communist regime eventually you have to do that you have to have leaders you have chapters and you have runners and all these types of things here i mean how do you how do you square the circle i think i think is a great question and i think patrick was right as well the question is when do those social movements that francis cites when do they become political in the sense that we now would recognize here if you look at the american revolution for example in seven hundred seventy two would anybody say there was

a revolution going on no i mean the thing died in seven hundred seventy eight with the boston massacre and it didn't get reconstituted in seventy eight seventy three did the abolitionists actually make the revolution the second american revolution we call the civil war because russian no there had to be a translation from evolutionism to political anti-slavery we're not at that stage yet we're still in a stage of it seems to me anyway intellectual inquiry he allowed. advocation that's where we should be we don't know the future yet and we're going to have to work it out but obviously yes we're going to have to do something political now because it seems to be completely pointless live in france or so kind of begs the question what do you do i where do you go i mean i said i'm very sympathetic to you but i mean i don't see how you get from point a to point b. let alone get from a to z. well first you're treating movements as they occur at a single point in time and all the movements all the great movements in american history have occurred have unfolded over

a fairly long period of time the labor movement unfolded over probably twelve years the civil rights movement began in the one nine hundred fifty s. subsided even by the early one nine hundred seventy s. the movement then creates. a kind of your or of communication it introduces new messages that into the political system that regular politics suppresses and the movement also introduces new forces into the political system that interact with the existing forces the movement doesn't create its own outcome the outcome is the result of the angle fred francis dream of the answer is to be fair to be fair to all go to patrick here on this one i mean again i mean if the movement isn't focused on what it wants to accomplish and how to accomplish it how does it get there because all those are social movements have

been mentioned on this program here ever wish in the realm of merican revolution i mean these were very political ok these from this movement now that we see occupy wall street is extremely economic ok it's the how the system functions and for whom the how do you commie functions and for whom these are it's very different than the social movements that we've had in the past. well i think if you called you're going to the american version by the end of the summer sent an economic movement because you're just looking for a large part economic independence or big ones but i think that the difference to your really looking at is that there's been sort of syrian revolution or the abolition or you know labor movement those represented fundamentally american ideals and if there's something that sort of first off i was. like oh well should we be it's generally the idea that government in the state in some way will be able to transform our society reduce inequality and there's no you can really be actively join in in a political process to reduce inequality and if that's not always very kind of

elite misery then to tell you otherwise you do as a result of this francisco. well this movement is distinct it's actually from the movements of the twentieth century because it's very skeptical of government that's what its emphasis on the general assembly on reaching consensus on total democracy free flights free flights it's disappointment that skepticism of the way government has functioned in the twentieth and twenty first century is that government is really an instrument of capitalism a james go ahead jump in can i can i step in here i mean to cite the evolutionist movement or to cite the american revolution that's fine but the abolitionists were explicitly and very self consciously anti political they refused to enter the electoral arena because they thought it would corrupt them they were right it did corrupt them but the anti-slavery movement that did get electoral between eight

hundred forty eight and eight hundred sixty one made a huge difference the point is the evolutionists were anti-political just like it seems to me occupy wall street only some of them some of them were in the center of the united states. ok i think in a charles sumner i might agree yeah ok patrick i mean i want to pick up on something you said earlier and i want to just get it clear for you is the occupy wall street movement un-american in your opinion. yeah it is i don't think it's i don't think it represents the way that american democracy works the idea of consensus which is american democracy is american democracy work is working for the average person today. the average person or in our own system i want i want to know that it's it's all right our system isn't treating average american very well right now with a dozen say the system is for not only for. our political process and democracy these are we democracy takes time and so even though our political process is stalled right now that isn't seems well it really isn't harlan is trying to go to

james over sort of if i can go to james on the banks were in trouble the congress got together pretty fast and told them out then they mean really matter of weeks ok it does move very quickly as they censor invested interest are at stake here but the very principle of a representative democracy seems to be pretty low on the priority list right now because this is the whole reason why people are opting out of it because it didn't work for him i think i'll do my wall street is quintessentially american because its fundamental question is how do we achieve equality patrick may be right democracy is ugly and it works slowly and it doesn't work on consensus even so it seems to me that the fundamental question they're asking is how do we achieve equality that there's nothing more american than that. francis i mean i don't know if it's to create equality but i think what a lot of people are saying they want to fair playing field i think that's that's fair to ask isn't it i mean you look at all of these graduates coming out of university terribly and dad and they have to go back and move in with their parents and get you know i really get paid an hourly wage and i just creates

a vicious cycle of get it you'll never get out of it and i think that's a good enough reason for a lot of people to protest i mean the system doesn't help them the system helps the people that are have vested vested interest in keeping the system the same way is it is today i worry i think that most participants in occupy wall street would agree the issue is extreme in quality and the political economy that isn't functional for fourteen million unemployed for. millions of young people. i'll graduate from college only to find themselves deeply in debt and unable to get a job for the people who don't even get help from the tabooed safety net in the united states and meantime and everybody knows this now as a result of this scandal that the spangles that emerged during the financial

crisis meantime lots of big companies hardly pay taxes we bail out wall street we bail out general motors and the banks refused to write down the principle of inflated mortgages that the system isn't working all right i wanted i wanted one something that states such are going to quote something that you wrote i think is interesting you're talking about the occupy wall street movement their food system does seem to encapsulate quite neatly their vision for how the world should work free high quality stuff should appear for their consumption what do you mean by that. well i mean i think that it was a particularly funny thing because the that's why guys like order to go ahead. they're getting the site high quality. then a couple of their cooks are actually employed at blue hill with some strange expensive restaurants just a county and just some what's what it's it's not really ninety nine percent of america out there it's these it's for to

a large extent unemployed college graduates just basically who are over educated or well educated if you want to call it. who like to you know sort of get out there and do their their democratic thing but those really are the people that are hurting in america and i did this did represent the those who oppress america and just let me finish i mean the college if we're going to if we're really if it's really about say writing down student loan debt for college graduates who are unemployed now because graduates are the only segment of america right now that are actually doing very well your employment rate more than four or five percent and their incomes have grown over the last twenty or thirty years i mean that's that's a perfect example of why occupy wall street is really representing sort of the the limitations of the of the chattering classes in not of the you know the middle and the americans who are really really hurting james you want to jump in there the chattering classes i had yes yes i i i have to say that you got find that ridiculous permanent residents of zuccotti park might well fit the demographic that

you're citing unemployed college graduates but if you watch what happens. after hours after people have gone to work it's very very different if you watch the demonstrations if you watch the marches if you participate in them you'll see that the labor movement is there and see that all kinds of people there in fact the mail that i got after i did an interview for rockers on this question came from people who said to me i can't get there i work for a living what do i do i want to support this movement i cannot because i'm working nine to five what do i do so i think that's a mischaracterization at least ok happening francis i want to give you the last word on this program a year from now where is this movie going to be. i think a year from now this movement will have planned out from the parks and plazas where there are relatively small encampments of people by the way all movements begin with relatively small groups the civil rights movement didn't start out as

a majority harry in movement nor did the american revolution this movement is in that sense that they are in paris are going to have to campaign here a very very interesting discussion folks many thanks my guest today in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time remember rastafarians. can. still. a very warm welcome to you this is your news today protesters on the. street they have. been chance

a good chance to try to get the status of the human experiments people sitting with the weakest you dismiss rap music awards it goes to the movies literally twice a global economy and its arcane things as financial tips to the research clambering to maintain our confidence in markets and economics wants to be seen trade imbalances recession look the nation's close to collapsing a subprime loan foreclosed homes. to fail switchblade see can feel little things us crash seven and smashed it seems there's a place called it just isn't enough and the sports field just programs increase the total economy.

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