seventeen hundreds was i don't recall the year and i'm guessing you may. basically laid down a legal principle that established for several hundred years literally up until nine hundred eighty in the united states that it was legal for a man to rape his wife. can you tell us about that and what does that have to do with the modern conservative or the historic really the you know three centuries of conservative movement. well i just a small but also large correction it actually wasn't hume it was a jurist by the last name of hale actually. yes yes you're right and and he didn't like hale either i'm sorry nixon. ok yeah i didn't i didn't want to lay that on poor david hume's tombstone. but matthew hale was a jurist and he came up with a doctrine about that involved the question of sexual consent in the marriage and

the doctrine that he formulated and it proved to be extraordinarily influential and as you said lasted for many centuries was that essentially when a woman consents to marry a man and she has to consent to that it's very important that she does consent to that that she's essentially consenting to give him sexual access to her body not just at that very moment but for the for the property of their marriage and this became a notion of basically it was called implicit consent so that throughout a marriage if a husband or a man ever wanted to have sex with his wife he essentially did not have to get her say so he could have it and therefore if he raped her by definition it wasn't rape because she had given her consent at the moment when she consented to be married and what's you know what's astonishing about that argument is not just the argument itself but what's really is that it lasts and endures as

a principle of common law in the united states up until the one nine hundred eighty s. in the book i cite a legal textbook in the one nine hundred fifty seven i believe it was and i remember one nine hundred fifty seven that is the heyday of the warren court and when we think of the triumph of the modern liberal jurisprudence in one nine hundred fifty seven a textbook would say that basically a man legally cannot be held to have raped his wife because of this principle and it took an extraordinarily long time and again it was an intel about the one nine hundred eighty s. that legislatures and courts began overturning this principle now the reason why this matters and the reason i talk about it in my book. it is because it points to the persistence of these private forms of domination in what we call the private sphere of the family or the workplace and that it has been the job of the left in this country and elsewhere to try to use the power of the state to overturn these

private relations of domination and these have been extraordinarily ferocious struggles that have prompted the resistance of husbands of employers of slave holders and that conservatism is really the theoretical voice of that resistance to these movements and again you see this in burke when burke looks the french revolution he sees many things but one of the things he sees in the french revolution is this effort by commoners to overturn the power of their superiors in the private sphere and he predicts that the french revolution is going to him and lead to the revolution of the slaves in haiti which of course eventually did and so on and so forth and so i think in the end that's really the struggle between the left and the right it's whether or not people in their private life are going to be able to live lives of equality or not and the left has tried to make

that the case and the right has always consistently resisted that effort and i think probably the most important of those areas right now is the workplace we're seeing an assault on that within wisconsin indiana you know across the absolutely absolutely i mean that i say this at the end of the book that in the two thousand and ten election immediately following that when you had this wave of tea party victories what was the two areas where these republican governors and legislatures state legislatures were most active the first was on the question of workplace rights as you just pointed out and that was of fundamental bottle wine and it continues to be and the other was on the question of reproductive rights there was a real effort you know just of. in this past week. but begin to go back to two thousand and ten due to defund planned parenthood because these these two spheres reproductive freedom and labor freedom the right of workers are really i think the front lines of the battle between left and right today russell russell kirk in one

nine hundred fifty won or fifty three when he wrote the conservative mind. you know started out with burke but around that time he had given an interview in which he had basically predicted the sixty's as suggested that if the middle class america became large enough and powerful enough if if if the average person the people that john adams america's first conservative president arguably used to refer to as the rabble if those people were given enough power you would see riots in the streets and in the one nine hundred sixty s. william f. buckley on his program firing line would frequently cite that i used to watch it and say see we're seeing the fulfillment of kirk's prediction these people have been given too much power the blacks are rising up into men in power now the women are burning their bras the young kids don't want to go off to war they're saying no to authority figures this is a society that is disintegrating because we've given too much power to the middle

class and the subtext it seems to me of that in retrospect is we have to take that power away from the middle class in order to stabilize society in order to make it safe for american america you know assuming the very best of intentions on the part of buckley it would you agree with that with that analysis and if so how far are we into that process of stripping the middle class of their power and certainly the economic portion their power in the political power and and you know where are we going with this and how might we stop it assuming that you that you're agree with that analysis. yeah i mean i think i've just slightly tweak it which i think that the conservative movement of the twentieth century was really about restoring power to employers and restoring power to husbands in the case of the women's movement and restoring power to white people and that those to the ladder to the women's movement and civil rights movement cuts across certain class lines and it's part of

the reason why conservatism has had such appeal across class lines and has been able to build a majority coalition but as i say i my reading of things today is that that project has really run its course and it's been so overwhelmingly sex is successful i mean you see these numbers that come out daily about the levels of inequality in the country i mean the their mind boggling. but until there is a left that really is serious about doing something about those numbers and i just i don't quite see us there yet i mean you see stirrings of course you mentioned with occupy and in certain parts of the democratic party but we're nowhere near where we were in the one nine hundred thirty s. of the one nine hundred sixty s. until you start seeing a movement like that i think we're going to be in a bit of a holding pattern and and. it'll it'll persist for

a bit it could persist do you think it could go even more conservative i mean at the time of the american revolution there were actually maximum wage laws in england it was illegal to pay a worker more than a maximum amount because the people in power did not want a middle class to emerge they wanted there to be small rich small mercantile middle class and a very large class of disempowered working poor we seem to be moving in that direction are we how much farther do we have to go before there's a a a a liberal reaction or a progressive reaction that actually can push back against this. well this is an interesting question i mean i don't know the answer and i don't think anybody does and the reason that we don't is that when the left or liberals whatever you want to use the term it's always the most unpredictable thing in the world nobody predicted the civil rights movement nobody predicted the labor movement nobody predicted the women's movement nobody predicted the abolitionist movement the left is

a politics of initiative and is on no particular timetable and so we really have no idea you know sometimes i think occupy is the first shot across the bow and it may become something quite big or it may fizzle out and this is just you know we just have no way of predicting that question it's going to be we're going to have to keep an eye on our politicians as it were and keep a lot of wind on their backs to move this thing along dr corey robin thank you so much for joining us tonight. thank you it's a very it's a pleasure an honor to have you with us to watch this conversation again as well as other conversations of great minds go to our web site of conversations with great minds. after the break looks like the keystone x.l. pipeline is packed. with republicans continue to use it as a lab rigid legislation negotiations more on that and other topics coming up in tonight's big picture rubble.

let's not forget that we had an apartheid regime right here and. i think the bombing is feeding on the well. whenever the government says they're going to keep you safe get ready because you get their freedom.

you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else you hear or see some other part of it and realized everything you thought you don't know i'm sorry is a big issue. for .

are you ready to rumble joining me for tonight's big picture rumble neil mckay mccabe excuse me columnist with human events richard a follower democratic strategist and advocacy director for the young democrats of america and tony katz host of the tony katz radio show on the all patriots radio network i hate radio guys i got about a lot of ok headship gentlemen see pac is in town and beyond all the over the top rhetoric about president obama the republicans. don't seem to have much to be excited about santorum has taken three states romney still looks like the inevitable nominee gingrich is in the tank he's van't well the guy was funding him as seems to stop giving him his money in fact shelly adelson has said now he'll give some money to romney if you know if he gets it and on top of that the economy is improving there's a new poll showing twenty percent of republicans today would likely vote for obama

and you know this is pretty scary so how much of a bummer is c. pac this year. first of all i have to completely disagree with everything i reject the premise that the people at c pac are actually jovial the throngs of people and the level of applause at c pac for santorum for romney for gingrich was unbelievable even ann coulter who wrote the three cheers for romney care article that had so many conservatives up in arms got huge laughs and huge cheers today santorum has raised three million dollars in three days nobody's bothered everybody is absolutely thrilled it's just the money there was an insane mob following around and coulter for her book signing the people bussed in by the gingrich speech. of their this time thinking rich speech there was hooting there was whistling there was cheering and the romney speech. they always excited during the pro-life stuff i'll give you that us some of the guys on radio row there who attended the romney

speech they'll tell you it's the best they've seen romney that romney did a pretty good job of trying to say listen i'm not saying it just to say that i will actually do these things i am actually that this is a bit of mist in five years were you there richard i was not in you know i try to stay away from events like that just because of the crowd might just get a little bit of relief from. that and that in that context why didn't the republicans invite president obama to see fact he passed a health care bill that was virtually line for line what richard nixon proposed in one hundred seventy three he proposed cap and trade legislation is that it's as far as i know he got there it's what i mean i mean wasn't there did you let him get a pig in all of this is list for it and then you guys he proposed cap and trade legislation that was proposed by reagan that was passed by george herbert walker bush and still works to this day to keep sulfur dioxide he signed the start treaty that reagan was pushing and he kept taxes at the same rate is even the second but if you talk to certain admirals out there they'll tell you the start treaty was absolutely unnecessary this is

a conversation that could have happened tween two gentlemen to reduce the level of nuclear arms a treaty was absolutely necessary it puts american a very bad position. it's an extremely bad precedent so let's not talk about the start treaty and everything else that we're living with are all recorders nonsense and one quarter is ridiculous i was not coming to see back you know what came back the occupiers today they're the ones who want to show up to see it back they're the ones who wanted to say you know they're the ones who said that mitt romney is social security secret service protection sorry but but gingrich and andrew breitbart they don't which is a threat so that's what you're saying here it was our job to buy a lot of the already she's always dressed like ah you know i used to say that he would raise your do you know he wears you know. i talked about want to want to you know i talked with one of the occupiers who was there who told me that they had put duct tape across their mouths and written on it if money is speech then poverty is silence that's a pretty powerful statement and that's going to lose and that's completely the end of the day pac even though it's a great event for republicans we all know that republicans will line their pockets of corporate dollars and corporate funds and you know they protect their

millionaire and billionaire friends except on obama super pac that one that's all i want to. do your level him but you know all the super pac has not raise nearly as much as i was rod if you want to look bad. or your hero romance that's what you want in the sense that you guys are that was never a week ago you had a principle now you have on the side of oh why would we ever go to why would you ever show up to a gun fight with a knife second of all second of all president obama is at with what do you mean with vehemently against citizens you know he should stay was it was the republicans and it was the public at supreme court he's the same guy who said he went to a said he was going to. lose it by the way what's not to like you your principles i mean. how many of these towns and by the way even when you lose just stick to your principles that's why we're going to be in an obama court and they're running does not stick to his principles you have this is what i say that because i don't know what his principles are you know you're going to and i'd say the same for the newt but in speaking. with lord after that last message to us that's very convenient

birth control the president came. recent changes today to his recent decision to force really don't want to. change even simply said that the insurance companies insurance companies have put the companies that pay the insurance companies are still on the hook ok so catholics united came out in favor of the day the trade association which represents the credit universe the democratic frankly the trade association that represents six hundred eighteen catholic hospitals virtually every catholic hospital the united states came out in support of this today that is not a democratic organization for you and for the bishops and the u.s. council bishops so you know i think this was a significant thing did obama use you jitsu and basically flip this thing over. and second question and then i'll let you go is was this agenda controversy to change the media narrative because everybody was talking about how the economic numbers were looking good obama was looking good all of a sudden was like we got a call it was something we've got to stop i think the police officer is way too

clever and you know the economic numbers when you don't include one point two million people in who is unemployed of course you can have a better number the problem is that obama can't do math here's the issue with what we're talking about what the contraception it's not about the even the supplying it's about whether or not you can mandate to a charity or to a religious organization or to the companies that they have to provide or is pushed to it it is about this this is about whether or not obamacare has validity whether it is going to play here david w. bush this is what we are talking about we are talking about the now is what is it that we expect from government what is it we value from government and so we are different i want yours where there is a government drawn and was keep bringing up george bush as if it's somehow going to attack this policy is the reisinger thousand you're a little long but the truth of the matter is that we know that ninety nine percent of women that at some point in time that a lot of the on birth control catholic women ninety percent of how we answered your poll well you know you can talk about that if you like but one of the simple fact

is that ninety nine percent i don't know i mean nine percent of women have depended on. birth control it is. listen let me finish it is on just for the we're not going to birth control to women who provide to our top dysfunction pills to men why is it on the insurance why is it on just not to provide birth control what is the harm well here's here's one what's the fourteen percent and seriously neil let me answer this fourteen percent of women who take birth control pills right now regularly are doing so because it's they have a genuine medical condition and to prevent things like ovarian cysts or to deal with you know violent painful. birth control the intent is not birth control the intent is another condition but. shouldn't have access to birth control is a sad that's not what he's saying at all that's an awful awful manipulation don't do it it's the truth it's not that it isn't and i say. it's absolute and there's a woman who is still in the. financial aid and therefore you have this right as you said as they are saying it's nobody and nobody can hear us if more than two people

are talking it just becomes a blur to our viewers so you know you were say what is dead on if you're talking about is a medical condition it's about a being a medical condition the fact that you use it and it happens to be birth control isn't about the conversation it's about what government can force you to do and i am one of those people as a tea party and proud of it and can tells you that government cannot be forced to tell you what to do with that is the issue that is always the conversation where is the line drawn about what government can do to you oh it's obama who famously said that he didn't like the constitution because of a charter grouping of negative charters it talks about what government can't do as opposed to a government must do for you that's a mistake and that is the that is the biggest problem with president obama and what he values in the constitution. but hold on one that i got a right hold on one second george w. bush and what he was in office he wanted to pass accomplishment of the people but people of the same sex can't get married that tells the government what you can and cannot do why is that any different as i think government should be out of marriage

altogether now that's over let's go back to why should government be here in the business of dictating what a health care. but the government is the government is protecting these women they don't get birth control. because health care is part of the commons because it's part of the general welfare as you know since felts care not denied it is for fourteen percent of women and out and we already tony and i already have if you mean pregnant a medical condition it's always health care the founding fathers didn't fight and die for health care they fought and died for liberty and freedom so obviously the only writer in president was to sign legislation that gave free health care to people jeepers i don't know tom totally i was a faggot george washington but anyhow let's get on here. so i mean we were going i didn't i didn't know that and i find it hard to believe so it looks like the keystone x.l. pipeline is back the house energy and commerce committee revived the pipeline this week and even to bring that up is like really nasty i mean that's that's just the

highway bill if i if i heard you right well in any case the house energy and commerce committee revive the pipeline this week passing legislation basically i don't need to read this stuff the republicans are going to hold the the infrastructure bill hostage to to get the x.l. pipeline pushed through which is you know fast transport of oil from canada to refineries in texas where they can be export our number one manufactured export right now in the states as gasoline so this is more more gasoline for export more money for exxon mobil china in the last decade the app has built five thousand miles of high speed rail we have none why are we having a national debate about high speed transportation of oil from one end of the country the other and nobody's talking about high speed transportation of people. give you want one of the great answers because it doesn't work and you can talk about high speed rail going from tampa to orlando for example in the i four corridor you can talk about it going from us los angeles to las vegas going up to

fifty be relevant and why is every other country in the world having to deal with those who actually are built for it you're talking about. certain issues with culture. that china is a very close ally and there are huge problems with the chinese and they are reconsidering they're coming on to speed rail or something here another resistance if i can pause for a second so we're saying that high speed rail is a bad thing where the only developed country in the world but doesn't have it not to mention the fact that every billion dollars these are the facts folks every billion dollars spent on transportation spending in the united states thirty four thousand jobs a keystone pipeline is only going to create at best one hundred fifty jobs if it's going to get so profitable some greedy billionaire will build that railroad for you yes. right exactly so the keystone pipeline is private money it's not taxpayer money you just stop you don't have to do anything private enters our land going to come from eminent domain and it's just going from us the taxpayers are going to they're just going to take it they're just going to take it

and they want and you know so no you're not right that's the government and what happened i thought you were so opposed to government tell us what we could and couldn't do what about people who don't want to give up their land for the pipeline well you know if you want to have an eminent domain conversations have an eminent domain conversation whether or not that's legitimate and that's a value i think that's a very worthwhile conversation and when you take a look at the keystone pipeline you know that it's no not at all that bad yes and when you consider our three minute filibustering you hang around with. the company has an obligation to buy the land even the people that don't want to sell the land really. local am just doing it for a highway you're not you have no problem i would we're just talking about every other word about the keystone pipeline and that's and the other i'm still amazed that we're trying to move oil across the country we're not moving people. really. want to build that thing was already it's hot across the country i mean you know

and i was going to say a break that track doesn't make money they lose money every year who's going to use it to it is the it is serving the. a good it would lower the lower but let's get let's get back to this in just a coming up a big week for equal rights in america so why are republicans happy more rubble after the break. let's not forget that we had an apartheid regime right here. i think rock bottom feeder well. whenever the government says they're going to keep you safe get ready because you

get their freedom. you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so. you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else you hear see some other part of it and realized everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm sorry is a big issue. for .

well america the rumble on the panel tonight neil mccabe richard a follower and tony katz let's get back to it guys a good day for equal rights in america federal appeals court ninth circuit court struck down california's prop eight which bans same sex marriage just a judge stephen reinhardt wrote in the majority opinion proposition eight serves no purpose and has no effect other than a lesson the status and dignity of gays and lesbians in california and to officially reclassify their relationships and families as inferior to those of opposite sex couples end quote and the washes state legislature last week has same sex marriage laws i think probably by now governor gregoire has signed it or is

about to but not everybody is happy mitt romney and newt gingrich went off on this thing newt mitt mitt today said today unelected judges cast aside the will of the people of california who voted to protect traditional marriage issues yesterday and gingrich said court of appeals overturning california's prop eight is another example of an out of control judiciary so looking back ten or twenty years from now . are we going to be looking at this as you know you know in a way that we now look back in one thousand in the one nine hundred sixty s. at the end of the final end of the subjugation laws or even the end one nine hundred seventy three when the courts legalized abortion and people are still ticked off about it ok so you think this is a this is a disaster rather than a body it's so absurd that a court could take declare a constitutional amendment unconstitutional is just absurd and i don't think that it was a state custody moment and that it is us that federal judge has no standing to tell the people of california what was a three judge panel that three judge panel has no standing to tell us whether it is

truth of the matter is we depend upon our courts to make that to help the little guy we saw that in brown versus board of education where the states where they said the school is unconstitutional on top of that the folks at parade the competition like newt gingrich and mitt romney where the constitution says pretty clearly life liberty pursuit of happiness and if you love somebody you deserve the right to marry that's your happiness and how could how can the government how dare the government infringe on a person's happiness ok we got it by the way we've got to wrap it up that i've got him being out of marriage but this isn't about a child i don't care i want another ok last question quickfire mississippi state representative steve holland made news this week he came up with a new way to help show mississippi's particularly distaste for mexicans by introducing a house bill one fifty that in mississippi would rename the gulf of mexico to the gulf of america so here we go with freedom fries all over again aside from the fact that we can't actually read ayman international body of water what else might republicans target for renaming in the coming.