happens in the euro zone and whether or not the u.s. congress can agree on some short term solutions for the u.s. economy i thought this was quite interesting because although yes the eurozone economy very much weighs on the united states i've heard from a thai an economist for example that. the u.s. they're much more pessimistic about europe and maybe part of that is coming from the fact that it is an easy scapegoat for u.s. politicians to say oh what's going on in the u.s. is dependent on europe when the reality the u.s. has some major problems of its own a major debt overhang both private and public the fed has been very active in trying to reflate the economy but unaffected unaffected does far high unemployment more than sixteen percent for people that either don't have work or want more work you know these are some real issues that the eurozone has nothing to do it and a congress that is bitterly divided in an election year is not likely to pass much so some real concerns that are being addressed here well we're going to talk eurozone next with mr grey the filmmaker of the british newspaper the independent which we're going to be true for moscow good to see you tonight the loser was bound

to come abi did u.s. treasury secretary timothy geithner british david cameron calling for more cash the big committed to rescue the european economy we've heard that before but germany doesn't agree of course so what is the way forward do you think. well it's very difficult i don't think you have to be a whiz at math to figure out that it's not just the indebtedness of some countries with greece at the lead but also huge debts in italy much much bigger economy but also the euro zero the common currency does it is a single currency for an area where some countries need a devaluation in other words you can go on lending more money you can go on divvying up but if the economies don't get themselves more competitive with each other you've still got the problem. when you bias against the war blame someone

else i guess i mean germany's finance minister blamed david cameron for europe's failure to agree on a common plan to reduce debt even though as i take it you say it would work anyway i think it's just being made a bit of a fall guy here. i think but david cameron you know probably did not handle this diplomatically well you don't you don't use your veto if you can see hospitably avoid it but the reality is that this plan is to have a fiscal compact has so difficult is there an awful lot of the european countries that you know are going to have huge difficulty getting through their own legislators and since the euro didn't follow the last fiscal compact stability and growth wasn't why should we believe that this one will will actually stick and of course the key player here greece it's been so much trouble all along its financial troubles came up europe's top economist saying

a deal is very close of then we hear from i.m.f. chief christine lagarde she isn't very optimistic and wants athens creditors to make a better offer is going to push greece finally into default. look i don't know whether technically greece is going to be in default or not but if you're repaying thirty or forty cents in the euro your debt and the write down is going to something like that could be four to seven forty if you're lucky thirty if you're unlucky that it any rational sense is a country defaulting on its debts and whether technically that is or whether it take it seems to me to be not that relevant because once you've dealt with greece ok you try and have to put a fireball behind that but people may say look if i'm not going to get my money back on greece why should i learn to portugal why should i lend to spain why should i learn to italy good point while fitch don't seem to hold much score in the last

hour or so we're hearing that they've now just cut the scores of five euro zone states they're not very confident they can sort this out including italy and spain how is that going to undermine recovery efforts what i saw about one come through i have to say is not unexpected and they'd given a warning two or three weeks ago from memory that they might like to do this by one need to do this we've had this and fee downgrade i can't remember off the top of my head what moody's doing i think some of their already downgraded i think that a down the the agencies are actually following what the markets are doing they're not running ahead of the crucial it's going the wrong way isn't it that's what i'm saying is going is going the wrong going i think any more optimistic i mean well with all that in mind well then how long do you think investors are going to hang around waiting for europe or the u.s. for that matter to sort itself out you think sometime soon to take in more money over to china maybe instead. but in the short term in the short term the europeans

and the americans and the brits for that matter can and will print the money you can always bring down your rates in the short just printing more money you give it to the banks you tell him to go and invest it in french french new you refuse or italian or whatever and they've done that over the last three or four weeks rates have come down a little bit not for all portugal still in trouble but the trouble is you can't just print the money endlessly and i think in the in the medium term. there will have to be a much bigger explosion and you can't put you can push it along for a bit but not forever they're always comes their reckoning because they're missionary could have a program chief economic correspondent of the independent newspaper thank you. coming up on the program we'll bring it to there was more world news in brief this

time we'll go there and talk about a blast in a city funeral procession of baghdad it's killed at least thirty two people and wounded sixty five explosions struck as mourners gathered to bury a person killed a day earlier there have been more than two hundred deaths since the beginning of the year now and increasing six terror in attacks since the american troops left in december it's a grim picture there. but further to the capsized cruise ship off italy's coast is now offering passengers fourteen thousand dollars each in compensation it's also promising to refund medical and transport expenses and ironically the cost of a holiday sixteen people are confirmed dead over a dozen remain missing the ship ran aground off tuscany two weeks ago with more than four thousand people aboard. sixty kilos of cocaine have been seized the wait for it un headquarters in new york it turned up last week marked with a fake u.n. insignia and it came from mexico the global body insists neither it nor its staff were the intended recipients it's thought to be the bungled attempt by traffickers

to get drugs into the u.s. . in a few minutes an r.t. crosstalk debates why the libyan militias who overthrew colonel gadhafi won't obey their new leaders talk about that after the business with dimitri now. a warm welcome to business see the devil's economic forum is displaying signs of a split personality this year the likes of the i.m.f. david cameron and george soros warning of potential catastrophes well on the other side as a number of heavyweight industrialists who think much of the rescue work has been done among them is under a course in the head of russia's second largest bank p.t.b. . but there was a practical discussions on for example the introduction of new regulations for. banks and financial sector. capital adequacy on their lives of course it will

take maybe two to three years to implement it but at least there's not just a general debate some very practical things which now being discussed though there's still debate on the future of europe. a lot has been it's a lot of discussions already happened between the politicians and it looks now the common solution in a much closer that was one or two years ago the russian government is mulling raising taxes for business first deputy prime minister he says it should be done in a way that will boost regional development while having a minimum impact on corporate growth. you know. say please don't do this because you know. each percent you raise them it slows down the economy so to speak. so there is no you know the best recipe we tried to put this is possible you could raise. it to split and maybe. we collect

from you know create sticks will provide for the original purpose of. russia's markets ended friday's session on a negative merit as g.d.p. growth in the u.s. came in short of expectations but overall the week was very positive with the r.t.s. gave me a four point seven percent over five sessions of my sex one point one percent look at the main of movers in friday's session on the my sex is better than the market up half a percent on news of the sale of the states a seven point six percent stake is most likely to happen this year deputy chairman of russia's central bank alex to describes as the government is counting on the price of around one hundred rubles or three dollars per share energy majors are down despite strong go the oil prices and still make a m.k. also declined the market other impressed with a seventy percent production increase into. the market was generally pretty

flight after quite a strong day yesterday the market general was up about two and a half percent this week from monday almost and say four and a half percent in the last two weeks things look pretty healthy of the moment underneath general strengthening the market is some security asian people. investors appear to be selling oil and gas names and are buying more banking names with names like a sperm bank and also you know particular or even second tier banks. and so from the business team for now join us again that eight twenty am moscow time on monday we will be back with an update.

culture is that so much given to each musician on the market libyan intervention like in the specter of civil war libya's transitional way from the gadhafi regime is proving far more problematic. move. to.

the boots. the book. it's given i would no doubt he's not updating the top stories for you at half past eleven pm moscow time bomb syrian opposition fighters tighten their control of the mask it's just fifteen minutes now from the center that says the un's june. closed door talks about a resolution which backs arab league calls to get president assad go. libya's new leaders face accusations of torture as doctors without borders pull out of a decent saying the same patients keep returning but with new interrogation

injuries it's raising key questions among human rights groups about people mate who helped bring the. crowds gather outside the polish presidential palace as people take their anger to the top over the online pact which threatens regular internet users the french army pays also quit over actor. next people values crosstalk guests debate what's in store for the new libya. please. liz. you can. start. blowing welcome to cross talk i'm curious about libya intervention like in the

specter of civil war libya's transition away from the khadafi regime is proving far more problematic than nato planners had ever anticipated central civilian control is an illusion and tribal loyalty is strong it would appear it is a lot easier to take down a regime than to establish a new order. came. across not libya i'm joined by dr venter while in hanover he is an associate professor of government at dartmouth college in paris we cross to the end of jonestown she is an independent political commentator and author of fools crusade yugoslavia nato and western delusions and in london we have nick mayo he is a foreign correspondent for the sunday telegraph all right folks this is cross talk to me as you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it and i'd like to first go to diana diana is the the intervention that we saw nato undergo was it an intervention without responsibility because libya is

a mess and it's getting messier all the time and particularly in light of the last few hours a day or so of torture charges and the n.p.c. is proving to be very very inept. well that was perfectly foreseeable when you when you go in and change a regime by bombing you you're causing chaos. and they didn't seem to care that they were going to be causing chaos because they didn't like gadhafi and they seized an opportunity to get rid of leader that they didn't like figuring perhaps wrongly that anything would be more favorable since any new leaders would be grateful to them for coming to power but that definitely remains to be seen ok nic if i go to you.

i'm going to do a play on words here i mean a lot of people see there was an illegitimate use of force with the u.n. resolution one nine hundred seventy three to overthrow gadhafi and because of that it would generate use of force we see illegitimate use of force also now after the fact in libya because there is no legitimate use of force by any central government . well there is real chaos on the ground in libya at the moment it's a problem with militias as you say have been large numbers of people detained large numbers of people tortured. we think and there's there are many problems with the m.t.c. it's a very weak ministration it doesn't really have that much legitimacy there's been no proper elections yet but i think you have to remember that most libyans expected that they realized that there would be a certain amount of chaos after the fall of gadhafi this was a dictator who was in power for four decades and of course there are lots of pent up resentments there are lots of conflicts between tribes and groups and cities in

libya and there is no government at the moment to sort these problems are all nic i can stay with them you have to get into into language. of will it's not civil war yet but i think you will say anywhere anywhere near that but don't you think it's very problematic that you have western countries recognizing the n.p.c. saying this is a legitimate government in libya when the libyans themselves in have a chance to say that did anybody even ask them. well i was in bangor shortly after the revolution broke out and people were absolutely begging for nato to intervene before just before where there were also strikes because people go ahead jump into and that's the point of the program go ahead there i mean there always you were in benghazi everybody knows that benghazi is precisely where the opposition was at what months after that you had huge demonstrations in tripoli

in favor of retaining the regime or at least against the nato bombing so you can see the people there were some people that you saw that wanted this and there were others who didn't and the point is that an age old to choose to go with the ones that they knew that they were arming by the way as we find out later and that they encouraged to revolt knowing that they could get western support ok dirk why don't you go into a very very difficult to find anyone in tripoli and possibly anyone anywhere in libya. to agree with you on that of course there were large demonstrations in favor of gadhafi there were people who were being paid and. i was in a little i was in tripoli in august and pursuing they were told as well you know that. until they will remain in rotation a very very popular area it's going to turn the counter-revolution hard folks come on folks it's going to jerk and. hand over your shoulder and your fear you can call anything you can get

a bunch of thugs to where i want to say listening to you because you're very vulnerable to somewhere you know you have. the french and you have resolution i two hundred seventy three that has been accepted by the internet a lovely lady which because the resolution of this is a matter of cost i'm very careful consideration to what would need to have libya and frankly deliberations at that particular point in time remember when the libyan for a bottle be slaughtered in benghazi libya. were anxiously asking for intervention now you could argue as you know yourself for the army they are arguing don't kill to nato intervention really went to beyond what nine hundred seventy three allowed but nevertheless you have a government in place that is as i was mentioned not elected which is a problem there certainly is an enormous amount of chaos and chaos may probably deepen over the next few weeks in the next few months but overall i think the

alternative that particular as you were looking at libya and september and october and so there really was no alternative and so yes you can argue that the international community went to florida to responsibility to protect wasn't the really implemented very carefully but i think in light of the difficulties that the country faced to do west and the libyans themselves faced enormous difficulties and that in the end i think everybody agreed that the regime change was almost an inevitability well it's well intreated once you say it when she once you say that when you say there's no fly zone and we see this going on now with syria he must go then it isn't evidence all because in the west doesn't back down and it uses force here nick if i can go to you the problem here we have here right now in building a democratic state in libya and i think everyone most everyone wants that there's no state institutions should be building state institutions first before you start doing that are you putting the horse before the cart. well there's

a terrific problem. how do how do you how do you feel the government in a in a country that's really never had any experience of democracy. i have to say i was very impressed in my time on the ground in libya with the people i met i met a lot of libyans was all different sort of social backgrounds who want democracy they believe they can build some kind of democracy it will be a libyan democracy an arab democracy it will probably be quite different to the kind of democracies we have in the in the west but most people don't think it will be easy there are bigger economic problems to deal with there's this terrific militia problem there are lots of young men with weapons with no jobs for them to go to and i think a lot of the libyans i know are quite disappointed with the record of the m.t.c. so far they would like to see a government that sin has more control and certainly has more control over the over

the over the militias and i think this is becoming a problem for libya at the moment elections you bring up a very in a few make you do you have a very good point that you know the. whole that we haven't heard from the much from the iran do you know let's go to europe because he hasn't said as much you're go ahead. i mean you know the base is the basic issue is that this is a country that for forty two years under gadhafi has seen a very systematic destruction of all the kind of modern institutions that you need to really make a modern state work and so in a sense the libyans are asked to really start with a toddler as i would absolutely nothing and one of the problems is that in a sense first of all there is the issue that the t.n.c. is not truly a legitimate entity within libya but the other problem is that is a matter of timing and that is there are an enormous amount of demands being made for order for economic handouts for all the. as of things that the modern state

does and there are indeed there are not the institutions there in a sense the d.c.s. as an old modern state building experiments they're running against time and they're going to lose a lot of battles you can only hope that in the long run and particularly with the help of the united nations and so on that these institutions get created that the central government the successor to the t.n.c. is able to get what is called a wallop only of violence that it can control the territory and that eventually these institutions will be created bit by bit it's a long process the libyans were very aware of this the kind of talks of that took place at the united nations last summer for three months where the united nations was thinking very systematically about what libya needed indicated that there would be major problems and i think we're seeing that also doesn't mean that it necessarily has to end and certainly means that the process

could be prolonged and really messy go ahead diana go ahead and i think a lot of these things could have been foreseen when the bombs try are we willing to go back. may i please go back to. first of all the statement that there was no alternative at the very beginning when there were the first people heard which turned out to be propaganda. about. bombing his own people there has been pretty well this proved since then now at the very beginning there was an opportunity and there were offers from latin america from africa to mediate to find some kind of compromise to find some evolution now the fact is that colonel gadhafi was mortal like every human being his regime has lasted probably too long but was not going to last forever because. if we die all of this and perhaps there was

a way to cuba. go for evolution and evolution toward changes that would be more democratic and so on but when you come even from the outside here and i'm hundreds and you create reason to me and many to me is just downright mean to have been a dry run how are you going to bring one of those and after a short break we'll continue our discussion on libya state with r.t. . and. start. with. this month's chunks by particles that make up the fabric of the universe find

what you're looking for in the deep siberian forests prevent a fire was the help of lasers in fibers pull out your tablet of a new game in egypt and libya in future begin all of that here in dover sibierski technology update here on a larger we've got the future covered. it is easy to. see.

above. and if. you want to. welcome back to full stop i'm here and also mind you we're talking about what's going on in libya today. and it. started. ok right before we went to the break and all the mayhem you wanted to

say something so go right ahead. well our just want to take issue with what was just said about there being alternative store they actually have yes there are countries that try to start a diplomatic process you may remember that president zuma of south africa went to libya a couple of times the african union to try to intervene but remember that very systematically from the beginning gadhafi refused to negotiate the refused to consider any kind of alternative to the invasion that actually then eventually happened it was said in his defense that his son safer as lamb also try to intervene and that say for the islam could function as an intermediary but you may remember that very famous interview that's a full islam gave two days after the uprising started that he himself was threatening to shoot everyone literally like rats in a barrel as he put it was dancing on top of an s.u.v. . in his hand there really were no alternatives anybody who makes you believe that

gadhafi was willing to negotiate at that point simply does not know what the diplomatic process looked like that summer last year ok if i could change gears a little bit here next. week when you really was or he was and it's their country it's not ours and you're talking as if we have a perfect right to sit here and decide what other countries should do i disagree basically with that i don't think it's up to us to decide we're going to remember this is a resolution. of the united as a difference this is the united nations resolution and it was adopted and what the international community i had the right to protect your not only for that rather than telling the whole world what to do you just have the same old imperialist mentality that you have the right and the power because you have the power to tell other countries what to do and i basically disagree with that ok go to.