three thirty pm in moscow these iraqi headlines anger against ruling generals gathers momentum as crowds packed into cairo's tahrir square which you can see in these live pictures which has seen more than forty people killed since saturday meanwhile former associate of former president hosni mubarak has patiently been appointed as prime minister by egypt's ruling military council. serbs in northern kosovo say nato forces broke their promise by driving her move toward border barricades this follows a night of violence when warning shots and tear gas for use against protesters in.

a landmark lawsuit filed against the the wanita for hosting one of america's secret prisons those human rights activist speak up for a man taken there and allegedly tortured for ending up in blood hanum a. cross talk coming up next with peter lavelle on the unfolding events of the arab spring and what the protesters real goals maybe stay with us here on our key. it. was. a low in welcome across our computer we knew tensions in violence but in doubt many of the hopes that the heart of the egyptian revolution is mubarak's military establishment angling to remain in power will next week's parliamentary elections be held and if they are it will be seen as fair and legitimate.

to cross-talk egypt's prospects i'm joined by running al maliki in cairo she is the chief editor of the daily news egypt in high thought we have david because he is a professor of middle east studies at the university of haifa and in london we cross to karl charo he's a middle east blogger all right this is cross-eyed i mean we are all more my guests can jump in anytime they want but first marcia is egypt's revolution progressing well events are changing fast and it's hard to say right now but tension in egypt has remained unrelenting for more than a week now the country's health ministry says at least forty people have been killed and almost a thousand were injured in clashes between security forces and protesters calling for the end to the military's heavy handed the riot some of the fiercest since the ouster of president hosni mubarak last february has clenched the country into the kind of turmoil that market early days of the arab spring unquote mission to give thousands in those in charge of egypt would be well advised to take people's

political demands and justify concerns seriously and to act fast to create the right environment for the upcoming elections suffer but several political parties have already suspended their electoral campaigns while protesters say the parliamentary elections scheduled for november twenty eighth will be meaningless unless the supreme council hands over power in media play until they feel more. well mohammad the man currently in charge of egypt and trust the public face of the staff did not want power. we will stick to the timeline of parliamentary elections followed by presidential elections in june twenty twelve and then the military will return to its barracks but only if the people want to and only to me referendum. but the statement does little to placate the protesters who have contributed and and the military leadership as the continuation of the mubarak regime there are claims that the military has a record of abuses on par with that of mubarak's have been backed by organizations

like amnesty international. but not everyone has joined the protesters the muslim brotherhood who are poised to clean them also in the upcoming elections are taking a wait and see approach in part out of the road could be moved and many in egypt believe that postponing elections could only entrenched military rule which in turn would further inflame the current instability one thing's clear is that the status quo is untenable well let's see about that i mean if i go to you first let's start with the conspiracy theories a lot of people saying the current violence of this week and that's going on as we speak right now is something that the military actually wanted to have happen in the first place because they dream we don't want to have these elections because they're actually afraid of the outcome i think this is the biggest mystery it seems like this would be motive for them to postpone the elections but there is at the same time they're insisting on having elections i mean this morning there was a press conference with members of. this cast and. the head of the

electoral commission and they were just voicing the plans. they've had in place for the november elections and it seems it will not impose upon the elections so at this point it is not really clear why this situation has been made to reach this head. to me i think this is just gross mismanagement which is characteristic of this cast since they first took over ok so you're saying oh maybe the military should get out of the business of politics but it doesn't seem that way because it seems to me that no matter what you actually outcome if there is the election the military is a net loser because everyone talks about losing political power but actually they will be the biggest. loser in terms of the economy because as is well known the egyptian military is so heavily vested in the economy that any kind of democratic election that reflects the will of the people will say hey it's not belongs to the state not to the military it could be taken away from them you have threatening

them at the moment is not only so-called democratic elections that might or might not happen in five days what is really a threat to the military rule over egypt now is very awakening of their evolutionary sentiments among the people of egypt and that's what at stake what is at stake of the moment and many people especially in the west are scratching their heads or thinking but you have elections in five days why would you go back to this three it's well they haven't been paying paying any attention to what's been happening in the past eight months and what the military has been doing in terms of violations and excesses all aimed at maintaining its control and elections had they brought in let's say a victory for the muslim brotherhood would have actually strengthened the position of the military and that's why i think what's happening at the moment in the here and elsewhere in egypt this we forget is very very important in stopping god and saying very clearly it's time for the military to get out of the business of politics completely if i go to david i think it's very interesting here is that the

military me actually carrying a page from mubarak's way of rule and being backed by the united states for so many decades is it saying to the people look it's so unstable whatever the election outcome is is it weird that you are guardians of security with the guardians of peace all of this stuff going out all going on and i tell you scare it is just chaos but you need us which of course egyptians don't believe that anymore very few arabs in the middle east believe their governments are actually protecting them actually in most cases they still oppress them so the military is trying to have it both ways matey. well i'm not quite sure about the speculation going all of the neutrik owes a conspiracy to postpone the elections i have driving it and i've written about it and have derived lead from the so many elections before egypt that in thirty or forty years the real three regime time and again we have had the.

coast of the there was the brotherhood the prior look to participate in the elections with our provocation they have a dialogue about iraq quite sure of this equation right now because the situation immediately so severe is so frightening is so unstable a is so cozy really are a danger to the situation to the whole situation of the middle east so i'm not quite sure this is according to the situation but let me tell you that about what we've seen this is the site we've seen from that how do you square this is really frightening because this is that this does not leave to progression to democracy to open society but simply to energy and in politics go down to the streets the ten doesn't mean politics but is a much

a careless and when there is chaos in the street all politics are it doesn't work it means that the government has a has not could not to rule the political reigns and this is absolutely disastrous here and if i go back to you in cairo it seems to me that you know people are using the the muslim brotherhood one way or another saying oh oh well we should have the elections because we really don't want them to have so many seats in parliament and at the same time saying that you know the country isn't ready for democracy that we have to postpone their so you know again it's kind of lecturing the people because the people are going to vote in a certain way and there are certain powers that be within egypt in iraq saying that would be the wrong vote the wrong decision. well i think we need to go back to why this crisis has emerged i don't think it has anything to do with elections it i think people are i think in general we're looking at the at the wrong picture where we're tying it to the elections because the elections are so i mean they're going

to happen and a couple of days but the issue is not about elections i think the explosion that started on saturday was a manifestation of the frustrations that have been building up and culminating over the past ten months there have been twelve thousand people subjected to military trials there have been reports of terrible abuses by a military police and by the police trials of the former icons of the of the former regime have been dragging on in a way that has proved i think beyond a doubt to many people that they are not being taken seriously a lot of the police officers who were implicated in the killing of protesters during the uprising in january have been even released they're not even held in prison pending investigations or pending court cases and they've been released and they are intimidating the families of the of the marchers so there's a whole combination of issues that culminated. on saturday when and exploded on

saturday when the police used excessive force with a handful i mean maybe not more than one hundred protesters who were families of martyrs who decided to to continue with the tent to draw attention to the fact that they have not been given any conversation and have been there have not been given any compensation for their you know or did get given any medical treatment by the state since the uprising this is the real problem the fact that elections seem to be taking place there that this happened right before the elections has just complicated the issue and the fact that it's been mishandled so badly instead that there is that there is a problem going on and what is happening now is a manifestation of all this frustration ok carol do you. really believe the military when they say they want to get out of politics if they really want to promote the democratic process because the military just has such a comfortable position in egyptian society and they have for decades that was one of mubarak's ways to divide and rule they gave the military so many privileges that

the military just just can't fathom not ruling egypt. absolutely not i don't buy that for one second and the military class let's remember the rulers of egypt at the moment don't just resign and the officers that came into power after mubarak left they are the same class the military class that has been ruling the arab republics for four or five decades and they have been or pressing and stifling the development of arab societies so this is their very last stand and they need to go or they need to go for democracy to prevail in objects as i say and i fully agree with iranian had and i this is but to add them a very important point that many people onto this three it's when they're trying to prevent the possibility of stuff as it's called their superior council for the armed forces kind of establishing its itself as a super constitutional authority ahead of the coming changes in egypt and thereby

kind of having an overall control of the political system so regardless of the outcome of the parliamentary and presidential elections it would still wind up a lot of power but but lastly i just want to go back to what david was saying which i think are let me let you finish and we have to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on egypt state party. in. the. world with. her and more mouths to feed but where will the food come from can science provide the answers for the future of food under the microscope. we've got the future covered.

if you can if. the if to.

welcome back to cross talk i'm here a little to remind you we're discussing egypt's political quagmire. ok. ok david i'd like to go to you in haifa i mean we've been talking about the disturbances and violence in the last few days and going as we look towards the elections here but you know every since mubarak has has left the scene it's really the issue of social injustice that is not being addressed whatsoever as you know we see a lot of state workers getting a nice pay increase the army has everything the military hasn't had anything it controls in society change whatsoever and you just have the same social issues of the dictatorship of mubarak still exist under this military that runs the country and that's what's really angry people well first of all this is not a difficult. authoritarian regime egypt is

a pretty state from july twenty third one thousand nine hundred fifty two and this is a brutal regime and the mirror is a regime this is a regime will not give up they will not give up in one thousand perhaps he's weak i don't know i haven't yet decided what is our character all these but. there were no give up and the last is this is the most important things first the masses marching on the streets and the second is the power of the while in a very in egyptian politics but mainly if you can say arab politics now it's a mess is marching on is existing the road toward democracy you are mistaken with this if. they if they don't mean he believes in or freeville the west or way right . they mean is to less to ease the oppression of the rule or to be more completion that note if they don't understand what democracy ease as they don't understand

what could be a listen easy western way now if i if i understand what's going on in the streets of cairo param and it's going to whiz the streets or in other arab states the and they don't they don't go marching positively to out so who our are. institution is a political a gay city which is political goals i'm afraid they would say that you would really want is not the civil society but to lead to society the railroads the scale you've done with your promises hundred point isn't brought up a lot of violence the younger generation you've got i would go into k.t. generation you brought up a lot of right around here if i could go to you so what we just heard when we just heard what we just heard from david is that gyptian saying basically arabs are just not ready for democracy they can't fathom the idea of one person one vote right and that's what i got from that i can i completely i completely disagree with that

point of view i think egyptians understand exactly what they want i think they aren't democracy they want rule of law they want. quality they want social justice and they want to feel that their human rights are being respected this is why people went out into the streets on january twenty first and i do not believe all that egyptians want a religious rule or islamic rule this is not what injections of all political currents are talking about except for a fringe group of maybe salafist who are giving that discourse without really knowing what it means in general this is absolutely not true i think people and egypt know what they want exactly and her hands are still continue continuing to fight for it ok carl in looking at western media mainstream media covering these events here i can't help but feel that they face where they're not ready yet they're not ready for their just as many going to college to ruminate on it sorry

for going to get a car in london first here i still get this an issue impression that you know that you know look at all these disturbances maybe they should coffee elections because you know they won't have us and i like to leave them in you know they may have going to morrow say carl did you hear my question karl. yes yes i heard your question and i think there's a lot of anxiety in this that's reflected by what david is saying as well and i must congratulate him because he's doing his very best to kind of impersonate the character to try not to cause zionists and he's carrying it off very very very successfully i mean why his saying is utterly despicable about his perception of people which he threw it off as a comment like that as muslims they are not muslims there are muslims and christians into it and they're fighting for a better future the fact that he and others in israel and maybe in the west would portray it as some kind of decline and going back to the middle ages only to fret this sense of anxiety about what they're calling but this is

a very constructive sense of an arche if we don't like this form of politics in these we're writing off hundreds of years of kind of the history of western democracy look at the french revolution look at the movement look at the world all this movement that about guided democracy and going through the streets to get it to get your rights we cannot have a situation of parliamentary election and pretending to bring about democracy in this polite way when there's a chorus of controlled by by the military so please spare us the stereotypes and let's look at very oddity of the situation on the ground which is about the real aspirations for change and i'm not going to accept any sort of dismissive denial of all right david you would like to reply to that i agree i gave a reply there is there is a time delay so david would you like to reply that. i like very much to react to this this is not to be an israeli look we have. the newest board published in egypt thirty eight percent of the egyptian would vote for

a muslim brotherhood freedom and justice party first percent for the no less radical in a new party. a pew research poll published in june two thousand and ten indicates that ninety five of the egyptian public would welcome the islamic politics eighty four percent supported the death penalty for those who abuse them eighty two percent in favor of stoning people who could lead to adultery fifty four percent justify suicide bombings fifty nine percent say he's a muslim fundamentalist and only twenty seven percent was the modernizers these are the the polls investigation done by the river and bahrain and at the site even if they did condemn you for that of being israeli i'm sorry i have to say to my viewers we do have one time delay here with your grandchildren hieromonk regard hire an air of let's see where we could go to cairo now please ok you did look like you agreed with what david had to say go right ahead. yes i don't agree with any of

what he's saying and i think you should spare is also the polls there don't clarify the poll results don't clarify what questions were asked when you when you make these strange percentages this is absolutely not true and even if thirty eight percent of the people choose the muslim brotherhood does that does not necessarily mean that the muslim brotherhood represents. some story or represents some kind of iran style cruel or a demand for that they are part of the fabric of the society and they will have to be incorporated like everybody else in the society all the you know i've been covering at islamic movements over the past five years and my newspaper and everybody at this and on islam is all believe that every single is that there are the society needs to be involved in the political process so we are not in the end in any. way going to exclude anyone from this this mosaic this

situation now is as follows we are in is about to have elections and mind you most of the people here are not against having the elections now the fact that there have been angered and have been driven to go back to the here because of the excesses of the ministry of interior and because the people have been killed. a few tiley will for no reason at all does not mean that we are against having elections and going through the process of the democratic process that will reduce of the army council ok and this is the situation we're in now karl thank you again looking at it's taking we can change the angle here is the outside looking in the egyptian situation in the election that the impending election i just can't help but feel that the the west particularly the united states would like to see the military stay in control of egypt in one form or another or over a very slow time period phased out because that's an ally that's a strategic ally it's not the status of egypt it's the egyptian military that's their ally right now and all of these fanning about. you know the brother of the

the muslim brotherhood is going to take over and for that this isn't all that but still you still that i still see that in the mainstream here i just can't help that the west would like to see much slower change in egypt and other countries look at bahrain for example. absolutely i mean this is one of the most important a side effect if you like of the arab spring is it explores the decline in the west and in particularly the american power to influence events in the middle east has become and it's allowing all these other agents to kind of push forward and try to if they their own agenda i mean they've just withdrawn from iraq that that was a big big retreat and in egypt they kind of unlike other countries where you hear them being more vocal so you hear the american administration calling for change much more aggressively they've had the second chance now they've had a chance to rehearse what they could have said in the case of the. fluff that

because they have absolutely no kind of consistency they have nor real policy and they have not in direction what they what they're hoping at the moment is somehow that the military would regain control and ensure a more kind of snot runs ition in favor of their own interests and outlooks for that is and what absolutely it can or deserve is the lark actually the power to influence events and they are not an equal here and consistent idea about how to advocate change or or even kind of maintain a consistent position of the democracy movement which in my opinion is remaking a lot of credibility and also is reckoning their position a lot of the outside of that as i say is for anyone who's interested in democracy and secular forms of. practice in politics is that kind of weakening of external influence opens up a great opportunity is in our country is and i think it's an opportunity that progressive politics and parties have to kind of rise up to ok i did finish up in

cairo because that's where the election is going to be in egypt is going to hold a few days it will be election be deemed after the fact is legitimate in fear when you think. i hope that they are managed that i hope because staff does one thing right is that they manage to secure these elections my biggest fear is that people will be too afraid to go out in the streets and goads and the next couple of days. is that they've discovered does this right and manages to secure the polling stations and manages to exist and see this happen you know and is transparent way as possible then i think they should be deemed fair and and then they should be i'm hoping that they will be fair and transparent and adventuresome people are very vigilant they're all watching. me here i hope the best for the age after the election many thanks my guest today in london haifa and in cairo and thanks our viewers for watching us iraqi shia next time remember i stopped.

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