has ruined the lives of many innocent families across the region. where the oldest city in russia is front locking you up more than five thousand. dollars done russia close up on r.g.p. . its hope will stay this is all to the supporters and opponents of the winning get answers also make their voices heard in rallies in the simpsons three days after russia's parliament that the opposition has claimed for a regularities the voting process leading to clashes with police song for the human cost and some here give me fifty percent of the ballots. meanwhile moscow has responded to washington some big criticism of paul foreign minister sergei lavrov

from things his counterpart in new clinton of using a platform at a meeting of the music school and the school point at home instead of taking washington's grievances straight to the crowd that. did tend to say the hero was germany and france and pushed for a change to treat scenes and spawn in fears that brussels could strip away of the solvency of member states. now the euro zone's on the cross-talk table next as the panel also whether the current sea is reaching the point they were tough. hello and welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle averting hero dooms day germany and france agree in principle at least that fiscal union in the eurozone is the only way to avert the sovereign debt crisis and they are planning

a new treaty to make it happen is this wishful thinking or a plan based on illusions. to cross-talk the year i'm joined by james mead way in london he is the senior economist at the new economics foundation also in london we have and peter for she is director of policy research in macroeconomics and in brussels we cross the jews than ourselves he is the president of the e s c steering committee for europe two thousand and twenty all right folks this is cross talk you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it and if i can go to you first the december nine summit is coming up and there is a ultimatum on the table the french. and the judge germans are saying to the entire twenty seven member members of the european union give up fiscal sovereignty or else is it going to happen and if it does what does it mean well it's going to

happen but the point is that it is not the answer to the crisis it's addressing the wrong problem it's really it's addressing a problem of fiscal deficits which are a consequence. of the financial crisis and it is that which they should be dressing they're not looking at the causes of the crisis which is the broken global banking system instead they're looking at the consequences and trying to fix this call deficit and that's how can solve the problem ok james i mean it's interesting with those because s. and p. is threatening to downgrade everybody for one thing and then you also you also have this countdown i don't know if it's popular immediate four days to go three days to go and then the you're always going to think what's going on here is this what is this summit in is going to happen on the ninth change anything and if it is going to change it will change for the better. but i think it's

a continuation the pattern we've seen for the last eighteen months which is a succession of summits the various your own leaders get together thrash out another deal or attempt to and then there's an increasingly short space of time before it becomes clear the thing isn't going to work now the stakes now are very much higher than they have been for the last eighteen months or so it is rapidly approaching crunch time for the entire eurozone. and of course the credit downgrade for the fifteen euro members that sons and pour of threatened this is only adding to the pressure here it strikes me that they will probably come up with something by friday they say they've got something already they'll probably be some sort of agreement how long it will actually hold from that point on which is a rather moot point ok. basis for thinking you know there's any real optimism there's not very much i also think they kind of chasing after the wrong solutions here the chasing after the fiscal deficit rather than as they should be chasing after the banks get any more pessimistic on this program and i do go to brussels

just what do you think i mean if the eurozone it seems to me that we've been writing this very long eulogy for this single currency. we're going to get just another chapter on friday. no i don't think cher. governments are under huge pressure at the moment and i don't i don't agree with this is. a collapse of a banking system worldwide it's all but it is in fact a lack of confidence of the markets in governments and what they should do is to stand up right to agree with each other to consolidate their efforts to create a real fiscal union and to go on ok but i wish i could stay with you in brussels here is this what the euro people of the here opinion you want to they want a more federalized a union they want

a fiscal union because i mean this is brussels or frankfurt going to determine every country's budget i mean this isn't what people signed up for was it yes indeed go back to the ninety nine to one maastricht treaty was signed there was already a strong for a political union that means an economic pillar of the e.u. and that time germany and france and the others refused to go pass. now that one will. grows. but. the couple of years they are stumbling forward and it becomes perfectly clear that there is no alternative. which look at some of the alternatives here is what i did and i like to quote the prime minister of luxembourg he was quoted in the saying is we all know what to do but we but we don't know how to get reelected once we've done it i mean that sounds like a gutless response from the political class of the european union in my opinion

what happened back in one thousand nine hundred ninety one is that we set up a monetary framework for the euro zone which is very wonderful for bankers and for the for the great powerful wealthy who operate across the borders in europe but actually it was never designed with the interest of the public in mind and it is that conflict between the monetary framework and the absence of the political framework holding that monetary system into account that has caused this crisis so what the eurozone leaders are doing are ignoring the s. and p. standard and poor's which is saying sorry but your solution austerity is destroying economic activity is weakening economic activity lowering incomes lowering tax revenues making things worse. and if the eurozone leaders don't want to hear that

well fight and good but they will drive europe deeper and deeper into the mire of economic failure until they fix the private banking system james can the private banking system be fixed because we heard they'd be having the private having private investors take a haircut when it came to greece and i was president now everyone is running away from that so again you know it's going to be the taxpayer if there's going to be bailouts it's hard spears they're going to have to pay for this and actually the banking system is making a mint off of this and winning and losing at the same time. that really is a win win to be a banker at the moment it's quite incredible actually that having sort of tiptoed around the idea of maybe him to kind of voluntary haircut for greece just a few months ago it was straight back to absolutely no way will probably the bondholders take a hit on this and this is of course the worst possible solution to the crisis exactly for the reasons and says that once you impose austerity real economic activity collapses you're left with the bank is still sitting pretty out of all of

it and everybody else carrying the current i mean that's the that's the kind of deal that we start to look at the course is entirely the opposite of what needs to happen the bondholders should take it the private banking system does need to take it in all this that's those are the people in the end largely responsible for the mess that we've got ourselves into they're the ones who really want to start carrying some of the burden of it just if i can go to you i mean looking at this crisis unfold over the last two years now it really seems more to me a political crisis the lack of political will by the political leadership in the leadership in europe who is basically in bed with banks would you agree with that statement. yes it is a political crisis they are fully fully right and a political crisis can only be sorted out by politicians to come together and to fix a system the euro itself is not doing badly at all when you compare it to the door . to the end. where you look at the economy it is the

basics are all right what lex after all is is certainty confidence trust in the markets so the markets have to be respondents in the way they they expect governments to respond and that brings me back again to the fact that we have to build up the economic pillar of the e.u. and there's far as the banks are concerned i fully agree with you that the mancs had to move to march a free field for them. and that's the reason that the european commission is now proposing a number of legislative legislative arrangements ok now i'd like to go to james i mean james the euro crowds are talking about making these adjustments a new treaty has been two point zero but we're running out of time and we're running out of time very very quickly for this currency here i mean there's

a lot of bad debt payments are right around the corner and there he blew me at the same time when you have so much austerity it's not creating any growth i mean this is this is the worst of all possible worlds. oh yeah it's course in a vice no uncertain terms that on one side you know the demand for debt repayments the interest payments to be made on the other hand the desperate rush to austerity actually trampling out real economic activity and therefore making those those debt repayments essentially on me to bill going into the future certainly in the case of greece a default is essentially never it's but what still hangs over the euro zone is the pos prospects of a really major default by a very major economy like italy that's something that there's still a possibility now the sad thing about all this is that he's not just getting to the stage of thinking this is a possibility this may get become an inevitability the situation is so serious that the collapse and the stagnation across europe and with all respect to our friend in brussels the fundamentals in europe are not good productivity growth everywhere

including germany is being weak for years now you're looking at mass unemployment particularly muncy young right the way across the continent you're looking at a deeply flawed. situation with the institutions that he used level the conflict between monetary policy and fiscal policy which is now desperately trying to be resolved the massive imbalances of surpluses in the northern european countries matched by deficits in the south this is a complete mess and it's a mess that we're well i don't hold out much hope any of the european leaders are sort of shower now gathering on friday are really going to be able to resolve this i think what actually has to happen is something far more fundamental something really root and branch they will transform the european economy rather than just sort of tinker around to the top like we've seen for the last eighteen months or so ok we'll see who's going to survive the world trade first we're going to go to a short break and after that your break we'll continue our discussion on the fate of beers on state of r g.

i. think people who believed in trade for many years to this albeit system has faded away in less than twenty four hours a spell of this kind of push up. we acted in a true russian style we didn't know exactly what the future would bring that to think about later three leaders come together and sign an agreement dissolving the u.s.s.r. for good or to get rid of the so-called big brother that was always controlling them was the dream of many republics are. but in the eyes of the people they put it like this i will liberate you from the kremlin oppression no one wants to take the blame but we would not be able to persuade gorbachev and besides he's bored could not be relied upon. he could tell you anything and do something completely

different function for you myself for being too liberal and in the sand boris yeltsin or i should have that was my mistake. this is the decisive in strict boris yeltsin that sets in the kremlin instead of cool itself at the time. then i don't think we have left elevator forest soaries. two decades have passed but the discussion still rages was this applause or a fait accompli. the close of team has been on the black sea coast for future developments depends on the good way. our team goes area first place too many find champions the most ambitious. has

ruined the lives of many innocent families across the region. where the oldest city in russia is clocking in more than five thousand years. to dagestan russia close up on our t.v. . and. welcome back to cross talk i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing what's next for the euro. and.

ok and i'd like to go back to you in london before we start talking more about if the euro can survive how democratic is all this process because i find it very curious is that merkel and sarkozy are giving an ultimatum to you all members of the european union saying by friday you have to agree to this and it has to be unanimous and then sometime in the spring we'll talk about the proposals that seems like it's getting everything backwards and i mean are the people of the european union in the euro is that eurozone have any voice in what's going to be done with this common currency it is a common currency after all. it's not only undemocratic and that is worrying and they and the people of europe have never really been involved in for example the drafting of the maastricht treaty which set up this disastrous policy framework but it's worse than that because the people of europe will be punished through austerity for a finite breakdown which is happening in the private sector and for which those

people are not responsible so it's a sort of double jeopardy i think i'm not sure that's the right phrase but it means they are both do not have a voice but they are also victims of a crisis that is not of their making and that is the making of social and political breakdown which is indeed for me extremely worrying she said i'm going to you in brussels i mean how do you feel about that i mean it is interesting i think you said earlier in the program when when times are good when there's prosperity people are not so concerned about it when things turn down people want to have more say in their fate in this is not the case as they try to save the restructure or save the euro altogether yeah well our most sided people in london are very gloomy. i'm not all all that pessimistic at all and it is a false picture to say. people have not had to say we are we are living in countries also in the u.k. over a representative democracy decisions are being taken by governments that are very

good every four years of the people good very differently ok let's. take greece. good boy and please where you look at the united states for is is a mess down to california why oh where you compare it to texas and new york city well it's an enormous difference like in europe between greece and think that the problem only here is that they have one state with one currency and woman economic policy and we have looked we have well let me just insist if i can ask you if i could interrupt here and ask you a question i mean prime minister cameron won't have. refused to hold a referendum on any changes to the. lisbon treaty or any other treaty that has to do with the european union because he knows it will fail so i mean let democracy take its course yeah is it

a referendum is not democracy it is. the marker that is the demand that they're going to form then what is it what is it there are many no there are many systems there are many systems and the river and them is. one part of one side of it and i wish i wish mr cameron a lot of luck let him read the financial times this boarding. they give him a good advice ok james if i can go to you are we going to go through the whole process again with the european union well just keep asking there are different question until they get you get the right answer or you keep going through this one who passed or another after another and then all of it all this time it's like the titanic that is going to hit that iceberg and think. that has been the practice in the past. the other con the question of democracy it is fairly clear at the moment that the e.u. leaders are particularly interested in democracy i mean no one voted to mario monti no one voted. greece nor voted for marriott draggy is the new president of the

european central bank which is so quietly behind all this there is a quite a serious threat to democracy right the way across the continent at the moment and to the extent you know a blackmail is being concocted by cozy and merkel being presented to a vote on friday then i think it's another potential blow for democracy i mean bear in mind he has never been especially democratic institution it's not something that has been formed out of the will of the peoples of europe especially if something's been formed over their heads rather and i think that's become increasingly obvious over the last few years the financial crisis the crisis of the european economies is only accelerated ok and if i can go back you know one of the issues going to be talking about it in this summit is more fiscal union and and maybe i mean i can be swayed one way or another on that one because if you have monetary union least you should have fiscal ok at the start of the program you disagree with the solution of that but i mean is anyone in the mood in the european union right now to give up

even more sovereignty because this is the worst possible time to ask them even if you were to ask them to vote on it it would all fail no one will say give up more particularly countries that are being taxpayers are being asked to be allowed the weaker wreckless countries in the union. the point about a union i am in favor of a huge union and i think that would be a good thing to have a fiscal political union with with politicians accountable but what's really been proposed here is a form of economic ideology it's not just a fiscal union it's imposing fiscal limits it's saying no matter what the circumstances no matter how deep the economic depression no matter how successful the economic boom the fiscal deficit must be fixed within a rigid framework a course it and nothing must move and so what that does is to design the

economy in a very rigid way. and deny the sort of dynamic growth and development of an economy which can go up but couldn't go down and right now it's going down and it's the refusal to deal with the economy in the real world. by these politicians who are dictating fiscal limits on friday that is what is most terrifying or triggering jews have largely. based on ideology let's go back to brussels or one of the things that are being proposed is that something is called a debt break ok where you can actually start punishing countries that are not his keep don't keep their house in fiscal order it would be adjudicated by the european court of justice one who voted for them. well it is a part it is a part of the institutional framework but coming back on the word rigidity that uses an i say it the whole system can only survive when there is more flexibility

flexibility in the labor market flexibility unique india economy and you see that there's economies that are that have adjusted themselves to more flexibility are doing far better than the others and then you look at the program of mr monti makes very who is very popular in italy according to choir is he is the older he's now working on a flexible isaac zation of the of the italian government spots and this will be accelerated by the james army's outlets james chopin go ahead go ahead james. what is worst possible solution is flexibility that goes into this mess at least in part it's the it's the pressure on real wages and real incomes that flexibility in genders that means a demand has been weak it's been compensated for in many countries by excessive borrowing and that's precisely when the things that led to the crisis that we're now in is a crisis of demand. declining reeling comes in and unless something is done to

overcome the crisis of demand which means actually fiscal expansion in reflation in the first instance then we're going to carry on looking at stagnation across europe all this time the supply side technically look increasing flexible labor markets all us are still is an army that best going to make much difference or worse is simply going to contribute to a race to the bottom that is not the thing that europe needs them over or what we actually need in the first instance is a program to expand demand that means increased government spending that means hoya wages and that means taking on also the banks behind all of this ok and you want to . i want to. i want to to argue again that the real problem is that we have a broken banking system global not even european global and that's because the banks lend crazy money to greece to households to corporations or whatever and the euro zone flexible framework made that possible now

when the e.u. leaders depress incomes when they increase unemployment they make it more difficult for people individuals households and firms to repay dense debts debts to those private banks that have effectively bust and also to pay taxes to governments that need revenues to deal with their deficits so what standard and poor was saying last night. is that the remedy that's being applied by the e.u. leaders on friday is going to have the very opposite effect of fixing the banks it's going to destroy the banking system that's what's terrifying in the markets ok and quite rightly so ok just if i go back if i go back to you in brussels and i think i kind of echoing a statement that james made a million and a few fragments with and just said i mean it least in the in the short and medium

term it's great to be a banker in the european union and the eurozone because i mean they're going to get paid ok because i think there's a great mystery we're not talking about sovereign debts we're talking about sovereign debt to banks they get paid first and then everybody else is left behind yet here and this is guaranteed the doing now is to bring the house in order parallel to. the economic pillar new banking legislation is prepared now in order to bring them back to to dance for the mint. and when you look at britain for instance britain is asking for far more freedom of the banking world than europe does and. when we follow the british then we we are facing indeed. a free for all there's no longer acceptable so i am very sad moment here is the reason with me are

that it is actually dreams done brittany ok james i'm going to give you the last word on this program what's going to come out of the summit on wednesday i'm sorry on friday anything. anything another botched deal another attempt to pretend everything's ok the stakes are much higher than previously so it may hold for longer than previously but fundamentally are i don't see any solution arising out of fraud ignore over the long term ok we still have forty seconds and you want to jump in there. yes i despair and i wish that the politicians would listen to standard and poor's and understand just how grave this financial crisis is and start dealing with the real cause of the problem the private banking system all right thank you all very much very interesting discussion we'll see what happens on friday many thanks to my guest today in london and brussels and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember cross talk rules.