and finally we just have a little bit of time left but i've got to say you know there you turn on any station and there's a discussion about iran and there are some people who say that war with iran is not only imminent that is actually a good idea critics of the critics say iran doesn't have that much conventional military capability and wouldn't be able to retaliate other than with their oil so might as well strike them what's your response to this sort of way of thinking there are seventy million people that live in the islamic republic of iran and i'm afraid there is a very carefully a sentiment in the world where people are stuck about things like we're not going to attack you know you know as if there is a sort of god view available to certain people about the killing of others when seventy eight million people are held hostage like this i find it unforgivable it's a very uncivil is the way to approach questions of diplomacy and international relations i have no respect for people who talk so you know simply and easily about

the killing of the people i think that the lost control of their own rationality i think that's a really good point unfortunately in this era of twenty four hour cable networks a lot of times where you just hear is a ten second sound bite a lot of them sort of fear mongering and that's what's being put out there right now i always appreciate your insight the different shod director of international studies at trinity college thank you. well also surrounds a day today an increasingly tense and violent situation in syria over the weekend a u.n. security council met to vote on a draft resolution condemning the syrian government's violent crackdown and also urging syrian president bashar al assad to step down now within the country itself there have been deadly clashes on both sides and western leaders have criticized the decision by moscow and beijing not to cooperate here is a response by u.s. ambassador susan rice mr president. the united states is disgusted

that a couple members of this council continue to prevent us from fulfilling our sole purpose here addressing an ever deepening crisis in syria and a growing threat to regional peace and security for months this council has been held hostage by a couple members we also heard from secretary of state hillary clinton she called the unwillingness a travesty pointing to an event a few days ago in which to as many as two hundred people were killed by syrian forces in the city of horns now also today of the united states closed its embassy in damascus citing security concerns are to correspond on a stasia churkin to has been following this process and is in new york right now which had some more light on this and as i say a let's talk about a few different aspects of this i've seen u.n. ambassador susan rice today on all the cable networks sort of giving her take on exactly what happened and one of the things that i've been reading in various

places is one of the main reasons that russia decided not to sign on to this resolution that they vetoed it was because they have economic interests and ties in their arms dealings with syria talk a little bit about this criticism. well christine definitely that's a very popular war and trying to find put the blame on russia are not supporting this resolution the west has been very kind of excited and eager to talk about the fact that russia doesn't fact have certain deals with syria but russia has been saying this entire time you guys are just using this as an excuse to put some sort of blame on us because these deals have existed for a very long time they are not against international law by any means they're not using being used by anybody on the ground in this particular crisis and russia has the legal duty to carry out its obligations with its contracts with other countries and interestingly the russian ambassador to the u.n. has also said that it's quite interesting to see that hearing this from

a country that pumps hundreds of thousands of dollars into the middle the middle east namely in terms of arms and different military devices as well so it's just really an example of double standards and russia also reiterated that there have been many times before where russia supported texts and resolutions at the united nations even though those stood against its economic interests when they were in fact rational ones and you know as you say honest us here russia has been very vocal about their position on this from the get go but with a lot of people were surprised about was to find out that china in fact also veto this resolution they've sort of more quietly been against this any idea where this change of heart came from. and change of heart in terms of china's position because i mean china has been supporting russia's stance on this all along and it's just been a little less vocal than russia in this particular case yeah that's what i meant

they just sort of have coming out in vetoing it they've definitely made their stance that much more now and let's move on to. kind of what this means in general what's next there's a lot of talk about what the next steps are for the u.s. and other western leaders who want to see something done in syria and want to see it done now well christine you know that's definitely one of the most important and complicated questions people are asking themselves right now because right now what we have going on is this chaos these emotions when we're hearing the west used. words like travesty and discussed and betraying the syrian people and russia and china will have to bear the full responsibility of the massacre on the ground so really all these passions flying we do know that russia will be the russian foreign minister sergei lavrov will be in damascus syria tomorrow with russia's chief intelligence officer to try to conduct talks on the ground whereas what we know the u.s. and the e.u.

are up to right now is trying to find ways to come up with regional and national sanctions so while what's going to happen we'll have to wait and see russia's been calling for talks from the syrian government on the opposition this entire time but it's also been quite surprised to see the reaction of the west when it comes to this veto because it's been saying even before the veto took place the vote took place that it would not support this text that promotes regime change and that it was calling for a few extra days of negotiations before the vote took place and it's just been sad to russia to see that this kind of surprising reaction take a listen to what the russian foreign minister said on this. your clue is that the western comments on the outcome of the un security council vote on syria sound indecent and almost hysterical in this connection i can't remember the saying that those who are angry are really right swifties to recall statements attempts are being made to create a full picture of what is really going on in syria and what's really happening is

that there are several and not just one sources violence in syria should news now russia said that it had been proposing some amendments that did not get reflected in the text that it quote calls absolutely logical that the west ignored those calls included of course outlining that two sides of the conflict exist and things like the need for the political opposition to separate from the extremists and talks being the key whereas what was pushed through by the west and the arab league did not reflect those things so why are why is the international community surprised that this is what russia did it was clear about its position all along all right in new york city r.t. correspondent ana stasia churkin i am for the very latest on the un security council meeting and debate over syria you can follow on a southie on twitter at last year. well these two people are dead after a major military offensive on the western syrian city of homes over the weekend

while the country's opposition blames bashar al assad for the assault the regime climbs the attacks were provoked hearty sara for of has more from damascus syria. and social networking sites have for the past ten months been one of the activists the means of offering the world glimpses of the violence this tool in three syrian activist groups reports how we got the brick through and we've just seen pictures which the b.b.c. called verify the same many differing numbers and reports getting to the bottom of what's really going on is a major challenge even from inside the country. the people here think. you're right it is a. head of the un security council showdown this weekend and the violence in syria seemed to reach fever pitch with activists reporting a massacre in homs that was all over the headlines and watched with horror by

people worldwide initially the death toll that night was put over two hundred and say there could be as many as two hundred just in the last hour two part of that was laid to significantly downgraded strict access policies they have made it difficult for many foreign networks to get their correspondents into the country to collect evidence at the end of last year i leveled this criticism at the foreign minister's spokesman we have never been in the media by the way. because objectivity we've been filtering you how can you justify for instance you on the people relying on you to. in broadcasting one side even though or even on you tube you have also atrocity committed by the elements it's true that to a large extent mainstream coverage of the pro-government can has been pretty spun this graphic video appears to show

a regime. being hanged with really clear picture of exactly what's happening in syria right now hard to know what the western allies that the un basing their assertions which is not really about genuine concern for human rights and democracy this is all about regime change dissatisfied with the wording of the resolution russia and china vetoed the latest proposal many felt it contained disturbing a case of libya russia and china believed to do right than the foreign military intervention as a conflict between the two sides as the crisis in syria has becoming increasingly internationalized but any measures imposed from a well to try to put an end to the violence are going to have to be very careful not to make the same mistakes made in libya they seem to be backing one side increasingly looking like. so. that must be syria. i measured it to turn into me along and show what's coming up in just

a half hour tonight along will tell you all about a new report from the bureau of investigative journalism showing damning evidence that u.s. drone strikes in pakistan. show us marcy wheeler if questioning the u.s. drone program makes you a terrorist sympathizer and later i want to give you an update on the trial of private first class bradley manning the alleged wiki leaks or and for us that's going to do it for now but for more on the stories we covered go to our team dot com slash usa also check out our youtube page it's youtube dot com slash r t america you can also follow me on twitter at christine for us out we'll be back here in an hour and a half. welcome

to the capital account i'm lori mr. culture is the same of shark in colorado the tournaments i was told were the censorship from a nation and sovereignty this is what many scots say they want a realistic is an independent scotland would appeal for.

science technology innovation all the rest of elements around russia we've got the future are covered. welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle in search of national determination and sovereignty this is what many scots say they want a realistic is an independent scotland would it be a viable state or is this all a ploy with the scots looking for a better deal within the e.u. . to cross scotland's potential sovereignty i'm joined by david kopel in denver he's an adjunct professor of advance constitutional law at denver university in edinburgh we have kenneth gibson he's

a scottish national party politician and member of the scottish parliament and in london we crossed to william he is labor m.p. for glasgow north east and shadow minister for scotland tory gentlemen cross-talk rules and effect that means you can jump in anytime you want but first of all to go to david in denver as a constitutionally legally david what kind of case does scotland have to become a sovereign state to have to express its national determination. well they have the same right that people everywhere in the world do which is the the right to rule themselves so if the people of scotland vote in a fair referendum for independence then then that would be their right just as the people of ireland with somewhat more trouble were eventually recognised as independent and the people of taiwan white boys have the same rights of self-determination everyone in the world has the right of self-determination i mean that doesn't mean they gave it doesn't mean. i'm

a nation that doesn't mean they get self-determination does it. well the nice thing is if you're part of the united kingdom which is a. democratic nation with freedom of the press and lots of tolerance for political dissent you've got a better chance of achieving it than the people of taiwan do where the country that's trying to deny them self-determination is a rather rip asia imperialist nasty country that would invade them should they ever actually formally assert their what is there now de facto independence ok william i don't think that you think would assess that england would invade scotland if it were if and when the looks like it's a matter of time when scotland has a referendum in two thousand and fourteen to have independence what is your attitude towards that would it be a viable state is it legal is it the right thing to do. any state can survive the question is how you prosper best and my belief is we do that better within the united kingdom there are clear benefits of being part of the united kingdom's

financial system provides we know who's going to regulate the banks we have a currency which is stable we have provisions for public spending which are democratic i think there are enormous disadvantages in breaking some of those institutions up just to reform them to create a new currency union which apparently is the policy of the s.n.p. but i think we also share so much history we share welfare state yesterday m.p.'s from across the united kingdom were opposing government cuts to disability benefits to benefits for cancer patients we share the b b c we have a great influence in the world pearman and membership of the un security council these are great advantages that mean being part of the union and being part of britain is good for scotland ok ken if i go to you i mean i guess really the glue the real question for you as a scot is that you know you want independence so that's why it's a good opening close case right i mean we just heard from david about

self-determination william says that you have a mutual benefit but the scots have a voice so what do they want to go their own way and will they go their own way. we do have a voice and over the next thirty three months we will take you eating the arguments for independent spirit scholars it's all in history its own traditions its own culture and we see no reason why scotland cannot be as prosperous an independent nation as for example norway the netherlands denmark so many other countries in europe which are relatively small in terms of population but are democratic have a high quality of life and a high standard of living and under the. party after thirteen years of the rule the gap between a twenty percent richest and to a percent purist was a way to stay in the we see diesel i think we can do a better job scoring will of our own resources and then what's important is that we will take decisions for ourselves and you know not. so far as we know all we know

is an aegis oversea increased every year go ahead william here kenneth child poverty has increased well examined has been in government it's gone up every single year the economy is growing less for less quickly in scotland in the last four years than the u.k. average and before that when there was a labor administration holy grew more quickly so i think the picture is a bit more closely that's likely issues aside i mean this is an eating. well look at the figures and i'm sure i'm sure the viewers will be able to judge the figures from themselves they're publicly available but let's let's look at this issue the last five years ago it was one that anyone thinks of plus the u.k. only once in the last five years of an economic. growth you know there's too many losses will be lower in scotland than the u.k. average those figures are going to be the government ok gentlemen i'm going to jump in with your reasons why dismantle gentlemen let me jump in here david i guess is what is the interlopers here ok this is look like these two people should be together because look at all of the different the. well despite some is some

important differences they have what's sort of sad for me as an outsider it is is how much they haven't in common when we heard. professor bain talk about what's what's so great about being part of the united kingdom he talks about the b.b.c. and the welfare state doesn't even mention the great history of great britain as the country that spread freedom in so many places in the world and including saving civilization from hitler both of them were talking about the welfare state and what i think they both failed to realise and they were there are reasonable the there are good representatives of the labor party and of the scottish national party which are both more or less socialist parties and have woken up to the fact that they've run out of other people's money and that if they're trying to make this issue about self-determination for the scottish people about who is going to more effectively fleece a to give money to be what i what i would wish they would both be talking about

that is completely new and this is an issue of scottish you know and i know the way he's going about but don't anyone have what about the people of scotland right now why why is neither of you talking about things that could bring more self-determination to the scottish people right now like letting them elect police boards the health boards have direct votes on self government. actually there all i know it literally is like they'll have this is i'm going to write i will you to jump in go ahead william in london go ahead ok the key issue i think is growth i mean what we need to collectively as a group of political parties is come up with policies that are going to break away from this sort of get rich quick mordor of capitalism that we've seen in too many countries in the g twenty and across the world in favor of a longer term investment in many ways our economies become rather more like germany's we need to invest for the long term we are arguing for a state investment bank that would be able to get investment into the green

industries and to tourism and to other sectors i think we've got to change our whole model of growth and i think we do that best within the united kingdom rather than going through the expense and the trauma of setting up a separate state so i think that is the key response i would have to david's point i think the way that we will empower the scottish people is to an economy that works better for them that produces more jobs and more secure more social justice as a result ok ken if there's a big argument and it seems to think i'd like to ask you there's a big argument in this there's a big argument in this debate is that the scots have to be cognizant insensitive to the the sensibilities of the of the welsh and of the english of the irish do you think that's fair i mean it's incumbent upon you to convince your fellow members in the union that you want to go on your own way or do you think it's just a matter of a democratic process where you have the right to vote and you vote on independence . well i think the issue which the united nations recognize is up to scottish people decide their own future but we are the first ones that has tried to reach

out to other parts of the need to make it clear and independent school and very good friend to england northern ireland and wales and indeed other countries in europe we have no enemies in the world we are not a country that seeks conflict with anyone the great thing about the independence struggle in scotland is there's never even been so much as a nosebleed and i may disagree on many of the points but the argument is done through the democratic process and democratic channels and we want it strong to be independent so that we can attract and would investment but also the difference in really nice he thinks london news best for what's in schools interest we think the people of scotland know best and just as you wouldn't want your next door neighbor taking decisions on your behalf we do one angle and even with the best will in the world decisions on behalf of scotland and this remember is an incorporating you know it's not a union of equals scotland is very much a subordinate partner we have less than a tenth of english population and decisions political decisions are all you need on behalf of the majority within you key england and scotland basically if we make

those decisions on our selves those decisions will ultimately be better for scotland whether it's a government which is left of center as a professor seems to imagine or indeed one which i believe would one that supports a mixed economy and is more social democratic rather than socialist william why not have two united kingdom as neighbors ok as equals it is you know it can it was pointing out why can't you have that you can still have the same currency if you don't throw it out throw them out of the the pound you have the same queen scotland pays for the defense issues why not equals. well i think that's a false point i mean i think that the key issue is precisely what you mentioned the economy i mean let's consider what alex salmond is proposing here his preference is for a currency union with the united kingdom now we can see across across the sea another carnes here in the europe and we know what chancellor merkel last week said that free proper currency union you need to have fiscal union taxes and spending been

coordinated across the different countries within the union you also need fiscal and political union and she also said that you need a common treasury and know what is being discussed today by the n.c.a.a. agrees with this is easily one of the better willy's basin i think of england oh. well as things a cd you think should be in charge is that we're saying well let's you know i mean that's what i would hope that i would hope that we have more so join us as a half of the government and germany and this is an end drawing up the fiscal rules of europe as i hope that francois roll on if he wins the french presidential election this me will do but the reality is that what we've seen in the in the eurozone are very harsh and fierce fiscal rules and the fact is if i examine wins this referendum he would be doing a deal to drop similar fiscal rules with george osborne it doesn't sound much like a independence from a tory tax and spend policy to me nor indeed think it would be for the scottish

people. this is nonsense because the bank of scotland has been independent the chances in one thousand nine hundred seven and did it even in previous generations are in the file and under still year ago independence they were still part of sterling for many years that i was going to run away and jump in here gentlemen we're going to go to one short break and after that short break we'll continue or our discussion on the fate of scott stayed with. him. but i. was struck with the idea of australia if you will to use them in the early ninety's so you get to among the trees if you want to have sex go and

have sex. wealthy british style. is not on. market why not come to. find out what's really happening to the global economy with mike's cause or for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune into cars a report on our.

if you. still. want to. welcome back to mars i'm you know about to remind you we're talking about the independence of scotland. ok. ok david if i go back to you in denver and a recent poll gives the the following numbers fifty two percent to thirty two

percent english voters favored maximum devolution from scotland or independents a bigger margin of support then the s. and p. s.n.p. in scotland itself i mean it's really interesting it seems we're having talking about it leads right here in many ways a lot of it one and one trend that is really moving in the u.k. is that the english are feeling more english and less british at least that's what some data is showing i mean is it a matter of at leats and institutions that want to keep this together and devoid to what people actually think. well i think that the opinion polls within scotland itself ok fair to show that there's very strong very strong support for even for more devolution more more scottish home rule but probably for independents per say that it only gets about a third of the support of the population which is one of the reasons why. is trying to change the voting rules to have sixteen and seventeen year olds vote but i note that the it is still all about elites this argument because it's

a question of whether you're going to have central planners in london or an edinburgh running the lives of all the people in scotland i noticed that the two other guests didn't want to talk about my suggestion that the scots could have a much more home rule right now by letting them elect the important officials in their local governments that control their health care and the police both of these gentlemen are also for keeping scotland in the european union which is an institution which has a tremendous democratic deficit it has no legitimacy unlike say the united states constitution where our states joined together to make a true national union that was done by the people themselves acting in the conventions were as in scale the european union has been this project ever since john monet started back in the olden days of jamming having elites jam it down on the public and they're all the elites have been consistently terrified of allowing referendums how about our scottish now.