a little ego bombs in there would not have been a regime change without nato bombs r.v.s. well i think you're probably right roger emotionally and your experience you know and it was very clear from what was said beside what was said selfishly it was very clear that the countries involved including the united states welcomed regime change if you look at the interviews that president obama secretary clinton and so on secretary gates at the time gave it was very clear from the beginning that in a sense the coalition would not simply abide by nine hundred seventy three implications of one thousand nine hundred seventy three but that the regime change was very much part and parcel of what is if i can collect of durga i can say with you wasn't that an abuse of the resolution resolution one hundred seventy three. well i think there are many people that argue that indeed what the coalition then they went far beyond demanded that nine hundred seventy three allowed for them and

therefore i think your question about whether the responsibility to protect still can still work is indeed a very good one libya indeed was a very unique case and part because of the language that was used by the regime and so on and so it becomes much more difficult remember in libya you had the arab league on board very early on you had the fact that russia and china were willing to abstain rather than veto nine hundred seventy three i think that becomes much more difficult in a case like syria where particularly russia has a more direct interest it doesn't make it impossible i think but the diplomatic process to get to the kind of nine hundred seventy three type of resolution that we've seen on libya will prove to be much more difficult in syria and perhaps in the end may not happen ok diana fine go to you can you tell me who the hell is the n.p.c. who are these people after all these months it's still very opaque who are they.

well you know we we know that these are people who who who were privileged and under the old regime and who decided they could be more privileged under a western style regime i think you know this thing about wanting democracy when when it seems that i enter here because there's just not to your only yes when i don't even finish i haven't said anything and you're interrupting me and i am saying there you have you said. which are simply are not true what my problem. my problem with the m.t.c. is that a lot of the. exiles that have come back and some of my actually lived in the suburbs of langley and that's my issue ok my issue is that these are western sarah gets and i saw this as a matter of fact one of the issues in libya's right now that when you talk to libyans they refer to the t.n.c. the transitional council as a government of foreigners and so i think you put your finger right on the mark

these are not cronies of gadhafi as a matter of fact most of those people have been arranged out of the t.n.c. has broadened and i'm not even if you were going to. lose a number of them were exiles. in a sense that is part of the problem and why they are not legitimate is because they really have no standing in the country at this point to make you want to jump in they're going to have to remember with the end to see that many of these are brave people who were a great risk from gadhafi when they joined the revolution of the last radical of being. about to go down anyway you want to realize what a good escape i think i mean these are people that had western backing. there now are we live you went to see them took them to paris they were not risking very much they were sitting in benghazi under western protection whatever happened to the rest of this is they were already taken care of nic this is a this is a ridiculous see this is a very very late word here for

a little guys who want to do is sort of the support were put in power by the west and if you had been in benghazi and seen the chaos of it in february march there was a spontaneous revolution and the people who stepped forward to join here and to see were completely disorganized there was no western backing for them at the beginning they call western backing later when he was under under attack actually from good from curfews time they this was so this was a revolution it wasn't a regime change the writ of revolution came first and then the western backing came well is there and it was a rebellion in our it was a rebellion that was very quickly an armed rebellion and it is quite normal for governments wherever they are to repress an armed rebellion i'm sure that would happen in the u.k. as the only i did say so anywhere else and we cannot go around the. loop

of the world supporting every single uprising in every single country no we just chose it because they don't like gadhafi and i thought this was an easy one this would there was no real armed forces as mr vandeleur have pointed out there was no real army it was a looked like a very very easy war to win and it was pretty easy although it took longer than they wanted and then afterwards there's chaos but as far as getting rid of gadhafi it looked so easy it was tempting and that's why he did larry and i don't know how they're going to point out there's a lot of oil there as well or that i can change gears really change gears here there's a lot of oh oh there's a lot of money there's a lot of there other jerk i'd like to. to you first what's a little out of reason is this and i listen now come on let me change gears we're running out of time to help a africa become and i want to change gears here and i want to go to dirk first i mean i want to look at interventions here and i'm going to include afghanistan and iraq ok and when we have regime change do you think that countries where there's

a western intervention like we have with libya we have with iraq and we have with afghanistan and then compare it to like where there wasn't and there is a regime change when we look at tunisia and egypt don't you think it's indigenous change of power there's a better chance for democracy like we have in egypt like we have in tunisia because western interventions military interventions slow it down or curb it or warp it and that's what we're seeing right now do you think that's fair. no i think that's a fair point to make i think if you have western intervention it creates inevitably and i think we will see this in libya sooner rather than later also it creates some kind of resentment and so if you can have a kind of if you want to an indigenous movement against those in power in the end i think it's tells spells greater success but we should qualify that also if we look for example at egypt where you know the rebellion was indigenous was really local

as a matter of fact we've not seen a great amount of change and egypt and it looks as if egypt in dnd to may look very much the way you did before the rebellion started a year ago so i think in principle it's right and i think certainly in libya this will turn out as said this all along to be much more of a nationalist uprising than anything else and so eventually i think. it will come to some extent haunt the west but i think you're absolutely right local is better but we haven't we should remember also a local was possible in the case of egypt and tunisia very you had a national army that could serve as a buffer between the regime and the people the point was that in libya you had no national army you had militias that stood you know i have to be has the dead were there at the behest of the gadhafi government when in libya the uprising started you truly had an implosion and what to read it was revealed was what we haven't

seen in every other country so far that there's a total vacuum of power a total vacuum of institutions that the other speakers have really talked about and that makes it much much more difficult whether that is with western intervention or without western intervention to create a modern state in libya ok ok nic i'm going to you the last word you have thirty i know that is i know you want to make please let me go to nic nic is it going to get messier in libya. well yes i think it is going to be messy i think there's going to be several years of turmoil there may be some bloodshed there may be fighting between militias but i don't think it will become a civil war and you have to remember we're talking about western intervention this is a very limited western intervention how many western troops are there in libya at the moment. ok gentlemen and lady look like you all look like your own separate militias on this program many thanks to my guest today in hanover paris and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here arche see you next time and remember prosperous. and.

you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so for like you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else you hear or see some other part of it and realize that everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm charged welcome to the big picture.

libya's new leaders face accusations of torture as doctors without borders pull out of a case study saying the same patients keep returning with new interrogation injuries . to the public politicians and hackers lash out against an international online piracy pact with resignations and rallies to stop the saidee x. a deal hitting regular internet users. and iran my cut off its oil supply to europe as early as next week to head off a looming over to iran's nuclear program. live

from our studios in central moscow you're watching archie with me and he said now it's four pm here in the russian capital thanks for being with us our top story this hour libya's new government. it is being accused of torture and abuse in detention centers but the song songs from today is disbanding its mission in misrata saying it's for pay day late treating patients for injuries sustained during interrogation with thousands of gadhafi loyalists still behind bars it's raising cain questions about the people nato helped bring to power as our trees were half a notion now reports. doctors without borders known for going do their job in the most dangerous and notorious places around the globe but in n t c iran libya the group has encountered a formidable obstacle they couldn't overcome burns from electric shocks and

cigarettes heavy bruising and renal failure all these evidence of the continue to churn of prisoners say the doctors and now off the two inmates died from the beatings the international group has stopped its mission in protest. patients were brought to us in the middle of interrogation for medical care in order to make them fit for further interrogation this is an acceptable our rule is to provide medical care to war casualties and sick detainees not to repeatedly treat the same patients between torture sessions the news comes amidst rising anger with libya's interim government demonstrations in benghazi last week ended with the resignation of a high ranking member of the m.t.c. in the former gadhafi stronghold of bani walid locals pushed out their traditional council forces claiming systematic abuse it started with the very beginning of the rebellion very beginning of the insurrection the second day of the rebellion

eighteenth of february so the african migrants were rounded up locked in a detention center and burnt to death and the n.p.c. expressed their support for this time and this is part of the strategy of the west you know divide and rule that was given the green light but the torture and execution that we're seeing now so this is a recipe for civil war meanwhile the nato operation that brought the empty seat of power is by itself raising question it's. a high profile international team of human rights activists has been to leave here to investigate some of make sure that it bears entity of where with that if you go in the friends and there were guiding the air raids and they addicting them and court again making them if you are mandated. the protective review that you are it is very very accurate

in a way that i myself saw the killing of so many people in front of more my eyes i saw the killing of fifty one people in front of my eyes was fifteen years old and while all sides in the libyan conflict are to blame for violence and violations the human rights activists claim not all of them have been held responsible for their wrongdoings investigating what happened during labor is seven months civil war and the nato campaign to protect civilians this fact the mission discovered again crimes against humanity but the goal was not to charge but to shed light on what happened and not to repeat the mistakes in recent united nations report has reviewed that up to eight thousand supporters have been held by militia groups in libya right now and with numerous occasions of torture and revenge killings throughout the country hopes of a new beginning for libya are fading quickly reef an ocean or r.t.

. now a new wave of violence in syria this time a massacre that killed thirty including children in the rest of city of homes the opposition claims loyalist forces delivered a barrage of mortar fire the u.n. security council will consider a resolution on friday supporting the arab league call to get president assad to go russia which has its own proposal at the u.n. says it won't support the western draft because if it doesn't rule out military intervention and sanctions moscow fears syria will succumb to the same fate as libya and wants to resolve the conflict through dialogue. there's further fallout from the notorious international online piracy pact that's being signed around europe french quit calling the active deal us rate in poland thousands marched in protests and even m.p. is there on the anonymous hacker groups mask to show their contempt like there is have to get reports from warsaw. with

censorship the end sorry country if you trade agreement known as act which poland signed on thursday has upset many internet users across the country in the small town of libyan alone several thousand people hit the streets fearing the treaty would allow corporations to crack down on the freedom of speech online the idea of punishing you for publishing the. marriage material. is somehow illogical to me it's like punishing the corporation that produces knifes for. being used to kill somebody like that will be used to monitor our internet activity i believe talking through the internet email forums for self expression this was yet another rally in a whole string of protests held in poland since tuesday large crowds in several cities voiced their anger at the government for signing the document most of the

country's government websites were hijacked by the. anonymous group they had threatened to reveal sensitive information about the authorities should they go ahead with the act there are certain countries which are very interested in. this is this is of america this is job. and because they. truong businesses. are property law and they want to enforce it all over the world but this doesn't mean that this is good for the people and this is why would we have this protest in poland because people feel oppressed by that essentially actor is about protecting intellectual property from music and books to pharmaceuticals and clothes similar in form to the stalled u.s. bill so people are also sparked widespread protests however critics say actor was engineered in complete secrecy bypassing government procedures and the criminal

punishment it allows alerted many in the legislation must be founded in the public opinion of what's right and wrong when you have a copyright industry that's talking about extraditing a person who has done nothing but linking to t.v. shows extradition does something useful murder and genocide this is such an abuse of power i think its time is more than ripe for a serious review of what we want with copyright law and it's certainly not calling . just terrorists. who doubt this will happen given that prime minister to six party holds the majority in the same government says the agreement is not a threat to freedom but maintained the internet should not be a space of legal. but protesters say they will bring even more people to warsaw

central square on friday to stop it becoming law in the space of just three days brooch. i have managed to gather tens of thousands of people and while there's a still little chance that this bill would not make it through parliament release i'm likely to die down. r.t. reporting from board. but despite widespread opposition from the public and politicians the bill is still expected to go to a vote at the e.u. parliament was web site was temporarily taken down by hackers in protests last k. from britain's pirate party says efforts to stop politicians adopting the deal must be kept up. under the name of dealing with copyright infringement it's actually going to mean that there's going to be an arms an acceptable level of surveillance on all of our internet connections essentially what this agreement dollars and turns your internet service provider into a kind of police officer and that's really one of the problems of the changes that

agreement brings about it makes a copyright infringement a criminal offense which is in fact entirely new movie the universe and states is continuing to push its own agenda this is been negotiated in secret behind closed doors it's time for the citizens of europe to true voice in addressing this draconian and unnecessary agreement and we'll see more protests like we've seen in this this agreement affects everyone because it's about food page and scene of seeds it's about drugs it's about your health it's also about our shared culture it's time that we start we stand up and hold our politicians to account. well a few minutes from now i'll be euro undergoes financial forensics in switzerland. the haves and have nots are gathered in this with valves to sort out

a global economy in need of repair we'll have more coming up. and five names are cleared to run for russia's top job in march we'll tell you winding up later on. iran could cut off its oil supplies to europe as early as next week and iranian m.p. signals when they could flick the switch with parliament apparently debated on sunday it's to preempt the e.u. embargo set to start july which is designed for force. to force i should say you've run into talks over its nuclear work tehran's repeatedly said in recent weeks that it's ready to do just that but the u.s. first wants iraq to prove its atomic program is peaceful nuclear expect others are due there in the coming days. from the campaign against sanctions and military intervention in iran thanks europe and the us are really interested in talks. the grace period that the vision for six months. ago to take place may actually not

be that graceful so iran is taking matters into his own hands and the other issue is that it shows the complex feeling in the midst of politics and the power that the iranian parliament holds and that is accountable to its people and it's not going to just sit back and watch what's going to happen to the national. the wrong to issues really an excuse for deepening that confrontation between iran on the list actually as the same time that is imposing does involve those on the wrong if you see that some european countries are selling more to the countries to the arab countries of the persian gulf so they are benefiting from this is iran the phobia start creating in the region so why solve the problem with negotiations why some countries are cashing in deepening the conflict already. well washington and its allies keep their options open and over iran opposition against more war is getting stronger by the day among many americans people in the state of virginia have even

issued a resolution to stop washington rolling out the military yet again that's going to count discovered it's falling on deaf ears well if you while the obama administration says its war with iran is still on the table and washington hawks come up with even harsher statements we should brace iranian regime i think within a year the majority of americans may says that their opposition to more wars which is reflected in always and polls is being ignored in washington residents of charlottesville in virginia took the matter to their city council which passed the resolution calling on the federal government to and all its wars and avoid starting a new one with iran the biggest threat right now is that we will get jackknifed into a war against iran which would be a disaster for the people of iran and for the people of charlottesville and the rest of our country david swanson is the co-author of the resolution adopted by the

charlottesville city council. a copy of the will as always been against wars unless pushed in dragged by very manipulative propaganda and they have been trying those who want war on iran have been trying unsuccessfully for years to get the american people on board i went out on the street to see how many people i would meet who want the u.s. to attack iran. do you think the u.s. should attack iran no no not at all so i think we should go it's a terrible idea one of the worst ideas i think i have heard a while yeah that would be horrible yeah because they're good guys but because. i think another war is just a horrific idea but look at all the republicans you've got certain ones over that there who want to get who just can't wait to get us in war it really doesn't look good at all. do you think the u.s. should attack iran yes just one out of more than a dozen interviews and it's not just people on the street but many experts in the

security field warn against starting a war with iran including the former acting director of the cia people keep saying that the military option this is still on the table i think it would be a very bad option but the latter one to use one of the big problems with iran is that if you get into. an open confrontation a military confrontation your risk a cycle of retaliation and response. with great difficulty seeing where the end point is the question one may ask is how does washington continue talking wars with so many americans against them i have a hard time think you know of any example of any issue on which the conduct of our government in washington corresponds with majority opinion war is not some kind of exception the public is against bailouts for bankers the public is against subsidies for energy companies the public is against wars the public is against just about every decision made on important issues in washington the fact of the

matter is that majority of americans don't want a new wars on their plate poll showed they were opposed to u.s. involvement in libya as well but the government went about it anyway many says that the rift between what americans want and what leaders do in the name of the american people is getting larger i'm going to check our reporting from washington marty. where we are keeping an eye on developments around iran and other potential worlds flashpoints at ardsley dot com and the other stories there for you too here is what's online today how one country is overhaul reverberated worldwide twenty five years after me while car parts introduced perestroika to the u.s.s.r. we assess its successes and struggles. and nature gives norway a night to remember sick. you can enjoy the show with one of the most spectacular northern mice plays in a bomb time it's all for you. on artie's you tube. well

the delegates in davos have got their money on the table today as the world economic forum assesses the dollar euro and won the struggling euro zone and future of heavily indebted greece's invited invite of the viably sorry i should say on the cards with cautious optimism and sharp criticism alike well let's get the latest marty's warrantless searches in davos and joins us live laurent how the delegates where you are proposing to pull the euro back from the brink. well we heard from a number of ministers and also from ali run who is vice president of the economic and monetary affairs for the european commission we heard them all speak today in a panel and strike an optimistic note that they believe that things will be resolved now many people would disagree with that but as far as the people on stage . and was confident that greek bondholders will come to an agreement on greek debt write downs a.