at seven thirty pm moscow time these are the top stories on our t.v. these years seeking to impose tougher economic sanctions on syria's government after failing to reduce pressure on president three u.n. draft resolution that was blocked by russia and china. and russia as foreign minister calls western reaction to the double veto indecent and hysteric go ahead of his trip to damascus aimed at finding a political solution to the ongoing crisis. also ensuring greater political

involvement for their people through the internet prime minister brooches lays out his plans to upgrade russian democracy the day after a massive pro and anti-government rallies swept the country. pressure on all fronts the greek coalition government is in deadlock over adopting new austerity measures to secure a second bailout while the e.u. says it's time for a deal is running out for them. up next on cross talk peter the veil and his gas debate over sex scotland's independence period and how realistic it might be for the nation to go it alone. welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle in search of national determination and

sovereignty this is what many scots say they want a realistic is an independent scotland would it be a viable state or is this all a ploy with the scots looking for a better deal within the e.u. . to cross scotland's potential sovereignty i'm joined by david kopel in denver he's an adjunct professor of advance constitutional law at denver university in edinburgh we have kenneth gibson he's a scottish national party politician and member of the scottish parliament and in london we crossed to william bayne he is labor m.p. for glasgow north east and shadow minister for scotland or a gentleman cross-talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want but first i'd like to go to david in denver as a constitutionally legally david what kind of case does scotland have to become a sovereign state to have to express its national determination well they have

the same right that people everywhere in the world do which is the the right to rule themselves so if the people of scotland vote in a fair referendum for independence then then that would be their right just as the people of ireland with somewhat more trouble were eventually recognised as independent and the people of taiwan wife wise have the same rights of self-determination everyone in the world has the right of self-determination i mean that doesn't mean they gave it doesn't mean they p.s.k. does that mean they get myself from a nation that doesn't mean they get self-determination does it. well the nice thing is if you're part of the united kingdom which is a. democratic nation with freedom of the press and lots of tolerance for political dissent you've got a better chance of achieving it than the people of taiwan do where the country that's trying to deny them self-determination is a rather rip asia imperialist nasty country that would invade them should they ever actually formally assert their what is there now de facto independence ok william i

don't think that you think would assess that england would invade scotland if it were if and when the looks like it's a matter of time when scotland has a referendum in two thousand and fourteen to have independence what is your attitude towards that would it be a viable state is it legal is it the right thing to do. any state can survive the question is how you prosper best and my belief is we do better within the united kingdom there are clear benefits of being part of the united kingdom's financial system provides we know who's going to regulate the banks we have a currency which is stable we have provisions for public spending which are democratic i think there are enormous disadvantages in breaking some of those institutions up just to reform them to create a new currency union which apparently is the policy of the s.n.p. but i think we also share so much history we share a welfare state yesterday m.p.'s from across the united kingdom were opposing

government cuts to disability benefits to benefits for cancer patients we share the b b c we we have a great influence in the world pearman and membership of the un security council these are great advantages that mean being part of the union and being part of britain is good for scotland ok ken if i go to you i mean i guess really the glue the real question for you is this god is that you know you want independence so that's why it's a good opening close case right i mean we just heard from david about a self-determination william says that you have a mutual benefit but the scots have a voice so what do they want to go their own way and will they go their own way. we do have a voice and over the next thirty three months who better to kill eating the arguments for independent spirit scholars who in history some traditions its own culture and we see no reason why scorn cannot be as prosperous an independent nation as for example norway the netherlands denmark so many other countries in europe which are

relatively small in terms of population but are democratic have a high quality of life and a high standard of living and under the. party after thirteen years of the rule the gap between the twenty percent richest and to a percent putus was a way to stay in the we see diesel i thing we can do a better job in scoring will vote on resources and then what's important is that we will take decisions for themselves and you know. so far as we know we know the see increased every year go ahead william here kenneth child poverty has increased well examined has been in government it's gone up every single year the economy is growing less of less quickly in scotland in the last four years than the u.k. average and before that where there was a labor administration holiday grew more quickly so i think the picture is a bit more closely that's frankly issued as a slight you know this is an eating. well look at the figures and i'm sure you i'm sure the viewers will be able to judge the figures from themselves they're publicly

available but let's let's look at this issue the last five years has been that anyone likes of course the u.k. only once in the last five years been an economic. growth so there's still a lot to be lower in scotland than the u.k. average but those those figures are going to be the supplement ok gentlemen i'm going to jump in one of the reasons why so many gentlemen let me jump in here david i guess is the interlopers here ok this is look like these two people should be together because look at all of the different the. well despite some and some important differences they have what's sort of sad for me as an outsider is is how how much they have been in common when we heard. professor bane talk about what's what's so great about being part of the united kingdom he talks about the b.b.c. and the welfare state doesn't even mention the great history of great britain as the country that spread freedom in so many places in the world and including saving

civilization from hitler both of them are talking about the welfare state and what i think they've both failed to realise and they're there are reasonable the they're good representatives of the labor party and of the scottish national party which are both more or less socialist parties and have woken up to the fact that they've run out of other people's money and that if they're trying to make this issue about self-determination for the scottish people about who's going to more effectively fleece a to give money to be what i what i would wish they would both be talking about that is completely new this is an issue of scottish independence and i know you're sort of rowing about but don't anyone have what about the people of scotland right now why why is neither of you talking about things that could bring more self-determination to the scottish people right now like letting them elect police boards the health boards have direct votes on self government. actually and all i know a letter is like they'll have this is going to tell you where i want william to jump

in go ahead william in london go ahead ok the key issue i think is growth i mean what we need to collectively as a group of political parties is come up with policies that are going to break away from the sort of get rich quick of capitalism that we've seen in too many countries in the g twenty and across the world in favor of a longer chairman investment in many ways our economy needs become rather more like germany's we need to invest for the long term we are arguing for a state investment bank that would be able to get investment into the green industries and to tourism and to other sectors i think we've got to change our whole model of growth and i think we do that based within the united kingdom rather than going through the expense and the trauma of said. a separate state so i think that is the key response i would have to david's point i think the way that we will empower the scottish people is to open economy that works better for them that produces more jobs and will secure more social justice as a result ok ken if there's a big argument it seems to think i'd like to ask you there's

a big argument in this there's a big argument in this debate is that the scots have to be cognizant insensitive to the the sensibilities of the of the wellsian of the english of the irish do you think that's fair i mean it's incumbent upon you to convince your fellow members in the union that you want to go on your own way or do you think it's just a matter of a democratic process where you have the right to vote and you vote on independence . well i think the issue which the united nations recognize is up to scottish people decide their own future but we are the first ones that has tried to reach out to other parts of the need to make it clear and independent school and very good friend to england northern ireland and wales and indeed other countries in europe we have no enemies in the world we are not a country that seeks conflict with anyone because the thing about the independence struggle in scotland is there's never even been so much as a news bleed and i may disagree on many of the points but the argument is done through the democratic process and democratic channels and we want strong to be independent so that we can attract and with investment but also there doesn't seem

really nice he thinks london was best for what's in schools interest we think the people of scotland know best and just as you wouldn't want your next door neighbor taking decisions on your behalf we do one angle and even with the best will in the world decisions on behalf of scotland and this remember is an incorporating union it's not a union of equals scotland is very much a subordinate partner we have less than a tenth of england's population and decisions political decisions are all you need on behalf of the majority within you key england and scotland basically if we make those decisions on our selves those decisions will ultimately be better for scotland whether it's a government which is left of center as a professor seems to imagine or indeed one which i believe would have two issues one that supports a mixed economy and is more social democratic rather than socialist william why not have two united kingdom us as leaders as neighbors ok as equals that is you know you can it was pointing out why can't you have that you can still have the same currency if you don't throw it out throw them out of the the pound you have the

same queen scotland pays for the defense issues why not equals. well i think this is a false point i mean i think that the key issue is precisely what you mentioned the economy i mean let's consider what alex salmond is proposing here his preference is for a currency union with the united kingdom now we can see across across the sea another carnes here in the year rule and we know what chancellor merkel last week said that for a proper currency union you need to have fiscal union taxes and spending being coordinated across the different countries within the union you also need fiscal political union and she also said that you need a common treasury and know what is being discussed today by the n.c.a.a. agrees with this is easily one of the better willy's basin i think of england well . caney well i think the cd you think should be in charge in europe is that we're saying well let's you know i mean that's what i would hope that i would hope that we have more stronger so it would be seen as

a half of the you have an art and in germany and this is an end drawing up the fiscal rules of europe as i hope that francois roll on if he wins the french presidential election this me will do but the reality is that what we've seen in the in the eurozone are very harsh and fierce fiscal rules and the fact is if alex salmond wins this referendum he would be doing a deal to drop similar fiscal rules with george osborne it doesn't sound much like independence from a tory tax and spend policy to me nor indeed think it would be for the scottish people as cases no instance because the bank of scotland has been independent the chancellor says nine hundred ninety seven and did it even in previous generations when will file and under still your go independents who are still part of sterling for many years if it was originally a jump in here gentlemen we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the fate of scott stay with our.

well see british science. is not on trial for. the.

markets finance scandal. find out what's really happening to the global economy is a report on our t.v. . critic. welcome back to talk i'm curious about remind you we're talking about the independence of scotland. ok. ok david if i go back to you in denver and a recent poll how gives the the following numbers fifty two percent to thirty two percent english voters favored maximum devolution from scotland or independents a bigger margin of support then the s. and p. s.n.p. in scotland itself i mean it's really interesting it seems we're having talking

about it leads right here in many ways a lot of it one and one trend that is really moving in the u.k. is that the english are feeling more english and less british at least that's what some data is showing i mean is it a matter of and leaps and institutions that want to keep this together and devoid to what people actually think. well i think that if the opinion polls within scotland itself ok fair to show that there's very strong very strong support for even for more devolution more more scottish home rule but probably for independents per se that only gets about a third of the support of the population which is one of the reasons why alex salmond is trying to change the voting rules to have sixteen and seventeen year olds vote but i note that the it is still all about elites this argument because it's a question of whether you can have central planners in london or an edinburgh running the lives of all the people in scotland i noticed that the two other guests didn't want to talk about my suggestion that the scots could have much more home rule

right now by letting them elect the important officials in their local governments that control their health care and the police both of these gentlemen are also for keeping scotland in the european union which is an institution which has a tremendous democratic deficit it has no legitimacy unlike say the united states constitution where our states joined together to make a true national union that was done by the people themselves acting in the conventions were as in scale the european union has been this project ever since john boehner started back in the olden days of jamming having elites jam it down on the public and they're all the elites have been consistently terrified of allowing referendums how about our scottish national party friend if this scotland achieves independence will you allow the people of scotland to vote on whether to stay in the european union and ask our labor party friend why not let the people of scotland vote on that and why not let the people of the united kingdom as

a whole vote on that why should laws be made in brussels that apply to people in the united kingdom or in scotland if it's independent when the people of scotland in the united kingdom have never consented to surrender their sovereignty to a bunch of bureaucrats in brussels ok or i can. you want to go you want to answer one of those questions or both is a completely separate to be i mean some of the things i've been mentioned here are complete annoyance and simulate to please i've been in politics thirty three years six to sixteen of those in the late to do it resent it and never had a single person come to me ask me for a lot to beating forward didn't seem to think i should be a focus of a political party i joined the s.n.p. because i want to go on to an equal nation among all of them to see the united nations on an equal police and european union in terms of related health boards were brought in a couple years ago i don't know where the professor's been i don't know if he's keeping in touch but talking about central planning. a new political party in the u.k. is in favor of central planning as he puts it all the countries all the political

parties are active in parliament and westminster and indeed holyrood actually believe in the mixed economy to one degree or another so i think it professor is completely out of touch with viewpoint on these issues in terms of the european union i think it's preposterous to suggest that if you're in europe somehow you know independent france notably did not send troops to iraq and independent scotland if we'd been in power would not have done so that's real independence not having nuclear weapons on your soil the decision not to have them is real independence having control over taxation your social security system pain sions you know that is independence of having our all and in the world i mean does he see the silly seriously think we're going to suggest or have somebody to police commissioners or goldman give our. people who is this guy gone we're going to william william i view it anyway william here what about how i ask the reverse of our show here is when you know themselves are not so wound up about this issue i

mean obviously the scots are but there's a lot of it i wouldn't say indifference but it's not an issue that you have fire in your belly about or maybe i'm wrong ok i mean the average englishman is not overly worried about scotland staying in the united kingdom. i think there is a sense in england of more particular english identity when i attended a really interesting discussion which the institute for public policy research organized into this the same last last week but i think there is great support for the united kingdom staying together still in terms of the e.u. i mean i must disagree i mean i think there are. three and a half million jobs that depend on us having a positive relationship with the e.u. one of the benefits that we have of being part of britain is that our relationship with the e.u. is stable and secure there is a great legal way it will in one hundred people with. an independent scotland claim with an independent is going to magically state it would have to rebut it would an

independent council employees how it would have to be a member of the european union i would imagine it was a re exception process and why it's already in it there's a huge downside it's already huge doubt about that it's already in the euro i mean a lot of you look at a work on the high and very high and book of scottish independence by joseph martins he expresses if you look at who they are here's how it was one of the s.n.p. has favor economists well i'm surprised you're one of the first ministers favorite color missy relies on them to back a bit ahead of you so i do not innocent and that's always said that salacious time is you mentioned i've never had it i've never seen it ok what is completely you know is you can argue. the stage of the by you can become saluted by a copy today then it can it would well if you. name the interior some part of the european union all right croatia is showing up to go into the single currency as part as conditions for entry latvia is joining the euro we haven't already seen that is the possibility we're not in the possibility they're going through

a recession process you lose the u.k. octo and in principle in the end you have to sign up as being part of the year i don't think i'll be in scotland ok david what do you think about the rubbish ok i'll go to you can i get the scottish people vote on this but aren't you already in the county and you're. already in the european union why would they have to re reply they are getting every voter that the scottish people devore voted on that professor baines rense a very good as a law when i was a law professor was a voluntary scholarship in criticizing the concept cross of the trust of emotion displayed as the city had to say yes the prisoners of war can rule people without their consent for their supposed that own good why are the scottish people are good enough to vote on whether they're going to be ruled from london why don't they have the right to vote on whether they're going to be ruled from brussels nobody has ever asked them to vote on that what are rightly these are issues and you did a. poll and the. it was one nine hundred seventy five katie and you know these issues are decided it's learned was the parties who stand their parties who

stand who want to take britain out of the european union and they are humiliated to every single general election that happens so i think the vast majority of the british people want to stay within the european union we do have to reform the e.u. look you're right it does have become more democratic we have to look at strange thing there was somebody in the room how is this going to relate to any pieces ok go ahead jump in with scala needs a voice still needs a voice in the european units preposterous but luxembourg which is aligned as it through is able to send someone to the council of ministers to talk about and strong is a huge fishing industry and yet we're not going to be delayed presented and to suggest really that scotland would be an exception to the scene we can easy you can see is a tiny nonsenses professor milnor well can he sailed honestly that karajan twenty five years ago william guy had an e.t.s. can't you ought to look you ought to look at what the head of the scottish

fisherman's federation betty armstrong has been saying in the last twenty four hours he has said that he's warned and find that scotland going independent would mean that we would have fewer votes in the european council to discuss fisheries much those than estonia you've got the fishing industry worried about our lack of and. we how these european you know voice and the more we all seem to be able to install the united kingdom through the usa i think it will still be there well when the tories win a tory saying it is up to you but i joined this old scottish fellow fashion industry for will remember. tell me just let me be here when you surely know. i was just glad if you're hearing me and is signing up to the common fisheries policy case i want to talk about the ocean anymore so i don't want to talk about an issue any more i want to talk about the facia of the european union david thank go to you ok we have this issue with scotland we have an issue also in belgium where we have. a fragile state to say the least here what is the future we're going to

see more states with with what we see is the european union and we are going to fragment even more and is that a good idea but maybe it is a good idea because it might be more democratic as you pointed out. well but putting aside whether we say split belgium in half and then we can divide antwerpen in half again to sort of recreate the previous division of germany able to a belgian version i think the e.u. has some long some short term stability problems because greece among others it was well known to the euro kratz that the greece find great financial figures when greek came into the e.u. were absolute frauds and that the greek system was not sustainable and then finally the rest of the world has found that out and now you have the question about whether they're going to try to force ultimately the european central bank and the taxpayers of scotland and germany and the rest of the europe to bail out this praful get irresponsible great government that has led the country to ruin so i'm

surprised that both jane are so determined about how they are going to keep scotland in the european union one way or another when this is an institution which in its free trade side has been very good i would say for all of europe but is based on lies and fraud about the financial conditions of these welfare countries like greece which exist only because the workers in other countries have to work even harder so they can bail out the government workers in greece but i'm going to we're almost out of time we're almost out of time but if i want to go do you keep you're going to be forgiving people will the referendum pass in two thousand and fourteen and will scotland be any i think i'm sorry seven independence has been forty seven independence referendums i don't know what else is nineteen forty five forty two having been won by the party of independence because people want to vote for something positive and on something negative of the five that were lost and montenegro in malta what independence subsequently

a few years later i believe twenty years from now we're wondering all the fuss was about the fifty one members the united nations and one nine hundred forty. no one hundred ninety three we want school to be one hundred ninety four simply all one will be a chair in the general assembly for you many thanks to my guest today in denver edinburgh and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember. the in. the. morning news today. games flared up. these are the images the world is seeing

from the streets of canada. trying to corporations or the day.