no injuries e.g. jersey and when it did witness been regime change if there had a little nato bombs in there would not have been a regime change without nato bombs r.v.s. well i think you're probably right emotionally and so experience you go on it was very clear from what was said beside what was said it was very clear that the countries involved including the united states welcomed regime change if you look at the interviews that president obama secretary clinton and so on secretary gates at the time gave it was very clear from the beginning that in a sense the coalition would not simply abide by nine hundred seventy three implications of one thousand nine hundred seventy three but that the regime change was very much part and parcel of what is if i can collective durgan i could say with you wasn't that an abuse of the resolution resolution one hundred seventy three. well i think there are many people that argue that indeed what the coalition

then they went far beyond demanded that nine hundred seventy three allowed for them and therefore i think your question about whether the responsibility to protect still can still work is indeed a very good one libya indeed was a very unique case and part because of the language that was used by the regime and so on and so it becomes much more difficult remember in libya you had the arab league on board very early on you had the fact that russia and china were willing to abstain or rather than veto nine hundred seventy three i think that becomes much more difficult in a case like syria where particularly russia has a more direct interest it doesn't make it impossible i think but the diplomatic process to get to the kind of nine hundred seventy three type of resolution that we've seen on libya will prove to be much more difficult in syria and perhaps in the end to may not happen ok diana fine go to you can you tell me who the hell is the n.p.c.

who are these people after all these months it's still very opaque who are they. well you know we we know that these are people who who who were privileged and under the old regime and who decided they could be more privileged under a western style regime i think you know this thing about wanting democracy when when it seemed as if it had ended here because this is not doing it only us when i have even finished i haven't said anything and you're interrupting me and i am saying there you have you said. it is which are simply are not true what my problem i didn't say that my problem with the m.d.c. is that a lot of the rhetoric there that exiles that have come back and some of my actually lived in the suburbs of langley and that's my issue ok my issue is that these are western sarah gets and i saw this as a matter of fact one of the issues and libya is right now that when you talk to libyans they refer to the t.n.c.

the transitional council as a government off foreigners and so i think you put your finger right on about these are not cronies of gadhafi as a matter of fact most of those people have been arranged out of the t.n.c. has brought in and i'm not even if you were going to. the number of them were exiles and saw in a sense that is part of the problem and why they are not legitimate is because they really have no standing in the country at this point to make you want to jump in they're going to have to remember with the end to see that many of these are brave people who were a great risk from gadhafi when they joined the revolution of last fall of being. about to go down anyway you want to realize why they had a good escape i think i mean these are people that had western backing. though no you live you went to see them took them to paris they were not risking very much they were sitting in benghazi under western protection whatever happened to the rest of this is they were already taken care of nic this is a this is

a ridiculously this is a very very rewarding. so these are guys who went into a sort of support were put in power by the west and if you had been in benghazi and seen the chaos of it in february march there was a spontaneous revolution and the people who stepped forward to join me and to see were completely disorganized there was no western backing for them at the beginning they call western backing later when he was under attack actually from good from good time but i think this was so this was a revolution it wasn't a regime change the writ of revolution came first and then the western backing came . and it was a rebellion if you it was a rebellion that was very quickly an armed rebellion and it is quite normal for governments wherever they are to repress an armed rebellion i'm sure that would happen in the u.k. as the only i did say so anywhere else and we cannot go around the.

world supporting every single uprising in every single country no we just chose it because they don't like gadhafi and they thought this was an easy one this would there was no real armed forces as mr vandeleur have pointed out there was no real army it was a look like a very very easy war to win and it was pretty easy although it took the longer than they wanted and then afterwards there's chaos but as far as getting rid of gadhafi it looked so easy it was tempting and that's why he did and now they're going it's time to point out there's a lot of oil there as well or that i can change gears really change gears here there's a lot of oh i know there's a lot of money there's a lot of there other jerk i'd like to go to you first it's a little out of resources and i listen i was so let me change gears we're running out of trying to help a africa become independent i want to change gears here and i want to go to work first i mean i want to look at interventions here and i'm going to include

afghanistan and iraq ok when we have regime. change do you think that countries where there's a western intervention like we have with libya we have with iraq and we have with afghanistan and then compare it to like where there wasn't and there is a regime change when we look at tunisia and egypt don't you think it's indigenous change of power there's a better chance for democracy like we have in egypt like we have in tunisia because western interventions military interventions slow it down or curb it or warp it and that's what we're seeing right now do you think that's fair. no i think that's a fair point to make i think if you have western intervention it creates inevitably and i think we will see this in libya sooner rather than later also it creates some kind of resentment and so if you can have a kind of if you want to an indigenous movement against those in power in the end i think it's tells spells greater success but we should qualify that also if we look

for example at egypt where you know the rebellion was indigenous was really local as a matter of fact we've not seen a great amount of change and egypt and it looks as if egypt in the end to may look very much the way you did before the rebellion started a year ago so i think in principle it's right and i think certainly in libya this will turn out to have said this all along to be much more of a nationalist uprising than anything else and so eventually i think. it will come to some extent haunt the west but i think you're absolutely right local is better but we haven't we should remember also a local was possible in the case of egypt and tunisia very you had a national army that could serve as a buffer between the regime and the people the point was that in libya you had no national army you had militias that stood you know i had to be has the dead were there at the behest of the gadhafi government when in libya the uprising started

you truly had an implosion and what really was revealed was what we haven't seen in every other country so far that there's a total vacuum of power a total vacuum of institutions that the other speakers have really talked about and that makes it much much more difficult whether that is with western intervention or without western intervention to create a modern state in libya ok ok nic i'm going to you the last word you have thirty i know that i know you want to make please let me go to nic nic is he going to get messier in libya. well yes i think it is going to be messy i think there's going to be several years of turmoil there may be some bloodshed there may be fighting between militias but i don't think it will become a civil war and you have to remember we're talking about western intervention this is a very limited western intervention how many western troops are there in libya at the moment. ok gentlemen and lady look like you all look like your own separate militias on this program many thanks to my guest today in hanover paris and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and

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play. play. play. play shocking revelations in an already troubled post gadhafi libya and human rights groups accuse them of a true torturing detainees to death. activists are back on the streets opponent to protest against the government signing of a key international until. they say when the sultan internet censorship. and iran considers banning oil sales to europe at the being used to signal to stop importing crude from the country in july but iran says it's ready for negotiations over its nuclear program.

focusing life in the heart of the russian capital this is r.t. several detainees in libya have died in recent weeks as a result of torture according to amnesty international human rights group says the crimes were committed by the libyan military and. security forces the accusations of follow similar claims by a french medical aid agency for thousands of gadhafi loyalists remain behind bars now suffering the same atrocities handed out on the late colonel's regime parties rafa national has more doctors without borders known for going do their job in the most dangerous and notorious places around the globe but an end to see run libya the group has encountered a formidable obstacle they couldn't overcome burns from electric shocks and cigarettes heavy bruising and renal failure all this evidence of the continued

torture of prisoners say the doctors and now after two inmates died from beatings the international group has stopped its mission in protest patients were brought to us in the middle of interrogation for medical care in order to make them fit for further interrogation this is an acceptable our rule is to provide medical care to work on tuesdays and sick detainees not to repeatedly treat the same patients between torture sessions the news comes amidst rising anger with libya's interim government demonstrations in benghazi last week ended with the resignation of a high ranking member of the m.t.c. in the former gadhafi stronghold of bani walid locals pushed out the council forces claiming systematic abuse. it started with the very beginning of the rebellion the very beginning of the insurrection the second day of the rebellion on eighteenth of february so the african migrants were rounded up locked in

a detention center and burnt to death and the n.p.c. expressed support for this time and this is part of the strategy of the west you know divide and rule and that was given the green light for the torture and execution that we're seeing now so this is a clear recipe for civil war meanwhile the nato operation that brought the m.t.c. to power is by itself raising questions. and high profile international team of human rights activists has been to leave here to investigate some of the nato that it presents at its word with their evolution is in the frogs and there were guiding the air raids and they are acting them and court again meeting them if you are mandated. to protect. that thought it is very very accurate in a way that i myself saw the killing of so many people in front of more my eyes i

saw the killing of fifty one people in front of my eyes was fifteen years old and while all sides in the libyan conflict are to blame for violence and violations the human rights activists claim not all of them have been held responsible for their wrongdoings investigating what happened during labor seven months civil war and the nato campaign to protect civilians this fact finding mission discovered again crimes against humanity but the goal was not to judge but to shed light on what happened and not to repeat the mistakes in recent united nations report has revealed that up to eight thousand supporters have been held by militia groups in libya right now and with numerous occasions of torture and revenge killings throughout the country hopes of a new beginning for libya are fading quickly. r.t. . to libya's post gadhafi government the national transitional council has so far

failed to bring peace and stability to the country coming up later here on out here people of ellen his guests on cross-talk debate why the militias who overthrew the co are reluctant to obey the new leaders. who the hell is the n.p.c. who are these people after all these months it's still very opaque who are they. well you know we we know that these are people who who who were privileged and under the old regime and who decided they could be more privileged under a western style regime i think you know this thing about wanting democracy when what is seen as it or you didn't hear it because there's just not to be your only yes when i don't even finish i haven't said anything in your interrupting me. i am saying there you have you said. which are simply not true what my problem.

my problem with the n.p.c. is that a lot of the. exiles that have come back and some of my actually lived in the suburbs of langley and that's my issue ok my issue is that these are western surrogates and i saw this as a matter of fact one of the issues in libya is right now that the when you talk to libyans they refer to the t.n.c. the transitional council as a government off foreigners and so i think you put your finger right on the mark these are not cronies of gadhafi as a matter of fact most of those people have been arranged out of the t.n.c. has brought in and i'm not even if you were going to. were exiles so in a sense that is part of the problem and why they are not legitimate is because they really have no standing in the country at this point. the more angry protests have broken out in poland the government gave its support an international piracy treaty to say the pact and then there's actor freedom of

online expression poland joined several other e.u. countries that closed door signing ceremony in japan on thursday that's more. i'm. down with censorship the end so i come to a few trade agreement known as act which poland signed on thursday has upset many internet users across the country in the small town of lupul in alone several thousand people hit the streets fearing the treaty would allow corporations to crackdown on the freedom of speech online the idea of funding. for publishing the. marriage material. is somehow illogical to me it's like punishing the corporation that produces knifes for. being used to kill somebody that will be used to our internet activity i believe that talking through the internet email jockeying for

a form of self-expression this was yet another rally in a whole string of protests held in poland since tuesday large crowds in several cities voiced their anger at the government for signing the document most of the country's government websites were hijacked by the anonymous group they had threatened to reveal sensitive information about the authorities should they go ahead with the act there are certain countries which are very interested in. this is. this is john. and because they. truong businesses. are property laws and they want to enforce it all over the world but this doesn't mean that this is good for the people and this is why would we have this protest in poland because people feel oppressed by that essentially actor is about protecting intellectual property from music and books to pharmaceuticals and. similar in form to the stalled u.s.

bill so people that also sparked widespread protests however critics say actor was engineered in complete secrecy bypassing government procedures and the. criminal punishment it allows alerted many in the legislation must be founded in the public opinion of what's right and wrong when you have a copyright industry that's talking about extraditing a person who has done nothing but linking to t.v. shows extradition does something useful murder and genocide this is such an abuse of power i think its time is more than ripe for a serious review of what we want with copyright law and it's certainly not calling . just terrorists and. if you doubt this will happen given that prime minister to six party hold the majority in the save the government says the agreement is not

a threat to freedom but maintain the internet should not be a space of legal. but protesters say they will bring even more people to warsaw central square on friday to stop it becoming law in the space of just three days protests and phone have managed to gather tens of thousands of people and while this is still little chance that this bill would not make it through parliament the rallies unlikely to die down lets you assess the r.t. reporting from poland. by laws k. of the u.k. pirate party says the agreement is just as outrageous and harmful a similar anti-piracy legislation abandoned by lawmakers in america following mass protests there. this is part of a line along a long line of attacks on civil liberties and internet freedom the actor agreement is just right. that we've seen the the so

which was already dropped by the united states under a wave of wave of protests now the actor agreement has the potential to be just as dangerous or even more so to the very fabric of the internet and our economy so so put it it's actually going to me that there's going to be an arms an acceptable level of surveillance on all of our internet connection is essentially what this agreement turns your internet service provider into a kind of police officer and that's really one of the problems about the changes that agreement brings about it makes a copyright infringer a criminal offense which is in fact entirely new move. ahead of this school function of the year the world economic forum enters its third day as international movers and shakers continue talks about the future of the global economy. iran says it's considering cutting oil supplies to europe

preempting an e.u. embargo due to come into force in july there as lawmakers are set to debate the move already the subject of a draft bill on sunday comes after e.u. imposed sanctions in the attempt to force it back to negotiation table of its nuclear program iran's president mahmoud ahmadinejad's is ready to return to talks but its opponents need to compromise. from the campaign against sanctions and military intervention in around the country is acting to protect its sovereignty. the grace period that the vision for six months for does go to take place may actually not be that graceful so iran is taking matters into his own hands and the other issue is that it shows a complex city of feeling in domestic politics and the power that the iranian parliament holds and that is accountable to its people and it's not going to just

sit back and watch what's going to happen to the national sovereignty of the wrong there the it shows that disconnect between. his harlem and his people because this is a model is not something which is going to be to the benefit of european people and there's also a disconnect between and european governments on their parliament as well i mean it's not the most ideal situation for iran because iran has to find different consumers for costumers where it's all about at the at the same time iran is going to be to decrease this dependence on the petro dollar this is a very good thing in their lot longer and of course they rein in middle class the small businesses who would actually do business with pin businesses that are going to suffer but that is. wrong claims that that is for short term and in the long term this is actually going to lead to more independence for iran as a whole as a nation not just not just one part of the society which is investing in foreign businesses. while the u.s.

and europe continue to hit a wrong there with sanctions and strong rhetoric the suggestion of military action against the islamic republic leaves many americans cold well she's going to if you can is in the country's capital to gauge opinion. so while the obama administration says war with iran is still on the table and washington hawks come up with even harsher statements we should brace iranian regime i think within a year the majority of americans may says that their opposition to more wars which is reflected in always and polls is being ignored in washington residents of charlottesville in virginia took the matter to their city council which passed the resolution calling on the federal government to and all its wars and avoid starting a new one with iran the biggest threat right now is that we will get jackknifed into a war against iran which would be a disaster for the people of iran and for the people of charlottesville and the rest of our country david swanson is the co-author of the resolution adopted by the

charlottesville city council. for the popular will as always been against wars unless pushed in dragged by very manipulative propaganda and they have been trying those who want war on iran have been trying unsuccessfully for years to get the american people on board i went out on the street to see how many people i would meet who want the u.s. to attack iran. do you think the u.s. should attack iran no no not at all the last thing we should do well it's a terrible idea one of the worst ideas i think i have heard a while yeah that would be horrible yeah because they're good guys but because. i think another war is just a horrific idea but look on the republican side you've got certain ones over there now who want to just can't wait to get us a war it really doesn't look good at all do you think the u.s. should attack iran yes just one out of more than a dozen interviews and it's not just people on the street but many experts in the

security field warn against starting a war with iran including the former acting director of the cia people keep saying that the military option is. is still on the table i think it would be a very bad option but the latter one to use one of the big problems with iran is that if you get into. an open confrontation a military confrontation your risk a cycle of retaliation and response. with great difficulty seeing where the end point is the question one may ask is how does washington continue talking wars with so many americans against them i have a hard time thinking of any example of any issue on which the conduct of our government in washington or responds with majority opinion war is not some kind of exception the public is against bailouts for bankers the public is against subsidies for energy companies the public is against wars the public is against just about every decision made on important issues in washington the fact of the

matter is that majority of americans don't want a new wars on their plate poll showed they were opposed to u.s. involvement in libya's law but the government went about it anyway many says that the rift between what americans want and what leaders do in the name of the american people is getting larger i'm going to check our reporting from washington marty. now a total of five people were officially running russia's march presidential election the country's central election commission will confirm its shortness of kind of this competing for the top post let's get all the latest now from marty's petone of a pizza route well one of the moments russia's been waiting for i can you give us the names. well we're expected to give the next few moments that the rubber stamp will be put on that list of names that will appear on the ballot papers on the fourth of march of the presidential elections we're not expecting to be surprised as we pretty much know the five names that will be on.