a nail in the coffin for us freedom and potentially made one tom obey a permanent fixture. this year it's one of the movement and. that's why the occupy wall street protesters are back in zuccotti park battling the weather and the establishment of the so-called the ground zero of the protests going to have a live report from the new york. city evening it's wednesday january eleventh five pm here in washington d.c. i'm lucy catherine of and you're watching our t.v. . now more than ten years ago american warplanes began to pummel taliban positions across afghanistan and what became the first stage of now america's longest war billions of dollars and countless afghan and u.s. lives later the war drags on and despite a target and date for the drawdown of the american troops victory whatever that means in that country is nowhere in sight now for

a look at what went wrong i want to bring in someone who's seen it on the ground firsthand the rolling stone reporter whose profile of general stanley mcchrystal ended his career and has now expanded his ex has now expanded his experiences with american troops his thoughts on the counterinsurgency strategy known as coined the rise and fall of general mcchrystal and of course the media establishment into a new book i want to bring into the conversation michael hastings with rolling stone and the author of the new book the operators the wild and terrifying inside story of america's war in afghanistan michael thank you so much for being here thanks for having me thanks before we get into the media reaction to the now infamous piece i really do sort of want to talk about the conclusions that you've drawn about the conflict in afghanistan and more specifically the counterinsurgency strategy because that really was sort of overshadowed by the controversial remarks made by mcchrystal right let's talk about that should we have been there from the

start i think there's a pretty strong case you made that after september eleventh the united states had to respond in some kind of way militarily against the taliban because they were harboring osama bin laden i think what happened was we went totally off course after that our whole premised on going to afghanistan this idea we were going to avoid avoid a quagmire literally defense secretary don rumsfeld said it's not a quagmire and anyone who said at the time we're going to get into a quagmire this in two thousand one was mocked in the right as a fool and an idiot and and and you know a nut and of course at a time when we had you know american flags on every single network and god forbid you criticize any sort of policy that the states takes because it's the war on terror exactly and for sure. now ten years later you we found ourselves in a quagmire more disturbingly in two thousand and nine when president obama faced the decision about whether or not to escalate in afghanistan they even said they knew we're going to a quagmire but we're going to go into it anyway but what was i mean could you pinpoint a specific mistake made at least by this administration and was that was the

escalation itself wrong should he have pulled out completely what i think he should in an ideal world i would have loved to see them pull out completely yes i think the mistake that the white house made was underestimating the desire and will of the pentagon to want to escalate the war in afghanistan and the white house believed when they took over that oh if we give if we give the pentagon no there twenty one thousand troops which obama did right away then you know check afghanistan or done let's move on to health care and these other issues what happened was the military came back and said no it's not enough those twenty thousand are enough we want a hundred thousand and so within the first year of obama's presidency he has tripled the scope and size of the conflict in afghanistan that's a major ask less escalation that's more then the escalation in iraq which the surge is only another twenty thousand thirty thousand more troops so you went from one hundred two hundred thirty thousand troops where in afghanistan you went from thirty thousand to close to a hundred thousand plus about fifty thousand more nato soldiers so the mistake was underestimating the pentagon and what about the so-called strategy and this is must

be the gentler face of american war fare total nonsense i mean the idea is a famous phrase winning hearts and minds but essentially what it is it's the way for the american military to make the natives behave in a way they want them to behave by using violence and and bribery and other forms of coercion this idea that counterinsurgency is some sort of friendly gentle face of war is not even supported by the facts more afghan civilians were killed under general mcchrystal counterinsurgency plan than under the previous general who was due also doing counterinsurgency as well but just not not on the on the grand scale and then in iraq also when david petraeus took over there. what you saw in the surge was a lot of lot of violence and what i mean and also gave birth to our so-called man in kandahar right you know you have afghans who we are now trusting with taking over in the country essentially torturing and committing the same kinds of sense that we're supposedly protecting directly doing it and so one of the scenes i have in the book which now the book we're talking pretty heavy policy so for what i want

to write a book was about kind of these wild and crazy guys boozing it up running around europe running around the world you know figuring out the best ways to kill people and run the war and that's what this book's really about like after a decade of war what sorts of people rise to the top and how did we get there but yes there are man in kandahar a guy named abdul razak is a known war an old war criminal known human rights abuse or known drug smuggler i met him hung out with he's a charming guy yeah you don't you don't you don't get to become a thirty three year old you know local commander without local warlord without without some charisma he's the he's the guy we've embraced not only we've embraced him gentle to trace has met with him one on one essentially and given him and rolled out the red carpet form and this is the same guy that group or needle and it just came out a couple months ago who is was literally torturing people himself with cigarettes. and this is the guy we're giving millions of dollars to giving him special forces assets giving him jeeps and you know so you could buy a scene the book where he shows me his diamond encrusted watch and i showed him you

know my watch as well so you know this idea that the military tries to stop us and folks in washington try to sell this counterinsurgency as this warm and friendly thing. as i said was nonsense and it's trying to put distance between what we're doing and what our allies on the ground are doing and what i what i sort of say in the book and what i do say is that there's no distance there were complicit and any human rights abuse that goes on by people we're funding and training were complicit in that and we can tell ourselves we're not but we did lying to ourselves and those are strong words but you know of course it's very difficult for american citizens who have plenty to worry about and in terms of the. issues to really get a grasp on what's going on in a country like afghanistan i'm sure if you could even put the place on the map perhaps not now but was. the point that i want to raise i mean that's why we have journalists and so you're supposedly supposed to have these journalists that tell us the situation like it is and yet when you came out with your article granted it

was more of a reaction i guess to the uncouth terminology used by mcchrystal and his aides there was a firestorm and in the media establishment why did you profit so many from the father's will it's interesting i first the response i was somewhat surprised by the response i didn't think democrats would ever get fired i thought it was untouchable but when when some of my colleagues started coming out in kind of attacking the story my first response was oh i guess the i can't even the bit of the death so you know they don't really understand maybe they didn't understand what i was doing or but as it went on the response and there's sort of response from the media kind of continued and i should say it's a pretty small slice the media but influential what a pretty it's vocal one vocal you had the pentagon press corps. and the national some national security reporters who were sort of the ones who were the most sort of vocal about it and look as a journalist i look i criticize you all the time so i'm not too shocked when i get

there if there's an implication then just someone saying that michael hastings you did a bad boy you should know things i mean right we're talking about a war that's cost billions that that's resulted and thousands of lives lost most of these pentagon reporters have a dorst and been kind of complicit in waging in this is this was my insight if you can call it that. it's called the pentagon press corps right and so one would assume they have a watchdog function as in to look over the pentagon but in fact what has become is that the pentagon press corps is just an extension of the pentagon itself and so you don't have critical coverage which you have coverage is just essentially it's not it's not no. because sometimes they do break stories but it but it's not the kind of stories that i don't think are two that are very helpful to what deity information people need to know to make informed decision what's the what's the implications for us as people i think the implication is that you need to i mean i it's a tough question how do you get around it i think my my goal would be to sort of

support journalists who are doing the hard work matt matt akins at the atlantic there's a number charlie savage is the new york times guy glenn greenwald i'm salon who are really and there's a number of other journalists who are out there kind of hacking away at this stuff site hersh you sort of you have to sort of support those journalists as well as that the other journalists know you're in on their little game and i'm happy for them you know if they want to have a nice career and write kind of b.s. like do that but then if i'm doing something a little different you know i would prefer them to that's i mean that's not even journalists i mean you go in supposedly to expose the power and these are the same types of and i want to it's not so much about the individual reporters but we saw the same sort of reaction for example to wiki leaks to you know the julian assange scandal to. politicians like ron paul or dennis kucinich they say what you will about their policy is that it almost seems like anytime someone comes out and says something that goes against the the mainstream narrative they're exiled to some

sort of a heretic yet i don't see that really changing do you i think well i think the way to change it is i mean in the back in the day if you did something like this i would have been hammered and buried but now there's enough other outlets out where you can actually who will defend you who put you on t.v. who put you on the radio show who will support you on twitter facebook and other social media so there is i think is open for the sort of gold needs to kind of resist against this but it's an uphill it's an uphill battle you know i mean the lesson the reason why the response was so severe in my case or in a case like the leaks we gradually manning and julian assange is being. the want to set an example they want to show oh no you can't do this you can't actually report what powerful people say you can't rip you can't try to write as accurately and as truthful as possible at its people because if you do you will be exiled but that's that's no longer the case and in fact what i've tried to do in show with this book is look you know i'm still alive i'm still standing they have put a drone strike out on me yet i'm not in get low you know i've yet you know i still

get invited to the cool parties occasionally. at the white house of course wants to know are there the christian part of the white house i people in the government still talk to me on a regular basis you can do it you know you can do it and the reason i know that is because other journalists who come before me have done it david however spin. so i her she's a people who showed that you can be very critical and fair to those in power and still and still have a career as a journalist now before we wrap up the interview i mean i know your book is sort of about where you see it in the past but where we left afghanistan today what do you see as the path forward do you see things spiraling out of control even worse is there any sort of forward what's what does the future hold i think president obama's remarks that the tide of war is receding it's quite telling that for all intents and purposes the afghan war is essentially over it's on the glide path down it's like iraq two thousand and eight two thousand and nine what's going to happen

after we leave or after we draw down to a lower presence my guess is just sort of some sort of low level civil war that's going to continue on and it's not going to be we're not going to be able to see too much of a difference i wouldn't think. that being said i think you have a situation where as long as the characters as long as american soldiers aren't getting killed then most then we can constantly are doing our fighting for us than these kinds of wars are. in your mind and might be right if drones or the afghan army are sort of different proxy forces we have if they're the ones dying then then we have an american public issue and they have very high tolerance to allow. is set to go on for a long time and so what's replaced point i mean is that you know the forget about troops on the ground let's do you know electronic while it's going to be the phrase does your is the c t plus it was vice presidents biden biden's plan it's a plan they should've adopted when it when obama took over and essentially it's small groups of special forces supplanted by drones and training the afghan army

and police to do their to do their bidding for them or to do their own fighting for them and i think and i think that's you know if you're going to be waging a war at least you know do it on the cheap in you know and not try to kill as many people as we have been of course i'm not sure of the residents of the targeted countries would necessarily agree but other than our probably not yeah well michael i really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us and for your work and thank you for showing up here in washington even though i'm sure there's a lot of journalists who aren't necessarily i love they're also there on the for the competition thank you so much you should buy the book if you haven't yet the author of the operators of the wild and terrifying inside story of america's war in afghanistan by michael hastings. and to really shed some light on all on the issue of guantanamo which of course did come up earlier in our discussion it is the tenth year anniversary of the first twenty prisoners arriving on the ground in guantanamo

bay the prison remains open and more importantly it seems like while guantanamo is nowhere near closing there are other legal infringements on the civil liberties not just of the so-called bad guys but people american citizens right here at home now earlier i spoke to jason leopold he's the lead investigative reporter of truth out dot org and i started off by sharing with him my thoughts on guantanamo and where we seem to sort of shift as a society as a setting the so-called status quo here says take. fact it's it's it's very sad that the public more or less this tune guantanamo out has tuned out. widespread human rights abuses that continue to take place in guantanamo i tried to impress this upon people time and again indefinite detention which your reporter spoke about in that segment is a human rights abuse it is an issue and abuse that we condemn other

governments for however what's happening now is that we have come to accept indefinite detention we have accepted the fear mongering. that is taking place on the floors of congress by democrats and republicans is just normal course of. doing business if you will in washington and so kuantan of mo truly does represent the normalization and as you mentioned of what we will see going forward i think that people are willing to accept it now it doesn't affect them let's face it they look at this as an issue that they do not need to be concerned about because they still see the majority of people there as terrorists even though we have seen evidence surface over the years that the vast majority

were in fact innocent but i also think that it's important to state that we have a number of a number which is we have tens of thousands of people in prisons in the united states as well who are. being tortured in psychologically with solitary confinement that not something that we find ourselves very concerned about of either well it's easy and almost you know sadly understandable in some ways that. people wouldn't really be concerned about something that they don't see that's not in their everyday lives that doesn't really affect them right there and then but i think the problem to me it seems and i'd like to get your take on this is that we are slowly step by step trending towards a situation where more and more of these laws these normalized behaviors are now essentially applying to u.s. citizens or at least legally there is the opening for for us citizens to get caught

up in this web of the sort of lack of do right and due process talk a little bit about where where you see that going and how actual americans not just those who are already in prison and possibly dealing with. you know isolated detention and why not talk about how this could actually impact. americans if these kinds of laws continue to sort of be implemented and take place. sure well you first of all you need to go back to immediately after nine eleven i mean look at the patriot act that's a law that's a law that does affect u.s. citizens we have seen evidence in the. whistleblower case involving the cia in which journalists have found their communications being. the patriot act is a very important example because first of all congress continues to reauthorize it

and nobody makes any noise about it. and. the laws continue to change in such a way that. people of the public are truly just willing to accept it but the reason that they're willing to accept it and i think that this is really important is that. it comes down to politics it comes down to a certain segment of the public does not want to criticize the obama administration or democrats for fear of. giving power if you will to republicans there's this this nonsense that's constantly communicated your only answer interest you there you really think that partisan politics would be the thing that's preventing people who actually do understand these developments from speaking out i mean that sounds shocking to me absolutely i absolutely see that i believe it and i have. experienced it i can tell you that oftentimes when

i will write a story about civil liberties issues that are critical of the ministration critical of policies that are being implemented that further where we're civil liberties are further eroded. as a result there's criticism by individuals on social networking platforms such as twitter for example who directly communicate with me and say that you realize that . this will result in newt gingrich getting elected something ridiculous such as that while it does seem i started in trouble there you brought up newt gingrich and we're just running out of time and actually want to bring up a separate sort of point of discussion into this conversation now earlier you talked about sort of the hypocrisy issue that's raised by guantanamo we often criticize other countries for torture for indefinite detention for behaviors that we ourselves commit when it comes to the issue of iran and targeted assassinations

for example it seems like there is a little bit of a double speak there too and i want to play you to sound bites from our. g.o.p. white house contenders let's take a listen. well there have been scientists or enough good in russia and in iran there have been computer viruses there have been problems at their facility i hope that the united states has been involved with the maximum covert operations. to block the iranian program would be moving taking out their scientists including breaking up their systems and all of that covertly all of it deniable. now yeah these are two guys with two points of views but you can't deny the fact that they they do speak out for some segment of this population to say that we hope that this country would be behind our target is that the nations abroad i mean what what's your take on that. look this is a this is part and parcel of what unfolded after nine eleven certainly

if it goes back to years years before. the what happened on nine eleven but. this is basically the way the far right conservative see us foreign policy assess it targeted assassinations drone strikes nothing is truly off limits and the rule of law means nothing to these people and i want to very briefly i'm almost out of time what's your prediction and if we're talking here ten years down the line where does the country going to be. well first of all i don't think we're on top of the will close thing kuantan i'm a will remain open i think that will start to see if laws. are implemented down the road that will. further strengthen if you will the police state which sort of seems like where you know where we're leaning toward and it's very

troubling and i think that people need to keep an eye on. the reauthorization of these laws particularly the patriot act with rain coming all right well it's hard to keep an eye on when these things happen seemingly behind closed doors and very quickly and just for a point of reference it took us ten years to bring the first responders bill into into effect and of course this and a passage was signed very quickly and passed very quickly jason thank you so much for the work you do and for taking the time to speak with us today. now we were speaking earlier to michael hastings about the footprint that u.s. soldiers may have left in afghanistan and unfortunately a disturbing developments that we're following right now new photos and video have emerged showing what appears to be american soldiers urine eating on dead body bodies in that country now imagine if that sort of thing was happening in the reverse right here at home this video that you're seeing right now posted online shows four men in combat gear standing over three corpses relieving themselves at

one point a game here one soldier say have a great day buddy that the u.s. marine corps has a launched an official investigation into the footage and the anonymous person who posted it included the caption scout sniper team four with the third battalion second marines out of camp late late late june peeing on dead taliban's the video and photos are of course sure to strain relations between washington and kabul relations that are already under extreme stress and it brings back memories of another american troops scandal the abu ghraib photos from iraq of course we'll keep you on top of this story and more on the news coming up at seven the one thing is clear images like this are not going to help with our legacy in afghanistan. now still ahead on our t.v. the occupy movement returns to zuccotti park it's been weeks since the protesters were kicked out by new york new york police so what is the return to the park mean for the movement as a whole stay tuned for the answer. lindsey

lowe and you raised the point about these women not people are suggesting she's told her no she says she's a star. and

they're back hundreds of occupy wall street protesters streamed back injuries or cody park last night as the barricades surrounding the lower manhattan plaza were finally moved there's a brief legal victory that had turned the park which essentially became a militarized zone barricades everywhere police everywhere private security officials everywhere essentially taking what became the symbolic birthplace the central place the meeting place of the occupy wall street movement and turning it into a dead zone where the protesters are back and what it all means for for the occupation whether they'll be able to stay whether they'll be tense i don't know but let's turn to ana stasia churkin a who's been on the ground and joins us live from new york. he spent the day there today what's the mood or what's going on and tell us what they're about. well you know lucy it really seemed like a bit of a division of the earlier on the ground today that really looks very reminiscent to what the movement looked like in the very beginning and september when everything

was just getting kick started we talked to a lot of the protesters who were there on the ground now we need to mention that last night when the occupiers moved back into the park it was several hundred people earlier today however it was about forty people not much more but the mood certainly is very very optimistic people seem very reenergized they're excited to have been able to get back into the park like you mentioned really the birthplace of occupy wall street that's where everything began and it's really looks like a lot of the skeptics were hoping that after the occupiers were kicked out of the park in mid november like you mentioned that would be the end of occupy wall street but certainly that has not been the case and the occupiers the protesters themselves believe this and they see this as a new chapter really for the whole movement that has now become nationwide over the last several months take a listen to what some of them told us earlier today you can't just barricade people out and you can't say that this park will either be used by no one or only by

people that live in this area should be open to everyone and so i think that it's important in so far as people can now come here and gather as we move into the spring and it gets warmer i think that this will return to being the movement now we have a space to convene is our spiritual this is the spiritual hub of the movement and people are back here even when the barricades are still there we were always here representing i mean sometimes you only see a handful up in the front but it's we've always been here. now it's important lucy of course to keep in mind that one of the main rules the new rules for the occupy wall street movement here in new york city is that they cannot have tents or sleeping bags back into the park and that was of course a large part of them being able to stay out there for months and protest and demonstrate and essentially bring attention to their movement these days that's something that's not allowed they can technically sleep there but that's certainly something they can't really do and that really impacts

a number of people there today and in the days to follow because not many people are you know able to sleep standing up well at the same time even though this this is of course a symbolic victory the visuals of course tell so much of the story almost as a result of these raids in the end the crackdowns that we've seen occupiers have been forced to be more creative right i mean they have spaces that are indoors near the area where they organize and they seem to continue to be able to turn out people in droves like they did on november seventeenth during the massive actions very briefly do you expect do you expect this to be sort of a boost for next week's actions which is i think the four month anniversary now of occupy wall street absolutely next week will month an entire form of mark an entire four months of the occupy wall street movement and lucy you know it's very important that critics this entire time were saying no way will occupy wall street be able to last until december they were really hoping that after the of the protesters would not come back but as you mentioned people have been gathering not necessarily in this park but in other locations indoors and they continue certainly

to do so with this place kind of returning as the main headquarters for the occupiers here in new york city right now say well thank you so much of those artes own honest i see it you're going to keep us updated on the latest in the reoccupation of the cody park unfortunate that does it for now but stay tuned for more stories you can always go to our website r.t. dot com up next is the alona show we'll be back at seven pm eastern. question is that so much as i know in which of course his wife monica nonsense of yours any of the republican party presidential contenders are falling over themselves in their support of israel is this a reflection of gross ignorance of history in the israeli.