pretty thing for me kevin owen here in moscow tonight you're watching i'll tell you these are all top stories houses gather on cairo's tahrir square for massive protests planned as a final call for military rulers to hand over power of mediately to civilian government rallies that have seen egypt's most violent clashes since mubarak's fall of now entering the second. the arab league says syria's ignored a deadline to accept foreign observers in the country now faces further sanctions that's the from six to seven a humanitarian corridor war in syria

a move widely seen as a first step towards military intervention. and conflicting sides on serbia's border with northern coast of one of the possible escalation of violence local service a nato forces broke up earlier agreements trying to tear down a border barricade a move that led to fierce clashes. next thing cross talk with people all about the unfolding events of the arab spring what the protesters real goal. it is. a low in welcome across our computer little renewed tensions in violence between doubt many of the hopes that the heart of the egyptian revolution is mubarak's military establishment angling to remain in power will next week's parliamentary elections be held and if they are will be seen as fair and legitimate.

and. cross-talk egypt's prospects i'm joined by running al maliki in cairo she is the chief editor of the daily news egypt and i thought we have david because he is a professor of middle east studies at the university of haifa and in london we crossed a karl charo he's a middle east blogger all right this is cross-eyed i mean we all know my guys can jump in anytime they want but first marcia is egypt's revolution progressing well events are changing fast and it's hard to say right now but tension in egypt has remained unrelenting for more than a week now the country's health ministry says at least forty people have been killed and almost four thousand were injured in clashes between security forces and protesters calling for the end to the military's heavy handed the riot some of the fiercest since the ouster of president hosni mubarak last february have plunged the country into the kind of turmoil that market early days of the arab spring unquote

mission to get ins in those in charge in egypt would be well advised to take people's political demands unjustified concerns seriously and to act to create the right environment for the upcoming elections. but several political parties have already suspended their electoral campaigns while protesters say the parliamentary elections scheduled for an american are twenty eight will be meaningless unless the supreme council hands over power in media play on tuesday field march. so mohamed some tally the man currently in charge of egypt and trust the public saying the staff did not want power. we will stick to the timeline of parliamentary elections followed by presidential elections in june twenty eighth well and then the military will return to its barracks but only if the people want to and only through referendum. of the statement a little to placate the protesters who have come to you to entirely and the military leadership as the continuation of the bar equation in their claims that

the military has a record of abuses on par with that of mubarak's have been backed by organizations like amnesty international. but not everyone has joined protesters the muslim brotherhood who are poised to clean the wall scene in the upcoming elections are taking a wait and see approach in part out of fear of the world could be moved and many in egypt believe that postponing elections could only entrenched military rule which in turn would further inflame the current instability one thing is clear is that the status quo is untenable well let's see about that i mean if i go to you first let's start with the conspiracy theories a lot of people saying that the current violence of this week that's going on as we speak right now is something that the military actually wanted to have happen in the first place because they dream we don't want to have these elections because they're actually afraid of the outcome i think this is the biggest mystery it seems like this would be motive for them to postpone the elections but there is at the same time they're insisting on having the elections i mean this morning there was a press conference with members of. the staff and. the head of the

electoral commission and they were just voicing the plans that this leave had in place for the november twenty eighth elections and it seems that they will not oppose the elections so at this point it is not really clear why this situation has been made to reach this head. to me i think this is just gross mismanagement which is characteristic of this cast since they first took over ok it's interesting karl maybe the military should get out of the business of politics but it doesn't seem that way because it seems to me that no matter what election outcome if there is the election the military is a net loser because everyone talks about losing political power but actually they will be the bigger. loser in terms of the economy because as is well known the gyptian military is so heavily vested in the economy that any kind of democratic election that reflects the will the people will say hey it's that belongs to the

state not to the military it could be taken away from them yeah but what's threatening them of the moment is not only so-called democratic elections that might or might not happen in five days what is really a threat to the military rule over egypt now is very awakening of their evolutionary sentiments among the people of egypt and that's what at stake what is at stake of the moment and many people especially in the west are scratching their heads or thinking but you have elections in five days why would you go back to this three it's well they haven't been paying any attention to what's been happening in the past eight months and what the military has been doing in terms of violations and excesses all aimed at maintaining its control and elections have they brought in let's say a victory for the muslim brotherhood would have actually strengthened the position of the military and that's why i think what's happening at the moment in the here and elsewhere and egypt this we forget is very very important in stopping that and saying very clearly it's time for the military to get out of the business of

politics completely if i go to david i think it's very interesting here is that the military me actually be carrying a page from move body way of rule and being backed by the united states for so many decades is it saying to the people look it's so unstable whatever the election outcome is is that we're the guardians of security we're the guardians of peace all of this stuff going out all going on and i tell you scariest is just chaos that you need which of course egyptians don't believe that anymore very few arabs in the middle east believe that governments are actually protecting them actually in most cases they still oppress them so the military is trying to have it both ways maybe . well i'm not quite sure about the speculation going over all of that the military code is a conspiracy to dispose elections i have derived it and i've written about it and have derived beat for the so many elections before in egypt thirty thirty or forty years the military regime time and again we have had the.

coast of the is that most of brotherhood in acquiring look at participate in the elections with our provocation they have a dialogue about i'm not quite sure this is racial right now because the situation in egypt is so severe is so frightening is so unstable it is so cozy really a danger to the situation to the whole situation the middle east so i'm not quite sure this is the situation but let me tell you that about what we've seen this is the sights we've seen from the how do you square this is really frightening because this is does this does not leave to progress to democracy to open society but simply to energy put it when qualities go down to the streets eighty doesn't mean politics. is. a much

a careless and when there is chaos in the street politics are it doesn't work it means that the government has has a has not could not to rule the political reins and this is absolutely disastrous ok many if i go back to you in cairo it seems to me that you know people are using the the muslim brotherhood one way or another saying oh well we should have the elections because we really don't want them to have so many seats in and they're in parliament and at the same time saying that you know the country isn't ready for democracy that we have to postpone their so you know again it's kind of lecturing the people because the people are going to throw a vote in a certain way and there are certain powers that be within egypt and abroad saying that would be the wrong vote the wrong decision. brooke i think we need to go back to why this crisis has emerged i don't think it had anything to do with elections this is i think people are i think in general we're looking at there at the wrong

picture where we're tying it to the elections because the elections are so i mean they're going to happen and a couple of days but the issue is not about elections i think the explosion that started on saturday was a manifestation of the frustrations that have been building up and culminating over the past ten months there have been twelve thousand people subjected to military trials there have been reports of terrible abuses by the military police and by the police their trials of the former icons of the of the former regime have been dragging on and a way that has proved i think beyond a doubt to many people that they are not being taken seriously a lot of the police officers who are implicated in the killing of protesters during the uprising in january have been even released they're not even held in prison pending investigations or pending court cases and they've been released and they are intimidating the families of the of the martyrs so there's a whole combination of issues that culminated. on saturday when exploded on

saturday when the police used excessive force with a handful i mean maybe not more than one hundred protesters who are families of martyrs who decided to go to continue with that and to draw attention to the fact that they have not been given any compensation and have been there have not been given any compensation for their you know or did get given any medical treatment by the state since the uprising this is the real problem and the fact that elections seem to be taking place there that this happened right before the elections has just complicated the issue and the fact that it's been mishandled so badly instead that there is that there is a problem going on and what is happening now is the manifestation of all this frustration ok carol do you. i really believe the military when they say they want to get out of politics or they really want to promote the democratic process because the military just has such a comfortable position in egyptian society i mean they have for decades that was

one of mubarak's ways to divide and rule against the military so many privileges of the military just just can't fathom not ruling egypt absolutely not i don't buy that for one second and the military class have to remember the rulers of egypt at the moment don't trust their present officers that came into power after mubarak left they are the same class the military class that has been ruling the ira but it publics for four or five decades and they have been oppressing and stifling the development of arab societies so this is their very last stand and they need to go or they need to go for democracy to prevail in republics as i say and i fully agree with iranian had an alice is about to add them a very important point that many people into this three it's when they're trying to prevent the possibility of staff as it's called their superior council for the armed forces the kind of. constitutional authority and head

of the on coming changes in egypt and thereby kind of having an overall control of the political system so regardless of the outcome of the parliamentary and presidential elections it would still with a lot of power but but lastly i just want to go back to what david was saying which i think are let me let you finish and we have to go to assure breaking out of the actual proof will continue our discussion on egypt's state party. if. you want.

edirne e the length of life. the desire for the best of things a hunger that drowns out our inner world. the story of one man who returns whom after years of alienation. coming to the monks why paths of one watching. the wild things of the. mayor in more mouths to feed but where will the food come from can science provide the answers to the future of food under the microscope if we've got the future covered. ok. if you think to. welcome back to cross talk i'm here

a little to remind you we're discussing egypt's political quagmire. ok. ok david i'd like to go to you in haifa i mean we've been talking about the the disturbances in the violence in the last few days and going as we look towards the elections here but you know every since mubarak has has left the scene it's really the issue of social injustice that is not been addressed whatsoever as you know we see a lot of state workers going to a nice pay increase the army has everything the military hasn't had anything it controls in society changed whatsoever and you just have the same social issues of the dictatorship of mubarak still exist under this military that runs the country and that's what's really angering people well first of all this is not a difficult picture to. authoritarian regimes egypt is a pretty state from dry country third nine hundred fifty two and this is

a military regime and the mirror is a response is a regime will not give up they will not give up and so on tower perhaps he's weak i don't know i haven't yet decided what his character all is but again. there were no give out and the masses this is the most important things first the masses marching on the streets and the second is the power of the while in a hurry in egyptian politics but mainly if you can say arab politics now about the mess is marching on is it exists really they really throw for democracy you are mistaken when they say full reign here they and they don't mean he believes in or free the west away. they mean is to less is a question of the rule or to be more completion that but not if they don't understand what democracy ease as they don't understand what a girl is an easy western way now if i if i understand what's going on in the

streets of cairo where i'm at and it's going to whiz the streets or in other arab states the they don't they don't go marching positively two outs are so who our are. if institution is going to fold a six which is political goals i'm afraid of what they too would really want is the civil society but to lead a society so here a already or so it's ok do you not look down here from some other point isn't it you brought up a lot of audience the young generation you that i would go and educated generation you brought up a lot of right around here if i could go to you so what we just heard and we just heard what we just heard from david is that gyptian saying basically arabs are just not ready for democracy they can't fathom the idea of one person one vote right that's what i got from that i can i completely i completely disagree with that point of view i think a difference understand exactly what they want i think the airlines democracy they

want rule of law they want. quality they want social justice and they want to feel that their human rights are being respected this is why people went out into the streets and january twenty first and i do not believe all that egyptians want a religious rule or islamic rule this is not what what egyptians of all political currents are talking about except for a fringe group of maybe cell assists who are giving that discourse without really knowing what it means in general this is absolutely not true i think people and egypt know what they want exactly and and are still continue continuing to fight for it ok to carl in looking at western media mainstream media covering these events here i can't help but feel that they face when they're not ready yet they're not ready for they're just out let me go to the car to let me go it's all right so you've got a car in london first here i still get this and this impression that you know that

you know look at all these disturbances maybe they should call off the elections because you know they won't have us and election will you please i mean you know they may have going to morrow say carl did you hear my question karl. yes yes i heard your question and i think there's a lot of anxiety in this that's sort of selective by what david is saying as well and i must congratulate him because he's doing his very best to kind of impersonate the character to try not to cause zionists and he's carrying it off very very very successfully i mean why his saying is utterly despicable about his perception of people which he threw it off as a comment like that as muslims they are not muslims there are muslims and christians into it and they're fighting for a better future the fact that he and others in israel and maybe in the west would portray it as some kind of decline and going back to the middle ages only to frets this sense of anxiety about what they're calling but this is a very constructive sense of honor if we don't like this dire form of politics in these were writing off hundreds of years of kind of the history of western

democracy look at the french revolution look at the movement look at all this movement that about direct democracy and going through the streets to get it to get your rights we cannot have a situation of parliamentary election and pretending to bring about democracy in this polite way when there's a chorus of controlled by by the military so please spare us the stereotypes and let's look at variability of the situation on the ground which is very aspirations for change and i'm not going to accept any sort of dismissive denial of all right david you would like to reply i did and i agree i gave a reply and there is there is a time delay so david would you like to reply that. i'd like very much to react to release this is not to be he's rarely look he have. the newest forward published in egypt thirty eight percent of the egyptian would vote for a muslim brotherhood freedom and justice party first percent for the no less for the car new car team. a pew research poll published in june two thousand and ten

indicates that ninety five of the egyptian public would welcome the start with politics eighty four percent support a death penalty for those who leave islam eighty two percent in favor of stoning people who could meet adultery fifty four percent justify suicide bombings fifty nine percent say he's a muslim fundamentalist and only twenty seven percent was the modernizers these are the power of the polls investigation done by american bahrain needed to cite if they did continue for that or being israeli i'm sorry i have to say to my viewers we do have one time delay here that is a regular guy around regarding hiero now let's see where we can go to cairo now please ok you did look like you agreed with what david had to say go right ahead. yes i don't agree with any of what he's saying and i think you should spare is also

the polls that don't clarify the poll results don't clarify what questions were asked when you when you make these strange percentages this is absolutely not true and even if thirty eight percent of the people choose the muslim brotherhood does that does not necessarily mean that the muslim brotherhood represents regression of some sort or represent some kind of iran style cruel or a demand for that they are part of the fabric of the society and they will have to be incorporated like everybody else in the society all the you know i've been covering this last week movements over the past five years and my newspaper and everybody is anonymous and on islam it's all believe that every single is that there of the society needs to be involved in the political process so we are not and in any. way going to exclude anyone from this this mosaic this situation now is as follows we are in this is about to have elections and mind

you most of the people in here are not against having the elections now the fact that they are have been angered and have been driven to go back to the here because of the excesses of the ministry of interior and because the people have been killed . a few tightly will for no reason at all does not mean that we are against having elections and going through the process of the democratic process that will rid us of the army council ok and this is the situation we're in now carl feingold chew again looking it's taken we could maybe change the angle here is the outside looking in it the egyptian situation in the election that the impending election i just can't help but feel that the the west particularly the united states just like to see the military stay in control of egypt in one form or another or over a very slow time period phased out because that's an ally that's a strategic ally it's not the status of egypt it's the egyptian military that's their ally right now and all of these fanning about. you know the brother of the muslim brotherhood is going to take over and the fanaticism and all that but still

he still that still see that in the mainstream here i just can't help that the west would like to see much slower change in egypt and other countries look at bahrain for example. absolutely i mean this is one of the most important a side effect if you like of the arab spring is it explores the decline in the west and particularly the american power to influence events in the middle east has become and it's allowing all this other agents to kind of push forward and try to dictate their own agenda i mean they've just withdrawn from iraq that's that was a big victory it and in egypt they kind of unlike other countries where you hear them being more vocal so you hear the american administration calling for change much more aggressively they've had the second chance now they've had a chance to rehearse what they could have said in the case of diarrhea and they're still flustered because they have absolutely no kind of consistency they have no real policy and they have not indicted action what they what they're hoping at the

moment is somehow that the military would regain control and ensure a more kind of transition in favor of their own interests and outlooks for that event but what absolutely a kind of deserve is the lark actually the power to influence events and they are not an equal here and consistent idea about how to advocate change or or even kind of maintain a consistent position about the democracy movement which in my opinion in making a lot of credibility and also is weakening their position a lot the upside of that as i say is for anyone who's interested in democracy and secular forms of practice in politics is that kind of weakening of external influence opens up great opportunities in our country is and i think it's an opportunity that progressive politics and parties have to kind of rise up to ok i did finish up in cairo because that's where the election is going to be in egypt is

going to be held a few days it will be election be deemed after the fact is legitimate and fair do you think. i hope that they are managed that i hope this staff does one thing right is that they managed to secure these elections my biggest fear is that people will be too afraid to go out in the streets and vote and the next couple of days. if that if the staff does this right and manages to secure the polling stations and manages to just see this happen you know and it is tense parent away as possible then i think they should be deemed sara and and and then they should be i'm hoping that they will be fair and transparent and then just people are very vigilant they're all watching i mean a lot of damage to me here i hope the best for the egyptian election many thanks my guest today in london haifa and in cairo and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. she the next time i remember i was talking. to.

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