to speak to radley balko about the need for more pardons in our justice system and how barbers moves might negatively affect that push and then the d.n.c. and the r. and c. are still months away but that doesn't mean the city is they'll be held in are preparing quite the opposite tampa and charlotte are loading up on tanks swat teams and surveillance helicopters on a colleague is going to tell us more about how these cities are turning into many police states right now all that and more for tonight including it does of happy hour but first take a look at the mainstream media has decided to miss. yesterday as we were starting off our show a new video has emerged of u.s. marines in afghanistan urinating on the bodies of dead taliban fighters and well we knew that that was an investigation had been launched it was all that we knew today an officer says the marines had identified the unit to which these marines belonged and one hasn't been top news let's not forget of course it's primary season nothing in this world could trouble action coverage in the mainstream media but they have

actually taken a considerable amount of time to report on this scandal. now that the investigation launched into a troubling video that appears to show us marines urinating on dead taliban taliban terrorist purportedly shot in afghanistan uploaded to the internet that shows a group of u.s. marines in uniform urinating on what appears to be several dead bodies for u.s. marines desecrating the bodies urinating on the bodies of taliban fighters with a green corps pretty confident that these are in fact u.s. marines in this video and very like just about everybody else who has seen those video called disgusting secretary of defense leon panetta has promised a full investigation of this videotape we don't know for a fact that it is indeed u.s. marines u.s. military leaders from the defense secretary on down say they are outraged they are promising a full investigation. now i've got a few things to say about this and solve it i believe from my discussion with tony

shaffer that's coming up but for now let's just take the time out to say well it's nice it's nice that the mainstream media has recognized that this is a story and those reflect on our war efforts and what war does to people but the truth is that it's not enough it's not nearly enough to see afghanistan is now america's longest war ten years and counting and yet our mainstream media barely even touches the subject they don't seem bothered by the lives lost by the money spent by the fatigue that set in for a war weary public and even that fatigue isn't where it should be because only one percent of americans are actually fighting today's wars and because the media doesn't report on those wars so it's a cycle that's playing itself out and the only what we see a large loss of life a helicopter crash or a scandal like this come along does the mainstream media finally wake up and play like they care they actually discussed it is such heinous acts could possibly be committed but the truth is they don't matter how many scandals there are that taint

public perceptions around the world the indeed reflect poorly on u.s. troops the bigger picture here is that this is what war does this is one of the things that happens in war a constant never ending war is not normal war is death and destruction and atrocities and the point is that it's going on every single day as long as we still have troops in iraq or afghanistan so spare me the sudden shock here this sudden recognition that things might be going wrong in afghanistan because all of the rest of the time that's in the mainstream media chooses to miss. now since the release of the video in the announcement of the investigation of u.s. marines urinating on the bodies of taliban fighters we've heard condemnations coming not only from the media but from secretary of defense leon panetta as well as afghan president hamid karzai and some fear that something like this might also put negotiations between the u.s. and the. taliban into jeopardy at the taliban's announcement earlier this month that they would be opening a political office in qatar but then

a taliban spokesman said that while the images were shocking the tape won't affect talks or a prisoner release at the same time though what talks are negotiations even really mean how they end up according to a new top secret u.s. intelligence assessment reported on by mcclatchy the u.s. intelligence community has a very serious doubts and it seems like the pentagon just doesn't agree joining me to ask us this is retired lieutenant colonel anthony shaffer senior fellow for the center for advanced defense studies and packed america and he's also author of the book operation dark heart tony i want to thank you so much for joining us tonight and if we can first just start you know we we first saw this video released just as we were starting the show yesterday but i like to get your comments and your take on it well i love i love your walk into this we're at war for ten years now and the inevitable consequence of that is you have a grinding effect on the military. to things first this is not indicative of the marine corps my best friends a marine i've served with thirty years i'm an army guy but i always respected

looked up to the marine corps with that said we have now as a military been accepting into the ranks including the army and the marine or individuals who would not otherwise fall off by because of background criminal activity or things in their own personal makeup which would not make them suitable those things that have developed in uniform once they're in the last year you might recall army soldiers were convicted for chilling afghan farmers for sport so we've got to look even our own selves into our system of how do we come to this point and i think it comes down to the point where we're ten years of war no clear movement forward and since you just brought up the an i.e.d. i'm literally true suit a letter moments ago from richard jones mcgovern demanding that president obama release the end i.e. immediately because of that very issue which apparently we've all been told it is that we're not winning and nor will we. what the current technology and method we're using to fight

a war well so let me let's get into this topic air right do you believe that negotiations are actually going to happen that they might be successful in any way i mean the fact of the taliban did not flip out over this video and said that negotiations are still on they're still happening at prisoners released from guantanamo bay you know is that a positive sign in your opinion i think the whole to go she should thing is of this frankly a sham we might as well be to go shooting directly with the pakistanis in the eyes size since that's really where the of the taliban have been able to sustain themselves so this is kind of the negotiating with your you know your hand over something that the taliban or or manufactured at the end of the soviet occupation there's a method of control for the i.s.i. in afghanistan so the longer we protect and. otherwise i think we just make things worse and the other issue with the telephone is this they are

a freedom resistance movement and one of their key issues is us being there and frankly one of the reasons the i assigned the pakistanis have so much control over us is because we're there trying to support the karzai government because we've become a proxy of the karzai government so i don't think we're going to get concurrence of president karzai frankly when this next week mr grossman goes seeking his approval for continuation of the gaucher issues are so then when we hear about this intelligence report of this intelligence assessment that's been made and over which apparently there's some debate and they say basically that you know that the taliban is going to want to regain full control of afghanistan that they're going to want to reinstate a religious type of rule is that kind of obvious i mean should people of already know that it's interesting to me that that that the fence officials say we don't agree and this is too much of a diva and a dark assessment. well i think it's more about the the amount of of investment we've made the assumption is we've made all this investment is going to cure it

past a time where there is just not going to happen with that said the same time the taliban have never made any bones about what they want to do but this is the issue they don't have that mass they don't have the force to come in to and re insinuate themselves completely to take control i think that's a myth so while i do believe that for the most part of the reports going to say the current actions aren't working i don't for a minute believe that the taleban will be able to reenter the way itself completely this is a this is a very tribal country and one of the reasons that we the taliban have been in the ground is because we keep pushing tribes that don't want to be affiliated with cars i into the cars i grew and therefore if you don't want to go to cars are you got to go to the taliban so frankly we've been adding. to the fiction and the moment we back off i predicted violence would volo way and i don't believe for a minute to tell it won't be able to become a cohesive enough force to take control of afghanistan by any and the imagination

well let me just get back very quickly to and then i want to move on to pakistan in terms of what i think also might be considered a p.r. war yesterday for example with michael hastings on the show talking about his book it was the operators so much of it is about the people that run these wars the way that they spin it the way that they control it and so is this a constant theme that we see between the intelligence agencies which often come up with their own assessments their own reports and the pentagon in the way that they want to present it to members of congress and to the public where they're constantly seem to be butting heads i feel like we always see the pentagon be a little more careful and optimistic and maybe not as realistic. absolutely not a foot in both camps for the past thirty years and frankly sometimes that there should be a good thing it's good to have a dissenting is so that you can balance what the reality is because a lot of things or frankly surprised prised politically posture with that said the deal. he has invested in this counterinsurgency strategy many of us predicted that what he was being implemented back two years ago would never work i said on fox

news go big or go home and going big meant by five hundred or six hundred thousand troops they didn't do it so here we are two years later and people are scratching their head about why are we winning but we aren't winning because we aren't understanding the deeper cultural issues which we must understand to bring this thing to a negotiated in this obviously goes to pakistan we're not dealing with pakistan realistically at this point well speaking of pakistan since november seventeenth the u.s. had halted its drone program and yet already in the last few days there is a drone strike yesterday that killed four people whom they say are militants today another drone strike that i believe killed six people say you know what does that tell you is that just a p.r. move to try to stop it for a little while appease the pakistanis and i think the drone program has been implemented as a feel good program it's much like like gun control it is it's it shows that you're doing progress but you're not really taking care of the issue in this case were guarding the use of drones we still how many number two al qaeda guys can you kill

in one year i mean this is this is that we've gone through all the targets we've hit a ball and now we're looking for literally low level guys who would probably be turned and moved back into some sort of a we're going to lesion process if we weren't showing them so this is where i think we're creating our own enemies by having this aggressive drone program and i saying never use drones no absolutely not we it is not effective tool but like many tools it has become overused and largely ineffective by its overuse hi tony i thank you so much for joining us tonight and unfortunately it seems like the drone program is only something if they're going to continue overusing if you look at it the trance thanks so much thank you. all right still ahead on tonight's show they got up they are we have seen bradley manning and mississippi governor haley barbour made headlines this he left the governor's office by pardoning over two hundred people so we come back for me here radley balko about what that means for the part of the system less. into it

only a military mechanism to do the work to bring justice or accountability. i have every right to know what my government should do if you want to know why i pay taxes. but i would characterize obama as a charismatic version of american exceptionalism. you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else you hear or see some other part of it and realize everything you thought you knew you don't know. welcome to the big picture.

of the capitol and i'm floored mr. to be there to believe the repetition of. one of the protest nobody seems to know. but never a pepper sprayed the face of the argument that they're being overly dramatic.

well today we've got an update for you on the fate of p.f.c. bradley manning the soldier accused of leaking cables and documents to wiki leaks face an article thirty two hearing in fort meade maryland and today the presiding officer lieutenant colonel paul monza has recommended that manning face a general court martial and a letter sent to the press the army explain what's going to happen next they say it's special court martial convening authority or review all moms as reports and determine what charges will be most fit for manning the army privates current charges are aiding the enemy wrongfully causing intelligence to be published on the internet where the enemy can access that information theft of public property and records transmitting defense information fraud and related activity in connection with computers and violating army regulations on information assurance and the army's information security program and major general michael listening to the court martial convening authority will decide if manning is in fact guilty of those

charges or what the appropriate punishment will be now according to the press release manning could potentially face a maximum punishment of life in prison also dishonorable discharge reduction to the lowest enlisted pay grade and or totally forfeiting his pay from the military welcome is that really surprising considering men his defense team presented their side of the case with the odds very heavily stacked against them we will continue to follow this story we will give you all of the latest information as it becomes available. now just yesterday we told you about a few positive developments for the occupy movement the county park was allowed to reopen after demonstrators were forced to evacuate in mid november and now good news is coming from the west coast where the occupy oakland movement proved to be one of the strongest in the country lucy caffein off showed us police donning riot gear clashed with protesters months back at the height of those protests if you say that there's a more peaceful speculations right there still going you know this exact thing at

least in layers and layers. it's ok yourself but this is an achievable one and. now while many raise questions about this aggressive behavior by police handful oakum police officers managed to stay out of the spotlight so what they did is they covered up their name tags while they were out in the streets and as protesters caught on they decide to speak out against this move taken this example from preferred talk refer terrance williams who posted this video on youtube. this is what it is going to get you actually are not showing. that it. is going to do you know. how to do that. now thanks to that video an expedited internal investigation was carried out by the oakland police department and we've asked occasional turman of the officer in question in this video hargraves decided to cover his name he says out of concern

for his safety and the safety of his family but the thing is the police department noted that hargraves actions were a clear violation of the police code one requires uniformed officers to display their names at all times and they've set forth what they deem appropriate punishment for him and we've had an officer who ripped off the name tag and we should note here the reason the lieutenant was punished is because he failed to report hargraves violation to his higher ups another violation the police department and the details of officers punishment of been kept from the public but the fact that the police department is actually carrying out a punishment i think is a sign of hope for this movement right there been plenty of conflicts surrounding occupiers filming police officers but this just proves how important it is to actually keep those cameras rolling to hold cops accountable for their actions now allow them to hide that so i think this might be a small step for the occupy movement but hopefully i don't courage people to keep fighting for change. when mississippi governor haley barbour was on his way out of

office this week after eight years he granted it two hundred and three part in such a felony that's more than double the total number of pardons issued by the state since one nine hundred eighty eight and one ninety percent of those pardoned were already out of prison twenty six were still in jail some of them convicted violent criminals and as is the typical response the public was outraged but then just yesterday in mississippi judge blocked the pardons on the basis of constitutional violations five prisoners who had already been released now i have to go back twenty one others have been getting processed for release so what does this absurd say about our pardon system here in the us public perceptions and about the power of the pardon maybe being in the wrong hands joining me to discuss it is radley balko senior writer and investigative reporter for the huffington post rally thank you so much for joining us tonight and i guess let's just ease into this and start with with the basics what it really means for somebody to be pardoned by the governor right because as i mentioned in this case more than ninety percent of these people are already out of prison but is it really just about restoring basic

rights that they have so they're not second class citizens anymore. yeah once you're out you get a pardon it basically means that. yeah your voting rights that would be restored and your. you know right to run for office or right to own a gun that all those rights with the wrist restored the pardon power then you know it was it's intended or that when the founders who did the constitution it was defend it was it was intended to be a sort of last check on injustice so you know people who were there were serious doubts about their guilt or people who you know maybe that became something but. you know the law was applied in a way that the outcome was well it's not just i mean that was what it was intended for and when it's usually use for now is political patronage and a sort of a way of conferring redemption on people for you know for crimes that they are obviously guilty of and i think that's really what it's happened here with with

elite barber is that a lot of these people that he's really gotten a lot of trouble for pardoning or commuting sentences were people who killed their wives and girlfriends in a lot of cases and they were people who there's no question that they were guilty that they did it but they were fortunate enough to gotten onto this trustee program where they were. barbers lawn or you know cleaning up around the mansion and it got to know them they got some face time with them and it's really sort of a strange way of using the pardon when it's odd because we don't really see too many governors use the pardon power all that often right because the public never wants to see somebody or at least from public perceptions they often look at it as this means that you're just letting a bunch of criminals go free and start roaming the streets and they have a very emotional reaction to it and nobody wants another willie horton so why would why did barbour do this. it's a good question i mean i don't know i think you know in his press release it mentioned a lot about you know the cost of keeping some of these people and

a lot of them you know they they have served their sentences and they were out so you know he was trying it claimed us trying to give them another start but it is just it's it's really just kind of strange i mean bar harbor refused to earlier in his first term he refused to pardon this. civil rights activists was trying to basically was trying to integrate and were city of southern mississippi and was basically framed for a crime so that you would have a criminal record so that the school could turn him down for admissions that he couldn't integrated but refused to give this guy a posthumous pardon just sort of out of principle of you know he just doesn't like to give out pardons. so it's you know it's. new the unfortunate thing i think the unfortunate far out from this is that it's going to be much harder for governor and out digital partners because of what barbara did here i'm just curious to you know how difficult is that to get parting or at least to get on the governor's radar you know is there a specific process that's involved if you have money if you have influence this is

something that can be essentially bot. i mean it really varies from state to state and you know federal pardons are almost impossible to get and in fact they under the current administration actually under the bush administration george w. bush will stingier than any president since washington and obama's action which stevens to ensure than bush when it comes to pardons i mean it is difficult at all you know and some there are some governors that have been very generous in handing out pardons and i've actually used it in the proper way of looking for you know cases where people got absurdly long sentences for you know minor drug crimes or people we in some cases you know when d.n.a. exonerates somebody when the world will get a pardon. you know in mississippi i don't know it was very it's always been very difficult to get a pardon just because they've always had very sort of tough on crime governors he didn't like to hand them out when i was down there in seven six and it was reported in the korean made case one of a barber senior aides told me that he doesn't even read part of petitions you know

that they don't even get to his desk. and everyone you know that's not true anymore but yeah i mean i think it's you it's very very difficult they're usually handed out very sparingly but it varies from state to state in terms of you know what what the exact processes are but then are you know somebody who believes that the part of power should be used more often that it's not getting taken advantage of in the right way and how do you even think that maybe we should have a different system set up for him for trying to rights and wrongs of our justice system. i think it definitely needs to be used more i think at several levels i mean obama has been really scandalous scandalously. stingy with the pardon power i think in part maybe eighteen people since taking office i think that's the correct number. yeah but i think needs to be used much more often i think executives should be much more aggressive about looking for injustice and trying to find flaws in the criminal justice system that they can they can fix any of the pardon power is a good way to draw attention to bad laws or laws have been applied and back weights

so yeah i would like to see it. used much much more often i don't know in terms of changing how it's done i mean the whole purpose so that is that you know you give this executive this sort of on lynching and question power that can't be done. and i think that's a good thing and i mean it's a way of sort of having this last check on the criminal justice system if everything else fails and you know some people if you're talking about you know bringing the legislature into the pardon process or having some other sort of check on the governor's power i think that really sort of defeats the purpose of having the pardon power and i do think that was boaters and as members of the media public it's good to to you know hold governors and the president accountable on this issue and make them use the pardon power in better ways now i'm wondering if there are some a minute maybe that might need to be broken up too because like i said this always becomes a very emotional thing especially for the families perhaps of the victims involved

and we saw the exact same thing happen here in mississippi and so often their fears are not only now are they going to be criminals running the streets around the schools or my children live but they're going to come back and come after the family happened you know are there any statistics out there to show that really happens often or not. i mean it almost never happens one because. the owners don't you know that they're very careful about this especially if they have political ambitions be on you know the office the governor's mansion. so the so yeah i mean they're usually very careful about this i mean there was the mike huckabee pardon a few years ago and the guy you know shot up a diner and even that case you know in the neck is up to the i think it is the pardon again on the wrong way if there was no question about the guy's guilt we pardon him because he thought of the sentence was too long but also because he thought the guy had you know so redeem himself and he clearly had an image in the willie horton case that actually was in a pardon or a commutation that was just pockets had given him a furlough to get

a camera or what what the reason if you needed a furlough was that actually it was let out for a weekend and then went on to get a couple to oncet yawn you know be on those two cases i mean i don't know what unique case where somebody was pardoned you know for a violent crime that went on to commit more violent crimes once they were out i mean i'm sure it's happened but it certainly doesn't happen very often just wondering you know have there's a way to try to break through it somehow because obviously it's hard how do you convince people not to have certain fear is but shouldn't you also try to put the statistics out there so people know i think it's good to put out you know put out that we publicize them or the d.n.a. exonerations that we've seen publicized you know a lot of these cases of people who've been wrongfully convicted and groups like families against mandatory minimums you know constantly point out it's i like these cases where you know the law girlfriend of a drug dealer you know ends up getting sixty years in the dealer and so it's ten you know just because of the way that the drug laws are set up you know i think

that you can make a strong case for more you know broader use the problem of the pardon power just by pointing out you know how just how often there are unjust outcomes in the criminal justice system i rather thanks so much for your insights and i. will tell me i'm. all right coming up for hear from our viewers in tonight's show and tell and that it seems that one of the biggest issues to hit the r. and c. and d. and d. this year was the candidates themselves but rather the security after the break we're going to terminate cities are going too far when it comes to keeping the peace.

there's still a reason the repetition of. what a protest nobody seems to know. that never a pepper sprayed the face but part of the argument that they're being overly dramatic. you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else you hear sees some other part of it and realize everything is. welcome to the big picture.

mr.