hello and welcome to crossfire computor all about the biggest and most expensive elections money can buy this is how many americans see what are called political action committees or super pacs are the super pacs good for democracy do they really inform in voters and are elections now only about money. and. cross-talk political action committees i'm joined by seton motley in washington he is the president and editor in chief of the less government also in washington we have greg coleman he is a government affairs lobbyist for public citizen and in los angeles we crossed a room he is the founding editor of the independent newspaper are gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i really very much encourage a room in los angeles if i go to you first and in researching this program i came

across i thought it was a very interesting and if not funny statement everyone loves to hate super pacs one critic said that they were quote a new political animal that is ugly loud and anti-democratic would you agree or disagree with that statement. well it's certainly is fundamentally anti-democratic sensually have extremely wealthy people who can come in corporations that can come in with no disclosure they can coordinate with campaigns spend huge amounts of money distorting the political process they can basically broadcast whatever propaganda they like that would ever time and we live in an age the second gilded age in america where there's just enormous concentration of wealth and we know that there billionaires are running around whether it's someone like george soros or the koch brothers who have a vested interest and trying to game the political system and we have to see this

also in the larger context of how money is used in politics in the united states or something like seventeen thousand registered lobbyists in washington d.c. the vast majority of them controlled by corporations or trade groups and they exist essentially to a influence the process to write laws and regulations so that money flows towards them and this is what citizens united and the super pacs are all about it's arrived at the point that we have the best democracy that money can buy ok craig what do you think about that in washington d.c. that's i don't has a pretty strong opinion but do you think about it. you know i've got to take that opinion even stronger or super pacs are perhaps the most dangerous trend we've seen in the financing of american elections recently you know this. supreme court five justices on the supreme court opened an absolutely disastrous floodgate of

unlimited in largely undisclosed money in american elections when they ruled just two years ago this is the anniversary by the way of the citizens united decision in which five justices ruled that corporations are to be treated as people under the u.s. constitution and therefore can make unlimited expenditures now that's bad enough that we're having this flood of unlimited corporate money flowing into elections and it which is largely going undisclosed but then to make it even worse we've got this new phenomenon called super pacs that are directly and very closely aligned with each of the presidential candidates he's our candidate specific groups that are receiving unlimited corporate money on limited union money unlimited wealth from individuals specifically to support a candidate either romney gate bridge or bamma is setting up his own as a result we're going back to the pre watergate era in which the very wealthy get to

buy these election if i got a seat in here and i have to point out to our viewers here is that i was a small boy during watergate and i can remember afterwards a lot of people said at least the the positive outcome of this scandal called watergate was election campaigning reform and it is that all gone now with the with the decision in two thousand and ten because it looks like we've just seen if you decades go ahead. unfortunately no it's not all glenn i'm sorry you guys are so in effect a cult of free speech. money is speech in our society money money is groceries in society you can argue that it's not but try leaving the grocery store with some groceries without money money is speech in this country and i'm sorry you guys are so obtusely offended by all this free speech going on the reason super pacs and this is because we still have stupid anti first amendment campaign finance laws on the books if you want to complain about lobbyist lobbyists is one of the few jobs

it's actually mention the comp constitution petition congress. grievances the problem is government is so incredibly huge that it requires so many lobbyist to try to hurt it and beat it back off people's particular industries if you want to work campaign finance reform were do says size scope and sphere of influence of government and then won't be any needed to bribe all these politicians ok what do you think about that i mean. if it's a free speech issue here i mean it gets down to you can those that have free speech doesn't have the money if you have money you can have free speech well of course. this is based on the absurd notion that corporations are people and as justice stevens has called separation of distance you know in a way in a way you know who are already sins are asian a lot away allow them to run for office why don't we allow them to vote you know i think i would be more on this why don't we have president exxon mobil i mean i

think a good example of this is just the police are at it but it's just a bigger terms of big corrupting influence of money in our society is that over the last few years julie the energy industry and its allies have been pouring about three to four billion dollars a year i was working with keystone like this story there's a. change. they're basically interested in. subtly trying to distort what is. proven science that the climate is shifting now and honestly believe that species that are because you're their habitat unless you do you remember the climate unless you believe. that the planet itself is this fraud where spring is coming earlier where ecosystems are are shifting you want your story was what you see if you know. this craig is going to graduate.

craig going it's all that. money let's talk about the money issue right let's talk about the money issue as opposed to the policy you know you talk about i mean is money is there we don't want to see it first ever ever ever says watergate ever since watergate we recognize that when you have any individual or corporation or any entity that can throw in too much money to a candidate you can potentially corrupt that candidate so now that we have and so with the watergate era we set up it's one of the ways in which we want to hear romney's one how much money can go into politics we've lost those reasonable limits and now ok and that all groups corporations anyone can throw in five million ten million to support a presidential candidate specifically that candidate and that candidate is going to know who who feathered his or her bed to get elected president that is

a very very easy to use a little upset that the free market people can now spend as much as the unions always could these were ok seating can i ask you a question here i mean it's well known it's common knowledge that most of these super pacs that are supporting candidates which is pointed out they're former staffers from the candidate there's no sure i nice chinese wall there now but i mean that's what they're supposed to be so i don't care if. it's on constitution. you know wall it's an unconstitutional law you're telling people how they can spend their money this is why i mean isn't. that somehow corporations are people ok ok obvious here's me who forms corporations people do they don't lose their rights because they form a business or form of people who drive cars so what i mean is are just going to use your immunities for graduations or and i really want to and i is why down gentlemen craig if i can go to you again i'd like to go go go back to these things i mean super pacs ok they have a lot of money we've all agreed to that ok but it's also

a way to deny it's an adult deniability you know we have the candidate saying well this this ad ran and well i have nothing to do with it i didn't have any involvement in it but of course it's that candidates former staffers that are going to knowing there's a horse to my law to say i'm asking craig. that that's exactly that's exactly right what we're seeing going on in the republican primaries where the republican candidates are criticizing their own super pacs for doing these negative and false ads and it really is just a whole bunch of bluster these super pacs are doing exactly what the candidates want to do they pretend that they don't even see the ads that the super pacs are running yet every time one of these presidential candidates gives a speech they're echoing exactly what the super pacs are saying the super pacs are are the dirty mechanisms they're the ones that can do all the dirty work for the presidential candidates coming up with the lies slanders or just negative campaign

ads while the candidates themselves try to distance themselves in arm's length and say i criticize what that super pac did but you know this is the message so it's really all bluster i mean all these presidential candidates are for realizing are exceedingly beneficial ok seated why are they forced. into a lot of those stupid law says that they can't coordinate. with the super pac and now you're criticizing them for a hearing to the stupid law that you're insisting upon but they are coordinating that's all really ours coordination rules are coordinated. and deal with your stories i. believe for one second for not coordinating former staffers for a candidate are not a problem with them coordinating with them you both have a problem coordinating i don't have a problem with them coordinating this is free speech a lady going to go out every morning the important point is that this keeps getting

back to the issue of free speech and many constitutional scholars this time so it has to do is actually the five four majority decision swept aside more than a century of precedent that this was a radical illegal. that was overturning all sorts of precedent in terms of. the supreme court so there's such a great constitutional scholar maybe you can and i want to buy your position there some corporation well how. are you going to get is will leave and we're going to show you here is a bad precedent. all right gentlemen to jump in here we're going to be sure to show you a short break in a row we'll keep the discussion going to do that we'll continue our discussion on super pacs stay.

please to. be

tuk. tuk. anything. you want. welcome back to cross talk on your lapel jumanji we're discussing whether super pacs are good for democracy. and you can. do that. ok and then i to ask you do these super pacs and these really dreadful ads are they put on television and do they actually inform people is there any information valuable information there to make decisions sure sure i'd like everybody else on this panel i actually trust the american people to discern

and delineate what's useful and what's not and make a rational and intelligent decision these people seem to think the american people are shaping maybe it's and can figure out what's true and what's not in these ads well i mean if you're crowding out the public sphere and you're only getting certain messages it's card to make a decision greg you want to jump in there go ahead excuse me and that is a cornucopia you can get whatever you want or need to tell you internet the ads are not swaying people well but i mean seen you would probably agree with me they did that then if it isn't the case then why are they spending so much money on it go ahead craig jump in more because it's part of the process i have never heard a radio very negative ads and these are very negative ads they these are this is not useful information these are very you know you better get mich. a mitt romney who had previously supported abortion rights rag and gingrich for supporting abortion rights which gingrich doesn't i mean it's misinformation that it's coming out here and negative advertising this is not constructive that it's not only turns

off voters towards the election but it also increases the cost for buying campaign ads for the candidates on the parties who have serious messages to offer no this is drowning out yeah they didn't really have a lot of a serious message the d.n.c. is full of. excuse me i had a question when it went a.b.c. long and they're rewarding when n.b.c. lives in their reporting they're not they're not held to this accountability standard that you're applying to private citizens why is that. well i mean. they are their own laws it's practice journalism no no no no look here's the thing about. the whole citizens united and super pacs we have to see this in the historical context of the destruction of the fairness doctrine in one nine hundred eighty seven by the reagan administration there was there another. public airwaves they are public in the interest to regulate the public airwaves

to have a healthy democracy and by these corporations and wealthy individuals being able to funnel in tens of millions of dollars they are controlling the public airwaves and now what it has to do is. of opinion it's not about that you can spend hours or days maybe finding a dissenting opinion it's what people are bombarded with every day that's why they start to believe that global warming is a fraud even though the evidence is so horrible that's why it's wrong and you know . again it is what matters here it's the buying of the political process ok i want to stay with that note here craig i want to go back to you do you think that media is complicit in this is well it's because they make an actually a lot of money off of this i mean these ads are expensive they make money off of it

and they would like to see the process go on as long as possible because it's very profitable for television stations it has nothing to do with journalistic values or democratic hopes or anything else it's about making a lot of money and they're pretty pleased with it they love the primaries. you know you know by the way it's not only the media who's getting rich off these elections off of these super pacs it is also many of the people who are running these super pacs if you take a look at the super pacs since they're unaccountable to any real candidate or political party they tend to hire their own people to do the media work their own colleagues their own partners there is a flood of money go into these super pacs and we find it all being circulated within a very small elite circle of people who are running the super pacs because they lack accountability so it's not only a dangerous trend for elections this is this is right for corruption here ok really it's it seems you know why free speech or free markets ok but i mean is this just

buying elections now i mean you crowd out the space with negative. i mean go ahead there have been people over shares of american people are shape you know we we've we've we've heard your talking points enough times already yes of course it is about buying elections look i just spent the last three love zero like i'm a stoner not to be swayed by i had to tell you that as of our poll i talked to hundreds of people all across the country in various cities who were all saying the same things our voice doesn't matter they said things like you can't you're not a corporation unless you have a senator or two in your pocket you know we can't buy the political process like corporations can people across the country raising here is going to say you know. do you have americans one hundred people that is own bought and sold and oh and by the corporations and you can go out and find this and i didn't write i was going to

get elected across but it was i was free market brother and i received huge amounts of money from wall street barack obama is part of the problem ok i'm not a partisan like you there. money has fundamentally on the art as a political process that's how wall street that's how long. and centrally crashing the global economy ok they have bought the political process that was already. a result no doubt they they were able to buy a huge huge bailout and then they were able to essentially sabotage any sort of finance reform there's been no sort of proper prosecution the democrats and republicans are peas in a pod on this issue and on many other issues you know barack obama has also the. climate change talks. craighead joining amp in there. the most frightening aspect about this is super pacs are not just buying elections this time around

they're actually trying to buy the white house and. that's a very frightening prospect here where we're seeing not only so much money going in there we're seeing super pacs that are really essentially coordinated with the presidential candidates pumping five million ten million one hundred million to support a presidential candidate whoever is going to be elected president is going to know who he or she owes their election to this is this is a frightening prospect for america i'd like to also you know i want you to say it was a lot of this. village x.l. pipeline which i think you can tell by the lack of civility this is going on right now. ok gentlemen. which i think is a great example there was a recent vote in the house on the x.l. pipeline in terms of the representatives who voted against approving the x.l.

pipeline they had received perhaps about one million dollars from the oil and gas industry for those who wanted the x.l. pipeline and the vote was pretty close they had received over eight million dollars from the. well and gas is our story so it's going to happen is into the buying of the political process. is going on go ahead jump in excuse me you know just naysaying is a way certainly you know second of all money chases ideas it's not the other way around i wasn't a liberal until somebody wrote me a check and then all of a sudden i was a conservative that's absurd the money chases the ideas not the other way around ok craig you know if i could go out of the can't is totally true if i go back to campaign financing you know up until the supreme court decision you know you don't contribute campaigns you know there was accountability do you think there's any reason for middle class people to write

a check for any candidate these days if so much big money is out there that crowds out the process being part of the political process and supporting candidates is it's what's the point in doing it i mean if ten dollars is nothing compared to the numbers you just mentioned being part of the political that's a story which i think there is a value that we could have a lack of money to. take take a look at the occupy wall street movement the occupy d.c. moment to what occupy k. street with the tea party i mean this is where groups citizens of average americans are finding their frustration and many many of these people especially in the occupy wall street movement are actually advocating don't bother voting it doesn't matter anymore we're not going to see is very easy to get into here and i like it is in the one thousand years i've lived here and they don't have a ton of money wait a minute wait a minute the tea party elected sixty plus republicans in the house live here and they don't have this kind of money so what are you talking about what are you

talking about so if you have to. go to. the others who are out there they had one hundred ninety days that there are there is there are two hundred million dollars there said increase to. forty seven percent of citizens when i want to say that i'm spending they had a ton of money i had a ton of money come on like i was and they didn't i know the top three tea party groups believe me they love to have a ton of money they don't ok that's absurd and i mean this is this is go ahead go ahead. this is essentially the story goes on it's basically. you know we hear these blatant blame lies at least least on this show that we you know we're able we're able to counter some of these lies but the but the thing about citizens united and what you already have yourself they are able to essentially spew propaganda with no opposition whatsoever and this

and i think it's true that when it was where it was and i think you know no you know i think we should we should we should l.o.l. especially in two thousand fitted like nascar drivers where it shows their sponsors on their suits you know they they should have to wear lower those sort of michael thanks on mobile and the koch brothers ok craig go ahead jump in we're going to see eight eight eight billion dollars spent in the two thousand and twelve elections and we're going to see a decrease in voter turnout because most of that money is going to be very negative it's going to you know leave most americans feeling disgusted with our campaign finance system and it is not going to help mobilize or increase the confidence or increase the integrity of the democratic system in the u.s. ok we're in a very dangerous period i want to echo that ok see them with the last word twenty seconds. well first of all government was strong we wouldn't have to do all those

second of all the reason tara is going to be down is because obama's. magical run is over and a lot of the new first time voters who never voted but voted for him will be gone next time ok gentlemen very spirited discussion thank you very much many thanks to my guest today in los angeles and in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember cross talk. and you can. download the official tea allocation to your i pod touch from the champs to. life on the. video on demand on t.v.'s mine gold

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serious slams an arab league plan to solve the country's crisis requiring president assad to step down calling it an interference in its internal affairs. the e.u. formally adopts of oil embargo against iran as part of president the sanctions against the country there are fears that the sanctions may backfire joins me for the details in a few moments. croatia votes in favor of joining the dead stricken e.u. but a low turnout for the national referendum and violent protests exposed deep divisions within the country.

eight pm in moscow i match reza good to have you with us here on r t our top story this hour syria has rejected an arab league proposal to resolve the country's crisis requiring president assad to give up power damascus a slender plan as interference in its internal affairs and an attack on its sovereignty or he's sorry for more about since. the end of likud president bashar al assad to step down and to have. his deputy and they also called for the full nation of a national unity government and that would be a really early parliamentary and presidential elections now those schools have been vehemently rejected by the syrian government can say could play into the variance with the intent of the fed is really the fence here from damascus is that the government has their writing reforms they want the admission.