here's how. this is the count enters its final stage the ruling united russia party has lost its sizeable majority but still comes out. commenting. on the results. for no less than it was killed in. russia withdraws its ambassador from qatar after he was attacked by border officials who tried to seize diplomatic mail from him. it ran claim to have shot

down a u.s. spy drone along its eastern border the use of american aircraft over the country is being seen as the latest evidence of washington to destabilize rationed beyond its influence. and russia expresses a concern for us to maintain military bases in afghanistan even after the planned twenty four to withdraw conference and can stay with the international community is set to decide the country's future. next long before nato faces begin withdrawing from afghanistan on the agenda today the legacy they'll leave behind to stay with us for that. well the earth science technology innovation all the lives developments

around russia we've got the future covered. story. below and welcome to crossfire computable going for the exit after ten years of an inconclusive war the united states and its allies are desperate to leave afghanistan by the end of two thousand and fourteen it is certain the occupation of this war torn country will come to an end other than this there is only merely hope . and you can. still. prospect the afghan retreat i'm joined by free but now we're in san francisco she's an award winning afghan american journalist and author of the book opium nation child brides drug lords and one woman's journey through afghanistan in washington we have he is founder and editor of mere rhetoric and in london we crossed to chris

nine am he is a spokesperson for stop the war coalition all right folks cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it but first i'd like to go to chris in london today we have the the bonn conference and it's a ten years ten years ago in two thousand and one they had they mapped out a glorious future for afghanistan ten years on they're trying to map out a way for the u.s. and its allies to get out now are they going to get out with any kind of dignity because well it will talk about the taliban in the situation in pakistan they're just waiting for the americans and their and their allies to leave. well this can be no dignity at all and that's mainly because the ten years has been ten years of disaster this country's been set back development has been. on all indexes development is much worse than it was tens of thousands of civilians have been killed by the occupation forces and billions and billions and billions of

dollars and pounds have been wasted on a war that has really done no good at all and made the world a more dangerous place on top of that two thousand american troops dead fall for nearly four hundred british troops dead and for war and this is a time when we're being told in our respective countries that we've got to make sacrifices public services are being run down u.s. is still spending one hundred ten billion dollars a year in afghanistan to kill people to maim people to anger people it's been a catastrophe and the problem is the politicians will admit that if i go to you in san francisco i mean ten years on what's the what's the checklist for you or what's the balance. i think i think we have to look at both sides of the situation. it's not going well that's something we have to be honest about but there has been many good things that have come out of this intervention i don't call it an occupation because in the beginning many many many afghans were pro the

intervention they believe that the united states and the coalition forces were going to come inside the country and make things better for them but that did not happen i was at the first bonn conference ten years ago i traveled to afghanistan i am a native afghan so the what the people of afghanistan wanted and what has happened are two very different things i think the numbers we can look at them both ways many good things have happened as well as bad there are unprecedented number of girls in schools now there's a basic health care care in areas that there wasn't before the media there's been a media blitz there are dozens of t.v. stations radio programs afghans in the urban areas have access to many things they did not have before that said we still do not have peace and without peace and security none of this is going to be sustainable so there needs to be a strategic change and that's brings up

a very good point where there is no peace and security after ten years there is still no light at the end of the tunnel when it comes to those two issues. i mean i think the three of us right and we need to be very precise about what we talk about when we talk about an occupation a study just came out last week that showed what the b.b.c. called dramatic drops in infant mortality dramatic drops in women dying in childbirth the access that's been provided by the coalition to health care the infrastructure that they've built that enables those kinds of things has made dramatic changes and additionally just to address your very first question operationally it has not been the disaster that it's often painted as al-qaeda has been operationally disabled according to u.s. troops and there is a way to leave with dignity provided that what happens is exactly what we're discussing now which is to say that the u.s. leaves an environment that's more secure than it was say a year ago two years ago that the afghan army and the afghan central government is able to exert more control than they are now which is to say that there is not

a hasty withdrawal and that the gains that we've just discussed have been solidified chris you want to jump in there go ahead but i. don't know where you get your facts and statistics from in. my opinion on the united nations and according to the united nations afghanistan they still virtually on the bottom of the human development index on almost any. parameter you want to judge it things have called worse for the afghan people over the last ten years the infrastructure is on the differences and said to justify it if you're if you're metrics have to we're going to. we're increasing so you're not going to the reuters poll which shows that afghanistan is the most dangerous country in the world for women. all of them sort of logical problems that polling has in countries with poor infrastructure but the objective well if you exactly know that exactly i mean it's

very hard to find and it's true you're right it's very hard to get any facts in afghanistan because the countries just for anyone. to go out of kabul. and just be the infrastructure is indeed destroyed and being destroyed but they don't keep ok gentlemen i don't think we need to argue how poor we need it we don't have to argue how poor afghanistan is i think we all do for a bit go ahead in san francisco i think we need to look at what went on the ground and i've had the opportunity to be on the ground in afghanistan polls that don't always represent the truth and that's true but the same time we also need to look at what was in afghanistan during the taliban period if women are it's a dangerous place for women to be now under the taliban and it's probably going outside into my place that the most dangerous place in the world all right i want to move forward here i want to move forward here i mean if i don't believe that if i go to washington here it's go back to security and peace ok because it looks like

being greedy and of another civil war. or are being seeded into the ground in the into the the war torn country of afghanistan because the taliban on both sides of the pakistan afghanistan border they're just waiting it out waiting it out and we have we saw the situation with pakistan where the pakistan taliban are just moving ever so closer closer to the border into afghanistan and actually taking up positions there the pakistanis are doing anything about it and they're just waiting for the united states and its allies to leave and that is the essence of another catastrophe for afghanistan. i mean i think that unfortunately your far more right than the people who would answer you so there are there are two argument there's arguments on both sides right there's the arguments that say we're making very very slow move moves toward. the central government to take control of the country for the first time in

a decade now the central government of afghanistan and iraq if i could ask you how confident are you of karzai government ok because it seems if we go back to public opinion polls afghans don't have a whole lot of confidence in him. i think i think that those polls are mostly accurate and i think they're reflected in western opinion as well and it gets back to what you were saying that security may be an illusion and we might have a civil war when we leave but that is a reason to stay longer not a reason to beat a hasty withdrawal ok you could take the argument the other way around and say the longer you stay the longer the more likely there will be a civil war as well we could you could go both ways i think it i think it's in what capacity we stay and if we continue to stay in the combat capacity i think things will continue to get worse it's very difficult to fight suicide bombers we've seen and palestine as we've seen in sri lanka the way the system of war and the methods of war have changed the insurgents during the soviet invasion were doing very

different things than they are doing now and we need to look at that we're not winning the war in the united states that needs to be recognised that sad leaving afghanistan as we did in the ninety's is morally reprehensible i think we need to stay and i think the best way to do that is peacekeeping troops but we also need to stay in terms of reconstruction much has changed for the better i think. i mean i was brought up earlier in the program chris brought it up to i mean why should the united states and europe pay for reconstruction of afghanistan when they have their own austerity issues to take care of at home afghanistan is no threat to europe and no threat to the united states right now. why do we help countries only if there is a perceived threat it was never a threat to europe or the united states that was just the reason used by politicians to go. there on friday was there even i would agree with that ok i mean

if i go to you i mean that's the whole point there i mean take out al qaeda claim victory and leave ok that's really what should have happened in the first place. well i don't think we should ever go on actually because i mean i don't think we need to look at all the laws afghanistan as one i finish go ahead and finish because that the reality of the situation is that you know the we've got to kind of break from this narrative that somehow if we stay longer then things are going to gradually get better and the reason we've got to break with it is because it's a fiction it's not based on the reality two thousand and ten was the most violent year in the occupation of afghanistan up to that point two thousand and eleven was more violent than two thousand and ten on the current trends more civilians are going to die this year sorry in in two thousand and twelve than in two thousand and eleven and more british soldiers and more u.s. soldiers the fact of the matter is the violence is actually going up at the moment

so you know the idea that somehow you know the problem is that we're not doing enough for that or that we shouldn't be drawing down it's kind of looking at the wrong way around actually i mean clearly there is you know afghanistan is a war torn countries had a terrible last twenty or thirty years but we've got to understand that occupation is part of the problem it's not part of the solution and they can't be any serious progress real progress while foreign troops are in the country and therefore i think any prerequisite for. a kind of democratic or any kind of move in that direction then with democracy or progress nasty involve a commitment to bring the troops that they could bring them out into the twenty fourteen i mean that's another that's another three years that will be another three hundred british dead on current trends leaving aside civilians we should be saying that we're going to withdraw now because it's the occupation itself that's causing a lot of the problems are a gentleman and lady we're going to go to a short break and after that to a break we'll continue our discussion on afghanistan state.

it. wealthy british. time to let go. of the. markets. scandal and. find out what's really happening to the global economy comes a report on our. list celebs. leg length.

and. welcome back to cross talk to people about we're talking about afghanistan and the withdrawal of nato troops. and.

ok for you before we go back to you in san francisco the obama administration the europeans had been hoping earlier in the year that the taliban in the central government in kabul would start negotiations you know local negotiations to start creating some kind of peaceful future. i had some security here but that is really kind of stalled is it because the taliban are convinced that the u.s. will leave in one form or another and that pakistan isn't really on board anymore i mean least after this latest crisis that we've had so really you know it's happening here is that any kind of road map that the u.s. control is is really illusory right now i mean it's really a political events will take shape and will probably be very violent but it will be events will be determined on the ground by local actors not by outsiders like washington. i think it's both actually i think the taliban feel like they're winning and they don't have to negotiate at this point. the wars on their side and

i think pakistan has a large. influence on that the fact that pakistan's pulled out of the bonn conference is detrimental to this conference to begin with because now. for sure we know that the taliban are not going to come to the table and we do need to look at a political solution this military solution is not working as i mentioned before i think inside the country we need leadership that's what's lacking we need a leader that has the will the guts and the influence to be able to make change but throughout afghanistan's history we have to look at saks the foreign forces have always played a role it's a buffer zone to keep other countries from fighting each other and that hasn't changed and that needs to change for this country to be at peace what's changed is there is a national identity many people don't believe that but i do i think there is a national identity and i think afghans do want to form a democracy what kind of democracy that equal rights for all citizens most of the

afghans i spoke to and the surveys that have been done they all want this and they do deserve it but democracy is a process and it takes time and institution building and that institution building has not occurred during the last ten years unfortunately you know it unfortunately the u.s. and its allies went in there thinking that they wouldn't have to nation build and they figured out that they don't do it very well and we find you do you. ask about the taliban i mean the taliban are just sitting pretty well i mean they're there waiting and confident as we just heard. and i agree with you the problem is that it's the same problem that pre-surgery iraq faced which is if the whatever you want to call the director contacts the insurgency in this case the taliban or the neo taliban if they know that there's an exit date they will go underground and as you say six pretty and as you were talking earlier all of these all of the roads to

dealing with the taliban go through pakistan and if pakistan is not on board then the taliban aren't going to be on board the taliban and if pakistan wants to cooperate then there's a degree to which they can force the taliban's hand maybe not completely maybe not on the afghan side of the border although probably on the afghan side of the border but they could definitely definitely change the security environment now that question of what to do about pakistan and whether or not their withdrawal from the conference will make it as some people have said utterly meaningless to discuss afghanistan's future is a different question and frankly europe and the u.s. might have to begin to more explicitly place pressure on the pakistanis to investigate a number of options that they potentially have not so much on the cutting assistance side because the west does have a legitimate interest in making sure for instance that pakistan's nuclear weapons are secure but there's a number of creative options that could be investigated among them allowing india

to begin to fill some of the security vacuum that's going to be left by the west allowing others to do you honestly think that will go for that do you think really think the pakistanis would agree no no the opposite no the opposite if the pakistanis refuse to cooperate the u.s. and the west need to have some carrots in addition to the need to have some sticks in addition to the carrots. development assistance to go ahead kristie that you know one of my favorite sayings just one of my favorite sayings in dealing with pakistan is that for the united states to save afghanistan it must destroy pakistan go ahead chris. yeah i mean you know maybe your suggestion for sort of creative engagement with pakistan would be to stop sending unmanned drones into their territory and killing loads of their soldiers and civilians that might be a start i mean it does feel as if the nato response to everything at the moment is you know far iraq it basically and you know what really did anyone sensible expect the pakistanis to do when you've killed twenty four twenty five of their soldiers with an unmanned drone and not even apologize for at least initially you know it's

going to create a diplomatic incident i mean it's quite extraordinary that we need to have this discussion the fact of the matter is and we all know this i don't know why people are saying the fact of the matter is there is no possibility of any kind of negotiated solution in the region unless pakistan's around the table and you know we shouldn't make if we if we want that to happen if we want to move in that direction then don't create acts of war against them i think it's important as well to side you know the we've got to kind of be a bit more nuanced and sophisticated than blaming pakistan for the rise of the taliban the fact of the matter is in two thousand and four two thousand and five the taliban were relatively toothless inside afghanistan it was only when people started to realize in afghanistan itself the level of destruction the level of cynicism and brutality that the american and nato troops were going to carry out in afghanistan the taliban managed to rebuild their rebuilt because there's massive

popular opposition surprise surprise to what is a story that i mean that's where i differ and if it were you know this is not a colonial i would not only there's very little most i mean it's wildly here is the fact that iraq is very carefully there as a country and. you both feel it a country. is going to ask what you are going chris. if chris if you admitted there was a justification for entering and as the as the colloquialism go. once you reach it it's your responsibility to buy it if you don't think that there was ever any justification only except we have a fundamental disagreement about the right or did nation states have to respond to attacks on but only to call me old friends when our country we're going to have a fundamental you have a fundamental disagreement with the majority of people in britain and the majority of people in america who think colonialism is something that should have been abandoned in the twentieth century if not the nineteenth century the i mean the

facts speak for themselves that clearly was no justification for the invasion of afghanistan because it's been an absolute catastrophe any more than there was a justification for the invasion of iraq i mean you know facts have to speak for themselves you actually do have to look at the reality and as i said before you know the statistics the facts the the un data shows that things have i mean things have got markedly worse for people in afghanistan and of course this is reflected in the fact that people in afghanistan are now in majority on arguably against the occupation now i'm a democrat i mean i don't know i don't know how else this thing can be argued out the afghan people need to decide their future for themselves ok for a question carry out here go ahead. the afghan children do that if our neighbors are pests the afghan people can decide their own future if they were left to themselves but they have never been left to themselves other than in one thousand nine hundred two and at that point pakistan was very much involved we need

to recognise pakistan's role in iraq its role here as pesky neighbors who have constantly meddled in afghanistan's affairs if the united states and britain leave this is that this is the i'm giving you the afghan perspective here the majority afghan perspective in areas that are more stable than others i it's not all the same i'm not saying that all afghans think the same but the idea is we don't want to even colonize in the first place but a proud moment yes let me chris we don't want to because i love you to speak please we do not want to be colonized by the united states or britain but more importantly we do not want parking spot on we do not want iran on our soil if we had to choose it would be the united states and britain because at least they have something more in of our us than to fight their own. perspective you can go there as a man or as an american man or female you're going to be welcomed but if you're pakistani and you say you're a pakistani you are going to you're not going to receive

a welcome that's the perspective of three hundred known here's a reminder of the three hundred ninety one british troops that have been killed in afghanistan if you know their families feel as if they've been particularly welcome to i mean. it's a complete fiction to say that the western forces a welcome they're clearly not welcome they can comes without being a tyrant you know i mean this is what that she's lying and saying we need to reverse the role of combat peacekeeping you need to have a peace peacekeeping force like we've done in other countries and that my. ok i have been required to go ahead and jump in the problem the problem with chris his position is that he forgets that there are bad guys who are not western and that there are bad guys in the region who will not leave afghanistan alone and it's not a choice between some current kind of bucolic utopia where the afghanis are left alone because the u.s. withdraws their horrific colonial forces and suddenly the afghans are left to their

own devices that's not how it's going to happen to us withdrawal right now especially persepolis us withdrawal of the kind that has been entertained of the kind that he's advocating would leave the region and open to interference by everybody from russia to china to pakistan certainly and it's just not the case now it gets back to the fundamental that if the fundamental disagreement we discuss or you know we're almost out of time here and i do is to go to chris here i mean i know it may sound kind of cruel and heartless but i mean one theory is that the west should just completely withdraw from the country in every sense ok and let the neighborhood take care of itself like i said earlier in the program it could be very violent for a short amount of time but it least the neighborhood would figure out its sense of order because why should americans troops and what european troops be determining the future of afghanistan when which really a regional issue that be resolved on the ground. but i absolutely absolutely buy into that view i mean i don't know why it is that people think in you know in

washington why all that somehow it's ok for the west to intervene that somehow we have humanitarian or democratic credentials i mean you know we have a history both those countries have a history over the last one hundred fifty years of absolutely brutal colonial occupation in the middle east in africa and in south asia and elsewhere and and that's of very often how with perceived and there's been a whole number of different different arguments used to justify the occupation afghanistan liberating women laughably bringing democracy similarly a job improving you know the reconstruction i was going to have to jump in here folks have run out of time very interesting topic and certainly not the last word on afghanistan many thanks my guest is san francisco washington and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here arche see you next time remember across time. it.

is if you want to.