but coming up next to grover norquist on why reforming the drug war makes sense financially. and thank you for being with us seven thirty here in moscow and karen terrill to with a look here headlines tens of thousands of people take to the streets in syria's third largest city hall is demanding international protection a city which has seen some of the fiercest battles between state and opposition was the first destination for the arab league's monitoring team that began its work in syria this week this comes amid reports of government tanks withdrawing from the area. fair and clear prime minister putin promises transparency in the upcoming presidential election after a series of mass protests against alleged for all during the parliamentary vote his

words come amid reshuffles at the top with the leading kremlin strategic taking up a new government post as deputy prime minister of lizzie's love sort of will be responsible for the country's economic modernization and its innovation the hauled in school to go to. north korea is finally laying its leader to rest as funeral service start paying off and. hundreds of thousands are expected to pay their final respects and during the two day memorial. now let's cross over to our washington studio for part two of the out on the show don't go away. we are buying fox news a lot on this show now because we're left in there right but because they say things that are absolutely crazy and they spread misinformation so take a listen to our takedown of fox news for saying that whistleblowers are bad for business now as occupy wall street protests continue we have heard one major

complaint from the protesters time and time again the no major figure involved in the two thousand and eight financial collapse has faced any serious criminal charges there not enough has changed in the way the banks operate and consumer groups say that a lot of people in the financial sector didn't report the shady business practices taking place because they feared for their jobs but last year president obama signed into law the doj frank wall street reform and consumer protection act one of the provisions signed into that law was a major revamp of whistleblower rights now as ironic as i know it might seem that the obama administration would be agreeing to protect whistleblowers rights let's just keep going for the sake of the story whistleblowers are now guaranteed legal protection and paid cash rewards for tips made directly to the f.c.c. regarding illegal activity so as you can imagine the big banks now they're not really fans but it turns out that they found a few allies in their fight against these reforms g.o.p. lawmakers and fox news take for example new york republican congressman michael grimm he introduced a bill that would repeal the whistleblower protection part of doc frank and his

plan would reduce rewards for rewarding on fraud but also force employees to report any possible crimes to their supervisors first before notifying the f.c.c. think we all know what happens when your reports of them your supervisors ignore it they tell you to ignore it or the worst case scenario they punish you for reporting it so consumer groups say this is just an attempt to silence whistle blowers and congressman grimm is three other g.o.p. lawmakers helping push the repeal of this bill and a nice little tidbit as think progress noted today grimm is a favorite of big banks when it comes to campaign cash according to the sunlight foundation green race two hundred twenty two thousand and three hundred fifty dollars in the for. nanteuil sector which amounted to twenty four percent of the total money that he raised for his campaign and the bank friendly g.o.p. lawmakers have turned to yet another trusted friend to help them attack whistleblowers now the fox news but you would expect there would be a rise in whistle blowing involving insider trading and that is the case you know in the past it started trading whistleblower cases were very few and far between

think about it you're a traitor out of this going to read out all your new friends and it's a difficult difficult lot to to basically they also want to. yes anybody who dares to report on a coworker committing fraud on wall street is a rat that's a schoolyard frat house mentality hard work people was a lawyer is they're heroes they're not rats and that characterization is frankly offense it further along during our interview fox's charlie gasparino also made this claim as to why the new whistleblower protection is that. if you create all these incentives to sue well you know i mean it seems like we're you know we're increasing litigation that against businesses that you know let's face it they get hammered all these banks. that's right the banks are just getting hammered by all these new regulations and it's the whistleblowers that are to blame because giving employees the protections to report the illegal activities of their employers is apparently bad for business now unfortunately for the american people who were

screwed by the banks and their lack of transparency the banks are doing just fine now all the american public is not last month report on a think progress report that looked at bank profits for the second quarter j.p. morgan chase citi group wells fargo goldman sachs and morgan stanley all saw huge profit increases so that argument that the banks are getting hammered is false the banks are not getting hammered they're making record breaking profits and even more disturbing of the amount of profits being raked in by wall street as they continue to fight tooth and nail against even the most basic of reforms just imagine just imagine if the whistleblower protections been in place leading up to the two thousand and eight collapse how many billions of tax dollars might have been saved how many shady mortgage loans might have been prevented unfortunately we're never going to know but this attempt to roll back the whistleblowing provision of banking reform is just proof yet again of how truly scared the banks and the g.o.p. are of transparency most people would agree at this point that the drug war in america is a failure but we have to show for it other than the largest known incarceration

system in the world and even conservatives are now joining in opposition to it including grover norquist talk about an unlikely match the c.p. the a.c.l.u. and conservatives like grover norquist have teamed up on a cause it's one that's long overdue prison reform let me just remind you that america has the highest known incarceration rate in the world the two point three million people are sitting in u.s. prisons and that's nearly one in every one hundred adults and many of these people are there for nonviolent crimes but what would make the tough on crime conservatives want to actually join with the liberals on this one well what else money as states all across the country face budget crises it's starting to make sense that our prison system. is somewhere we could definitely afford to cut without making the streets of america and he more dangerous so today the end he released a new report on the issue called misplaced priorities under educate over incarcerate

so could this high profile team be the perfect combination to finally bring about some change earlier i caught up with grover norquist the president of americans for tax reform who's also a member of the board of directors the n.r.a. and is on the advisory council of go proud and i first asked him if he thought that this was the perfect time to have this long overdue discussion if the fiscal crises of states are something that they're taking advantage of to finally have a logical debate. a lot of conservatives in state legislators who might have just deferred to whatever the police or the prison guards or the prosecutors wanted are now being forced to look at total budgets and saying how do we save money and one of the way to save money is not building new prisons are there ways of keeping crime down without putting as many people in prison as we do today but you know i also it's so obvious and this is something that you pointed out to that if you think about conservative principles principles like keeping the government spall fiscal responsibility then the entire attitude of just lock them up no matter how

much it costs just to make sure that we can keep everybody safe and you know throw everyone in prison that we want those things just don't add up and how do we get to this point where it's tough on crime no matter what well a lot of people just want to make a headline or get on television by announcing they're going to have a big. long sentence for some particular egregious crime and then for the next forty years we live with that i mean a guy gets to a speech and says we must fight so we'll have a very long prison sentence well a long prison sentence might be justified but also might be very expensive and maybe it's not the best way to deal with people with drug problems and well that's what we're seeing so much of these days are people that are going in. non-violent crimes often for drug crimes and those are the ones that you hear about on t.v. that's not what people go on and they boast about is that i perhaps caught some single mother that had a dime bag of weed on her and put her in jail for ten years people do want to know

that violent criminals are locked up for a good length of time they're not particularly interested in locking up in prison at twenty thousand dollars a year or some places in california fifty thousand dollars a year i mean it's not free to put somebody in person there are some benefits to putting criminals in prison and there are big benefits to putting violent criminals in prison but you really have to do a cost benefit analysis and there new technology ankle bracelets home arrest all sorts of ways you can keep track of people outside of building a great big prison and putting them in a do you believe in rehabilitation for these people or do you believe in treatment programs that i think we should take a look at what works we have fifty different states they should take fifty different approaches we've got thousands of counties all the county should have different approaches and we should keep very good statistics to find out what makes it less likely somebody comes back and what they call the system come back to prison come back to jail what is

a drug treatment how often does that work what's the percentage likelihood that it works how long does somebody need to be in prison if somebody is a violent felon are they still violent at sixty five you know is their advantage to keep somebody in prison after they're seventy if if you're worried about them hurting other people maybe not some crimes there may be things restitution following this things other than building a physical prison which costs a lot of money and staffing it with prison guards which cost a lot of money it costs a lot of money but the money keeps being thrown at these prisons right thrown at these states to pay all these prison guards if you think at the moment there's just there's no incentive to even look into other programs like rehabilitation like the straight man programs because well why would you. do that if you can just keep three people in jail and that's where all the money interestingly the state this kind of lead on these reforms is texas and that's and also right on crime which is a group i work with of conservative activists who are saying how can we reduce

crime keep it low and get it low or while not breaking the bank how can we do it most cost effectively texas is the state that's moved out there done some very serious analysis there putting fewer people into the system fewer people are going to prison and more into drug rehabilitation for nonviolent first time offenders and they're finding lower recidivism rates and better results at lower costs other states are now looking at texas you know for something that works a lot of people go that's from on i'm not sure i trust their judgment they're not part of ontario is perhaps the state that executes the most people i was naked and they're not weak they're not doing this for some silly academics theory they're looking at what works and that's why both conservative spokesman on this issue have more credibility than you i've they think that's an interesting statement that you made is that conservatives have more credibility than democrats because democrats are looked at a soft on crime but i don't really buy that because in today's society you know in

the political arena that we have it's no longer an option for anybody to be soft on crime even for democrats well people have long memories of nine hundred eighty eight mike dukakis was a likely was the democratic nominee for president and as governor he let convicted murderers who were sentenced to life without parole out of prison on weekends ok takes a long time to live that one down for the democratic party and it cost him a good chunk of a presidential race so people remember that sort of thing and you're right democrats overreacting to their week on crime past and reputation often go over the reason why we had one hundred to one rates of putting people in. prison on crack cocaine versus powder cocaine was the liberal in the black caucus were out there the loudest the most just in the eighty's and passed that law. thinking they were protecting their communities and it's been.

a lot of people have been in fact a lot of time and some restraint has been brought there it's been brought down from one hundred one ratio to eighteen to one now obviously like i said this is a very interesting pair here and to have people like yourself join together with and join together with a.c.l.u. and while you may agree that prison our prison system needs reform in this country you don't necessarily agree on what to do with that money right he is saying that it should go towards education do you not think that i mean do you not think that it really shows something about the priorities of this country when we are making cuts to education. and not to prisons well. we're spending too much on prisons and i agree once we save money on prisons look consistent with keeping bad guys in jail and keeping costs down and keeping crime low if we can spend muscle and less money on prisons i would like that money to stay with

taxpayers people like spend it on other stuff we're going to spend it on education specifically which i think that a lot of americans would probably agree with i guess there's a difference between spending money on education handing it to the teachers unions and we spent the last fifty years handing more money to the teachers unions and education has declined in america as we spent more dollars per child than anywhere else on the planet more than we did five years ago ten years ago twenty years ago thirty years ago we've done nothing but spend more money and get lousy results we haven't done any better on our spending on education than we have on prisons we're beginning to have people ask can we get rid of teacher tenure so we can fire the bad incompetent teachers as florida just did as idaho just did and the answer is yes we're getting reforms because. governments run out of money governments only reform when they run out of money alcoholics only quit when they hit bottom so both the reform in education and the reform of the criminal justice system are both

flowing from we can no longer afford to keep doing the same thing and people are pleasantly surprised in criminal justice how much money they can save while actually improving crime fighting microphone i thank you very much for joining us today and i think you're right i think it is though the right time to talk about this there is a need for reform here and whenever money is involved and obviously everybody gets interested so we'll see if such a strong combination you know with big players like yourself and then a c.p.a. and the a.c.l.u. can finally bring about some that change thanks so much thank you. i would say in our last break but there's a lot more to come up to talk to an atheist about the idea of a christian theocracy right here in the u.s. don't miss it.

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presidential campaigning has been and full force this year and we hear a lot from the republican candidates about their conservative christian values but if they had it their way would they turn america which is supposed to uphold the freedom of religion into a christian theocracy here's an atheist take. and you probably had no idea this happened because the event wasn't televised press coverage was scarce but this week at six of the g.o.p. presidential candidates participated in a so-called thanksgiving family forum in iowa at this event was sponsored by the family leader and national organization for marriage to. christian organizations and the focus here was you guessed it social policy and values now in what some describe as a soul baring event the candidates told personal stories of difficult moments in their lives their regrets and their dedication to god that sounds nice sounds very

personal but then when you really look at some of their responses the picture becomes a little more scary the candidates advocated for judeo christian values pervading our laws for the federal government to take power out of the hands of the state and legislating moral issues think gay marriage and abortion and for congress to take away the judiciary's power to review moral laws so all in all makes you wonder as william saletan it's late did if these candidates who so often decry the influence of islam or the fake creeping shari'a law if they actually would mind a theocracy as long as it was christian joining me to discuss this is david silverman president of american atheists david thanks for coming back on the show now i just want to start with the way that this event went down it wasn't televised it was streamed online at the end of the day only seventeen thousand people actually watched it do you feel like this is a little more important the more people should see what these candidates are actually saying in this regard. well i think the problem that we're seeing when we're looking at the republican party is what the american atheists have been

saying for a long time the republican party is now the party of a christian theocracy and it is not. it's not going overboard to say such a thing the candidates in the republican party right now are advocating theocracy and that's a very scary thing and what they're doing they don't have answers for the real problems that we have in this country they don't have the problem the answers for the war or the economy or the jobs or the crumbling infrastructure so they are inventing a problem and they were signing it to religious minorities and then they're demonizing those religious minorities so that they can coalesce their base around support around a fake problem and they're cloaking the whole thing in patriotism and it's very scary to watch it's very predictable we've been seeing this happen and we've been raising the red flag and i'm very happy that the press is picking up on this and yeah it's very scary that this wasn't televised but i've been looking at the the

internet coverage on this for the past day and it's really picking up i'm glad that people are starting to see the christian right the christian right's influence on the republican party as real and i would just like to say that i used to be a republican i am all about small government i'm all about gun rights i support the troops i support a strong military but i can not vote for a republican because they are theocrats and they think i'm immoral just because i think atheists should have a fair seat at the table and that's wrong and that's un-american on their part and it's very very scary. from our from our point of view i well let me make one statement in regard to what you said there were there was one candidate actually stood out at this forum in iowa this week and sounded like same one that i minded everybody about personal liberty and that was our belief that. people and that was ron paul and aside from him everyone else there is out of the same way and you know

people might think they were just being mean here and they let me play a clip from something that rick santorum said that just might go along with the ocracy argument that you're making let's take a listen unlike his law firm where the higher wall in the civil war the same in our case we have civil laws but our civil laws have to comport with the higher level our civil laws have to and that's why the issue of abortion as long as abortion is legal at least according the supreme court legal in this country we will never have rest because that law does not comport with god's law which. so he wants god's law to rule and i was wondering you know as an atheist how do you fight these types of statements and remind people that because you're an atheist doesn't mean that you're necessarily immoral because it sounds like from the republican perspective that unless you are someone of faith then you have no morals right and mr santorum forgot to say that it was his interpretation of god's law that really counts it's

not the other people's interpretation of god's law that really counts it's not about the economy and it's not about the jobs of the war it's about abortion or gay marriage and it's about islam and they're going to come and take over this country and make it their country and it's about the secularist atheists or we're going to take over this country and make it their country i'm sorry it's not an extremist point of view to say this it sounds a lot like early hitler it does and it's very very scary when people will follow this kind of rhetoric when people will not see that these people the senate wrister santorum and bachmann and romney and gingrich are using this kind of mentality using their religious beliefs and using this pumped up fake attack on christianity to cloak themselves and protect themselves from their complete inability to answer the country's real problems of the economy of the jobs of the infrastructure of the terrible education system that we have this is our problem as citizens we must not

elect the people who can actually solve problems who actually distract well actually you know show something shiny over here so that we don't look at the real problems and i'm calling out all christians out there don't just vote for somebody because they're bigoted in your favor bigotry in favor of for of christianity isn't good and it's not any better than any other kind of bigotry america is a melting pot where a broad country and. no matter how religious you are in and no matter how christian you are in a christian theocracy you'll never be christian enough there's always going to be somebody there with another version of christianity that's more christian than you and you're going to lose the freedom to make the choice because you didn't just stand the separation of church and state when you had the chance that's something that we hear a lie is you know certain candidates having to prove that they're more anti-abortion

than the other can of then they're always having a what happened to either and i want to play one last clip here to escape the perry clip when i was careful santorum that i think brings up a good point but take a listen. that is not our founders' vision that is as newt's a just as you know license liberty says it's a corruption of liberty it's not understanding that liberty our founders understood liberty is in the not what you you want to do but what you ought to do. so it's kind of interesting i wonder how republicans would apply that to you know certain tax policies or when you start looking at the economy and it's not just about the free market and what you want to do but it's what you ought to do which is maybe help those that are needed in this country and when you look in christianity there's no notion of freedom of religion in christianity there's no notion of democracy or separation of powers or checks and balances in christianity there's not even a vote in christianity anywhere there's no liberty in christianity that's why when

they come out with these statements like america was founded in a christian values i challenge them ok names of christian values that you're talking about and show me where they're in american law show me where your assertion that this is a judeo christian nation actually manifests itself in our law and by the way judeo christian is a is is a fake word anyways but let's find out what they mean and when you take it to the next level exactly what name one judeo christian value that's part of american law they can't because it's not true they know it they're lying they're trying to distract your attention from the fact that they have no solutions to this country's real problems and this country's real problems have no have nothing to do with abortion or gay marriage they're all about the economy the jobs

our infrastructure our and quite frankly this horrible division that we have this horrible polarization that we have in our society that i have i have a lot of foresight as are out of time but i have to have it i want to thank you for joining us now and you know there's a lot to be said about morality versus telling people they have to have values that align with a certain religion and i think market now the candidates are saying this thanks so much thank you. but it's a friday night thanks for tuning in and make sure you come back tomorrow or you continue to look over some of the best stories and interviews and. two thousand and eleven so tomorrow will specifically get into the war on terror and how it's changed in america that we live in and then a time to offer gets written a fan of a lot of show on facebook how to follow us on twitter and if there's anything they never miss we will catch all the you tube dot com slash they want to show us the interviews as well as the show and its entirety the news coming up next.

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