now if not we're going to take a look at more details emerging from the a.p. investigation and the n.y.p.d. not only with this writing on muslim students but communities outside of new york as well so does this mean that their jurisdiction to spy on innocent people has no boundaries and the n.s.a. is claiming that anonymous might be a threat to power grids in the future but this is just more hype to make them sound dangerous that is reliance on drone use increases we have to think about where technology robots will take us next what legal ethical social questions arise as we move into the future we're going to all that going to happy hour but first take a look at the mainstream media has this. poll today protests continue in afghanistan over the burning of korans at the u.s. run president considering that the u.s. embassy has been closed off because of it i mean three media is actually paying the story some attention. see in kabul afghanistan on lockdown right now afghans

are protesting koran burnings outside the bar military base as you can hear there lots of shots fired cars buildings torched at least five protesters have died the soldiers at baghran air base were throwing out. of material from the library the detention facility material that they felt was being used by the insurgency that they did not realize it was religious material and now president karzai putting out a statement. and in first to go to war. going to use the appointed a committee of senior clerics to look at it under islamic law writing inside the koran is forbidden and burning them is in except just means of the schools they want the afghan government the international community everyone to know how angry they are unfortunately what this means is protest protest by. now what happened here according to the official reports is that afghan laborers at barmera feel a lot of back containing copies of the koran and once all the trash that was on its

way the installations a gigantic incinerator so they managed to prevent some of the copies from being burned but then found the scorched evidence of others so after they were shown to people living near the base that's an outrage began and as you should have general john allen who's currently our top commander in afghanistan apologized profusely his next move was to order immediate training for all western troops on the proper handling of religious materials and so this is where we all realize there's a serious problem this is where the mainstream media reporting on the issue needs to start asking some serious questions we've been fighting a war in afghanistan for ten years and we need new training on how to handle religious materials not to mention this isn't the first time that something like this has happened we saw it just last year when pastor terry jones finally decided to go ahead with his idiotic plan to burn the koran afterwards we saw massive protests in afghanistan we saw ten u.n. workers killed that doesn't mean that violence or riots are justified it just means

that we should know better by now how this is going to be perceived and what the possible reactions might be in a muslim country in which you've got a huge military presence for the last ten years. and you wonder why winning hearts and minds hasn't exactly been working out but anyway i'm not here for a visit the numerous conversations we've had on this show about counterinsurgencies félix about the failings of this entire war effort because we do that all the time because we care the mainstream media on the other hand that they make it seem like they could care less and so what reporting on the story today they treat it as just another piece of news those riot prone afghans just getting pissed off again but if they at least have the decency to try and play catch up to admit that they've been doing a really shoddy job shirking their responsibilities of informing the american public about our longest war if they were questioning our military officials and politicians about the way that it's being carried out the reasons behind it well this would be the perfect time to start asking why after ten years we still have mistakes made on this level but i guess they must be crazy this is after all the

mainstream media we're talking about and as usual they're continuing on with their policy of choosing to miss. well a.p. has continued releasing portions of its investigation this week of the n.y.p.d. surveillance of muslims post nine eleven over the weekend they detailed how the n.y.p.d. had spied on muslim students and over a dozen schools throughout the northeast is included sending overcover officer on a whitewater rafting trip in two thousand and eight yesterday they released more bombshell details on how the n.y.p.d. expanded its surveillance to long island and to newark new jersey where plainclothes officers fanned out across the city taking pictures eavesdropping on conversations inside of businesses owned or we can tell by muslims they also photographed a map to mosques and the results of this program led to a sixty page report that cited no evidence of terrorism or criminal behavior as the

associated press put it it was a guide to new works muslims so newark's mayor says that he was kept entirely in the dark about this operation and he even launched an investigation so also all of this just more evidence that civil liberties have completely blown out the window for the muslim population in america joining me from our studio in new york is ryan devereaux a reporter at the guardian ryan thanks so much for joining us tonight and you know the a.p. has actually been releasing been doing this investigation releasing stories on it since last year but do you think that as they put more information out there as the story is very is it becoming worse is it more damning. well it's hard to say if it's worse or or more damning but it's certainly entirely in the lengths that the department has gone to sort of monitor the muslim community in new york city and around the area and it's been interesting to see the way that these reports published by the a.p. have received an increasing amount of traction you know in the last couple of

months people are i believe starting to pay attention we're seeing more and more rallies protests and that sort of thing here in new york city so it's it's growing the attention on this issue is growing that being said it's not the kind of thing that you're going to see you know your standard television program you know in the evening news. why is that right i mean i think that this is pretty outrageous what they're actually putting out there what they're exposing and you mentioned that maybe locally you're finally seeing a little bit more attention being drawn to a few more rallies but you know if this were to happen to any other group and american society do you think that people would be so quick to let it slide wouldn't there be a lot more rage out there. well it is you're right about a lot of things there in that this is a really complex issue we've got to put it into the proper historical context new york city in two thousand and one following the attacks was it was devastated it

was a it was a collectively it an incredibly traumatic experience and here in the city a lot of these programs have pretty serious support among new yorkers which many people would find shocking because. as i mentioned before that the department is going to monitor civilians who aren't accused of any wrongdoing but a lot of people here feel like this is a sort of necessary evil that the department has to do whatever it takes to keep the city safe and you know as to why mainstream you know networks and that sort of thing don't pick up on issues like this i think it's because civil liberties cases issues of civil liberties are complex and you have to actually look at all the different variables at play here and there are a lot in this case i think that there are. plenty of people in the n.y.p.d. who are doing the best that they can to keep the city safe and there are plenty who

criticize what the department has done you know in its efforts to do that. said i think a lot of voices in new york city voices in the muslim community are being are being drowned out by those who say that we have to do whatever we can to keep this city safe and i think that those voices that are being drowned out should be heard well you know you actually spoke to one of the students that just recently found out that when he was on his whitewater rafting trip there was an undercover police officer there and he is just one of many students i don't know how many thousands that were being monitored by the n.y.p.d. you know in universities all across the northeast but what did he tell you about how he felt about this. well he said when he when he first heard he first he first heard last week that he was shocked he was stunned that you know you know he's here he told me that you always hear about the n.y.p.d. monitoring this group or that group but when what happens to you in hits really close to home. he told me a very interesting story is he's twenty four years old he was born in pakistan when

he was trying to immigrate into the united states when he was trained in that is still the case here and so he. he was having that the hardest time going through and someone suggested to him well you know why don't you write your local write your congressman write who will write to who will be your congressman and that's what he did and you know months later he got his. you got to citizenship and that to him was an experience of you know american democracy at its finest and he believes that if the n.y.p.d. would make a greater effort to sort of highlight those sorts of experiences as ways that the public can engage with the political system in a nonviolent fashion that those in the muslim community who might be on the fringe would realize that there are paths that they can take you know to change the way things are that don't lead to violence he believes that you know he would like to help out the department in its efforts to you know squash homegrown threats but he thinks the way that their partner is going about it right now is all wrong but it's

alienating young men and particularly young muslim men who could be you know who they could reach out to. well let's break down some of what we learned to just from these two specific investigations released this week in the case of monitoring students we've seen something that we have seen before where it was the informant or whether where it was the undercover officer you know where we actually saw somebody call from rutgers university worried that there might be somebody in a terrorist cell and it turns out it was just undercover officers that were concerned for them so i mean what do you call that you know is that is the irony is that a proof that these tactics aren't working the way that they're supposed to. i don't know if it's of proof i don't know if it's solid proof that they are working i think you could maybe point to other examples that might suggest that there are flaws in the program in the program but it does show that the department is working

outside of new york city to gather intelligence and what we learned today was that newark mayor cory booker and governor chris christie of new jersey governor chris christie neither of these guys had any idea what the department was doing in in new jersey what the new york city police department was doing in new jersey it's pretty breathtaking the the new york city police department is going into these other communities and conducting surveillance work without. telling local politicians and the people who are supposed to be in charge of those those communities what they're doing well that is breathtaking i'd say that you know it's basically illegal we found out that you had then why p.t. working with the cia helping out you know helping to set up some of these domestic programs for monitoring u.s. citizens or just the muslim community here in the u.s. you know and now you have them extending their jurisdiction to god knows where but i mean do you think that we would ever see any legal repercussions there or them

get into any trouble how do you deal with a situation like this. well there are different groups in new york city you're looking at different options in terms of how to hold the police department accountable yesterday the new york times at least an article talking about how there's this coalition of two dozen activist groups and legal groups who are going to be focusing on the two thousand thirteen mayoral campaign in you know sort of going out and making sure the public knows where candidates stand on issues such as stop and frisk which like the monitoring of muslim communities involves the complaints that the department is engaging in widespread racial profiling there's a sense in new york city that there isn't really a accountability structure or an oversight structure for the police department that it's effective the department is often criticize of lacking in any transparency or accountability is so you know it remains to be seen what what the public will will

do or can do about the department whether we'll see a lead legal action i don't know but let me just ask you real quickly what you think of mayor bloomberg the response last year he was saying that in no way is religion taken into account when the n.y.p.d. does these programs now that more information is coming out. and he's actually finding that. i believe that mayor bloomberg also said that he wasn't aware of the rafting trip situation which to me suggests that he didn't really didn't read the latest a.p. report and why he was after people i think that it went too far and he said no he said it you've got to do what you got to do to keep people safe. he also said that the follows leads which is the same line that the n.y.p.d. uses to justify its its monitoring program and i think the public has yet to be convinced to those leads are substantiated especially when they're casting such a wide net in terms of their intelligence gathering practices are i want to thank

you so much for joining us tonight and. great investigative work coming out from the a.p. there but as you said it as public opinion is actually mixed on this situation but you know it's pretty damaging for civil liberties that's for sure thanks. sam perfect break when we come back with contractors are finding another way cash in on violence and this time it's not us as many war zones but and mexico's drug war cost the border and i say it's morning that anonymous to take down power grids in the u.s. in the future is that a real possibility or just more fear mongering from us and just agency nasa. people calling what you said for free and fair elections.

again we're still reporting from the flames as you can hear behind me loud explosions. you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so easy to understand it and then something else and you hear or see some other part of it and realize that everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm sorry welcome to the big picture.

but i think the word bodyguard what comes to mind is of those men to protect the president or the trenchcoat the sunglasses the ear buds talking other watches or perhaps your mind floats the late great whitney houston. we.

don't look like the body very. well business is good for bodyguards right now and guess where it's booming along the mexico border mexico's environ violence for over a decade and it's only getting worse with the drug cartels fighting the military as well as each other and terrorizing the local populations anyone that's traveling or conducting business in this country especially americans know that they'll need protection so they call bodyguards in the u.s. can provide that service for them in mexico but not like the ones we just told you about even more of a mix between defense contractors and secret service without the fancy get up and these people work for private firms who specialize in executive protection for their clients so these firms are not only hired to protect their clients but they're also supposed to prevent abductions and even help negotiate kidnapping cases should any arise and anyone who's asking how foreign nationals get away with

carrying weapons in another country they should take note of how these executive protection firms operate typically they'll designate to an armed detail leaders will be americans from these farms and the leaders are having a group of about four armed mexican guards typically police officers trying to make some extra money on the side so while the armed guards do all the dirty work the leaders are in charge of the brains of the operation whether it be picking travel routes prescreening guards or even determining safe locations for conferences or meetings now when it comes to executive protection we're not just talking about americans going down to mexico we're also talking about wide across the border into the u.s. protection is needed both ways are as dangerous was highlighted a few firms that specialize in what they're calling executive protection clayton international blackstone and klein investigations they say there's been a one hundred twenty percent increase in business over the past two years partially . because of it top uptick in violence but also because it's used as

a status symbol for those that are seeking protection but it goes to show you those firms glorified private defense contractors if you will have found a new revenue stream and like i said before in mexico business is booming right now . now just last week we spoke about a cyber war as the new yellowcake conflating various cyber threats into one all out apocalyptic scenario demands aggressive action and countering so with yellowcake and helped build up to the iraq war look at be in the cyber round of u.s. intelligence officials are setting up a narrative that anonymous could be as dangerous as russian or chinese or running into north korean hackers but they might even work with al qaeda in the future such as the tone of wall street journal article quoting anonymous government officials who say that the director of the n.s.a. general keith alexander has warned in white house meetings that anonymous could have the ability within the next year or two to bring about limited power outages through cyber attack now the anonymous affiliated twitter account at your in

a news responded calling this ridiculous fear mongering from the n.s.a. u.s. government and as why would a non shut off the power grid there are people on life support other vital services the rely on it try again and say fear mongering so what do we think of the n.s.a. guided height over anonymous joining me to discuss this from our studio in new york is adam carcasses from the atlantic wire and dan kaplan executive editor of c magazine everyone i thank you both for joining me tonight and i guess you know i don't want to start with you what do you think on a technical level about these threats that we're hearing reportedly from anonymous officials as to what the n.s.a. is saying that in one or two years anonymous might be able to have this technology what is it exactly that need to change in one or two years of think that christopher see going to have a good point today when he said you know the grid is either secure or it's insecure . i think it's a great point and something that i've covered a lot of the atlantic wires the fact that the united states government isn't really up to speed when it comes to cyber security we learned late last year that there

were a number of attacks that probably came from china that the government didn't even know about the attacks happened over the course of the past ten years and we didn't even know we were being hacked into when it comes to anonymous i think that it's worth pointing out that everything is connected to the internet now and the hackers it out and it seems to know more about how your networks than the u.s. government if you want anything from the soap about oh it's that these legislators don't understand how the internet works and so from a technical level it's entirely possible but. then again i sort of feel the fear mongering point as well right there what do you think here right any i guess our lawmakers i think we learned from the cell phone from a battle good point out of aren't exactly up to speed with. tails when it comes to how the internet should be or should not be regulated at all but i mean these are the intelligence agencies we're talking about so do they have a motive behind what these warnings are you think. you know i mean i can only gauge

just by past performance and then the same in the tools are available there's no morality certainly in these terrorists and so you get is looking at what anonymous has chosen as their targets for the last couple of years you know it seems to be organizations that government agencies with with whom they don't agree with and they've been pretty clear about their targets and it would be kind of hypocritical of the group at those themselves as you know fighter for human rights and internet freedom to want to go after power grid and disrupt power for people you know but they're conceivably fighting for yeah i guess you could argue that perhaps they're more of some of their battle scene being rather populist battles you know in that sense but i also i'm curious what you guys think of the way of the wall street journal is reporting this i mean do you think the media also has to carry some of the blame that maybe they aren't being critical enough you know as to fanning the flames. i mean i would just say that sorry guys sorry guys adam go ahead and

director well there. are two sentences if i can channel my editor a bit any story that sort of is based on a premise you know something might happen it could be told the same way as as that thing might not happen and i think that the wall street journal is a great newspaper however that's not a story that i would have written exactly like that. they all of a you know yeah i mean that was your journal or you know they had an article two years ago by the same writer saying quoting government officials saying the cyber spies from russia and china are already in the paragraph you know to have a story say that you know this is a couple of years out possibility it strikes me as as a little bogus i would say though that the government has you know good reason obviously there's they're making arrests but they're anonymous is continuing to you know hit their targets with utter abandon and the government probably wants to

conduct the p.r. war a little bit on anonymous and get the public kind of on their side. and you know it's not the first time they've tried it either because then you and i spoke i believe it was last year when d.h.s.s. basically making the exact same you know warnings about where they think that anonymous really might be headed but what about the language that they're using now and i don't know if we attribute this only to the wall street journal in a way that they were part of it or maybe this is what i'm getting from some of these sources and that they're trying to call anonymous a stateless organization you know some people have decided that almost sounds like they're trying to make it you know connect them to terrorism and some way you know what do you think them. yeah i mean the word terrorists didn't really have meaning to me at least but certainly when you throw around that word terrorist you know it certainly gets people pretty frantic and pretty worried so i think you know if if the government is trying to get people to be quite worried about anonymous i think

throwing around the word terrorist would be a good way to do that. but. i guess though they haven't used terrorist yet but they're saying stateless organization and yet at the same time they're saying that maybe some other country might want to contract an attack out to anonymous or maybe even an organization like al qaeda might want to do that i mean do you really see that as a possibility and i don't know from covering anonymous for a couple of years now i think that if i've gleaned anything from their sort of montreaux or their philosophy it's that they do kind of want the world to be a better place and you know one of the. biggest actions that didn't get covered is the extent to which they supported the freedom fighters in the arab spring and you know helping the revolutionaries when democracy in their country is one thing that feels like something anonymous is interested in and we have no proof that they did help out and that. killing the power grid and potentially killing human beings just

doesn't feel like something that they would be interested that again i don't know this is. anonymous and so we don't really know who is involved or what they're doing or they could do so where this is the best we could hope for i just think that. kind of drumming up fear over it is not necessarily the best way to better understand the movement well what do you think atoms knew about you know this global internet blackout blackout that supposedly they've been floating around on march thirty first. that's another thing that's been denied by a number of different. anonymous affiliates and different factions within anonymous it's just kind of like last year anonymous said that on guy fawkes day they were going to bring down facebook and we all know that didn't happen it's all it takes to produce an anonymous threat is someone with some basic video editing software and an internet connection to youtube account upload it and suddenly we have an

ominous threat. the more that we see anonymous work or that we realize that it does take. a lot more than a simple you tube video to equal the real threat otherwise it's just that lowercase a anonymous threat i mean i guess you could say that for the most part you know what they've done is they've hacked into you sarah e-mails last attack that none of it has been that damning and so dan you know would you compare this last week on the show we had a conversation about whether cyber war is the new yellowcake the way it was the buildup to war in iraq you know i mean the side we're i mean i don't know if you've even really seen a cyber worry so. but you know when you when you're talking about anonymous i you know i want to make a point that you know when they're when they're going after the power grid you know and things like that you know your government is doing is essentially they're you know promoting fear and and i think it and i think what they're doing is

potentially wanting to get cyber security legislation passed and we haven't spoken about that with the government as you know there's been efforts to get cybersecurity legislation passed through the house and senate without much progress at all so i think if you drum up these sort of fears you know like anonymous dateless organization then that might help them advance some of that. then adam thanks so much for joining us tonight. thank you thank you. our time for breaking one return and i think it's interviews that i read it and then a robot there use them in a war but they're coming home with me like you're not so the world becomes more automated what are the legal and ethical questions that we. find out the british. find me guilty i mean it's the same. people calling like you said for free and fair elections.

again we're still reporting from the same outlets where you can hear behind me loud explosions. the chief of police i mean. i get it gave me a. you know some pleasure to see a story and it seems so silly you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else and you hear see some other part of it and realized everything you thought you knew.