welcome to the launch show where we get the real headlines with none of the mersey live in washington d.c. now tonight we're going to speak to scott horton about the continued violence in afghanistan and what it means for the trained forces that the u.s. and nato troops are supposed to leave behind there then our monday hangover panel we're going to talk about oil prices the ties between housing and student debt and what rick santorum has to say for the separation of church and state and wiki leaks is beginning to publish five million e-mails from the analysis company stratfor going to look into the details of this latest dump with kevin gusto let him have

all that work at night including a dose of happy hour but first take a look with the mainstream media has decided to miss. this morning there are some very sad and disturbing news the dominated the television screens as there was yet another shooting on a school campus and us this time in ohio. at least four students injured when a gunman walked into the high school there and began opening fire this morning mccown now up to five students shot and wounded the gunman opened fire in the school cafeteria early this morning there are two separate shooters it's still under lockdown after a shooting was reporting in the school's cafeteria least four students have been injured police say two gunmen are now in custody the school has been evacuated is on lockdown and we do know from authorities at this point that four students have been injured children inside the building were texting were phoning were trying to

give updates parents and families are terrified four children were shot parents were rushing to the scene of sharpton high school and you know trying to find their kids. now these kinds of events are always horrific and i'm sure it must strike a chord with every parent out there that as a child they just sent off to school this morning and so i'm sure that in the aftermath as more pieces of this puzzle are put together we're going to hear a lot about bullying about moderate monitoring social media about gun control about parenting you name it this morning however there was very little information to work with those mostly it was just speculation the typical breaking news style repetition of the few details that were actually out there now the reason that i actually bring this up is because it's one of those scenarios where the mainstream media feels the story is too big to ignore so they'll spend hours covering it despite the fact that there really isn't any information to offer and that's their decision right it's a tragic event and it's something of a problem public probably wants to be informed. but then you contrast that to the

amount of time that they spent today talking about afghanistan and there's something in particular that you can pick up on when there are no details but it's just developing they do whatever they can to give it wall to wall coverage and find as many people involved as they possibly can in this small town in ohio when it comes to a war at this country's and fighting for more than ten years where analysis should come pretty damn easy at this point it's still dangerously scant. this being called a revenge attack or a suicide bomber hitting an airport in jalalabad in eastern afghanistan that killed nine other deadly day in afghanistan after two suicide bombers detonated a car bomb and also this attempted poisoning at nato as well traces of the koran. bleach been found in coffee and fruit the taliban is now claiming responsibility the taliban says it's a direct response to the burning of the muslim holy books just the latest in a wave of violence throughout afghanistan after u.s. troops inadvertently burned several copies of the qur'an this is not the time to be sorry we're done here we got to redouble our efforts you could not have

a better ambassador in this crisis point this is ryan crocker who has been in every tough post and came back into service after retiring was in beirut when the bombing took place in one thousand nine hundred three he was in charge of that embassy bassler ryan crocker says the mission must go on and now was not the that now is the time rather to redouble our efforts there on the ground how possible is that at the moment as the reduction in troop size here continues that is being called into question it's up to you how they can redouble their efforts here because of this crisis. now you see what i think the question should be after hearing u.s. ambassador to afghanistan ryan crocker statement it should be not can we redouble our efforts but why should we why should we redouble those efforts why would we now let's face it the troop drawdown is happening and it's about time that it happens but in terms of our efforts until that moment well what does this entire chain of events in afghanistan over the last week really tell us sure many in the mainstream

media want to just portrayed as violence that overreaction in a religious country to the burning of korans something that should and will pass and i do think it will pass this type of violence on a daily basis will not continue until troops leave but it's not just about burning korans right it's about the last ten years we've had a military presence in this country it's about civilian deaths a situation. which has made life for civilians only more dangerous over the entire course it's about propping up a government that's weak that's corrupt that's failed to bring any kind of stability to the country and i think that we see it all coming together here years of frustration and resentment triggered again by it in verdant yet stupid move on the part of our military and perhaps the worst of it all is what's been reported as two u.s. service members working within the interior ministry in afghanistan being shot in the head with a gun that had a silencer on it by an interior ministry employee so that's damning is he wants troops start to leave the entire point is to hand this off to afghan security

forces that are trained have others continue to work with the government and the military in advisory roles so this kind of move is not promising sign as to where that's going and at the ambassador obviously telling people not to panic so that all troops must leave immediately because well that's unrealistic he also says we have to redouble our efforts and create a situation where al qaeda is not coming back guess what al qaeda as admitted by our top military officials is virtually gone from afghanistan those that are protesting in afghanistan right now against western forces are not necessarily pro taliban they're fed up and if within ten years we haven't been able to create a situation where that trust actually exists then why do we think the redoubling over the next few months is going to make a difference these are simple yet realistic questions to me all you have to do is connect the dots you pay attention to what actually happens what's said in this longest american war and then you get it but the mainstream media seems completely oblivious they'll suss out every detail if they possibly can if it's another story

when it comes to afghanistan where they choose to miss. all right so let's continue with our analysis of what's really going on in afghanistan as protests and violence continue and ask what it really means for the war joining me from our studio in new york is scott horton contributing editor on legal and national security matters for harper's magazine scott thanks so much for joining us tonight and i guess overall what's your assessment of what we've seen going on afghanistan over the last week you know do you think that we should be focusing less on the protests and more on the moves like i said of these two u.s. officials that were shot in the head by an interior ministry employee. no i think it i think we've come to an important juncture and it's definitely the right approach to take right now to look seriously and ask some questions about what's

going on there and whether the consequences of the effort that's been pending for a decade you know remember generals betray us a mcchrystal told us this is a counterinsurgency effort this phase of the effort is the objective is to convince the afghans that we're there friends were there to protect them we're not the enemy but i think what we can see in all these recent developments is that we have a real problem with that message right now and i think the the flare up surrounding the burning of the korans shows that very well it wasn't the worst possible sort of melt down most leaders and afghanistan cold for call nevertheless it was persistent and went over on for a period of several days and involved incidents in many parts of the country it was extremely violent resulting in deaths and as you know we have that incident the

courage in the interior ministry but that has stores to be seen in context. in fact the pentagon the has been troubled now for the last year about the proliferation of shootings by afghan soldiers of americans and nato soldiers we have more than sixty nato soldiers most of them americans have been shot by their fellow afghans and what's the reason for that what's behind it it's extremely important to ask that question and try to come to some conclusions and by and large the media isn't doing that. why definitely great the media's doing that but also you know are the officials partly to blame here even if you look at her statement where he says that we should redouble our efforts and says that at the end of the day we still have to make sure that al qaeda can't come back to afghanistan it just seems a little it seems off to me and i don't know if it's a refusal you know or what exactly the motivations are for officials for military officials for basters to acknowledge that maybe there's more to this than just

being burned but perhaps the history of everything else in piling up of the last ten years. well i don't think anybody really expects to see the return in the serious way to afghanistan that's not the issue the taliban is an issue but i think ultimately the bigger issues are the viability of the regime in kabul it's it's a corrupt regime it's a difficult regime the u.s. and nato had a very difficult time working with them but i think the other huge issue is a question of tactics for the nato allies in fact you know we've made more than their fair share our fair share of mistakes and you know disposing of qur'an says garbage was just a stupid thing to do no doubt about that a lot of the problems we've had in afghanistan have related to just stupid mistakes bombing wedding parties killing children for instance but i think a lot of the problem also has to do with some of the tactics that we've used to nitrates raids for instance which have not gone over well with the afghan

population and you know we've had nato has done some very serious studies why are the afghans so on the happy with us. a series of recurrent issues come out minor things like the fact that our soldiers like to shoot at the livestock and kill livestock that they routinely disrespect elders that they mistreat women that they break down doors in their houses at night time this is earned a lot of ill will and i see i think we see that erupting in the course of the last week but it's been there just under the surface for a long time well stephanie as something that's been around like i said it seems to be in agreement is that it piled up over ten years which makes perfect sense but how do you think that pakistan might be looking at the situation or tempting and using this situation in the future you know when had we have this interiorization

that's been happening between the u.s. and pakistan we have the washington post reporting on secret cables that apparently the u.s. ambassador sent to washington saying you know that the networks still is making a lot of progress in pakistan but none of that really seems all that shocking and so are they just going to buy their time waited out until the u.s. leaves and try to take advantage of this trust gap i guess you could say. that's exactly what they're planning to do i mean in fact of course all these developments are playing into the hands of the generals in this. it's almost an ideal scenario for them hostility on the part of the afghan population towards nato towards the americans is building it's a tense it's a difficult situation they're able to maintain and develop their ties with not just to con the or so many other taleban factions there waiting for the drawdown to occur for a reduction of the position of american soldiers and nato soldiers in afghanistan

and then they intend to reassert themselves and i'd say they're in a strong position to do exactly that scott i'm really curious to see what your take is on the situation in syria a lot of the different calls that we're hearing of course we have republican senators here in the u.s. that think that we should directly start arming the opposition you have hillary clinton the secretary of state saying we don't exactly know who these people are you know if hamas to supporting the syrian opposition does that mean we're supporting hamas does that mean we're supporting a kind of there's still a lot of questions to be answered here but what i find particularly interesting is the way that we've seen the debates change if you look to the media do you think if there is no such thing out there anymore somebody who thinks that yes what's happening in syria is brutal and it's horrible but you can't have that and also believe in nonintervention at the same time you know it really seems like this liberal like humanitarianism. interventionist attitude is starting to to i would say be the the major view. i think you're right about that i mean i think

they're there that we're hearing the drums of war beat aggressively it's being suggested constantly that there's no way to resolve this other them by arming the rebels and toppling the regime the assad regime and i think the world needs to be concerned about the humanitarian aspect here and the fact that towns are being bombarded and civilians are being killed constantly but of course it's appropriate for the world to push for a peaceful resolution of this controversy and not to see violence as the only way out here and one thing we have to worry about is if saddam is gone what's the guarantee that the new regime that's coming is going to be any better and fact that if we look at the situation inside of syria it seems clear a lot of groups the maronite the catholics the wides and others clearly have cast

their lot with assad because i think they fear what would happen in the event of a change they fear a less tolerant regime so i'd say there's no clear easy solution to this crisis i had scott thanks so much for joining us tonight great to be with you. hi guys there's a lot more to come you might be feeling a little disoriented after the news of the weekend and that's why we have our monday hangover panel coming up we're going to ask whether or not college is just for snobs and if the separation of church and state is absolute. make your head stops the. people calling like you said for free and fair elections.

and we're still reporting from the same as you can hear behind me loud explosions. you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else and you hear or see some other part of it and realize that everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm charging welcome to the big picture.

all right so it's another monday which means it's time for another monday hangover segment on the show get back to work on for the week and you realize that there is no rest for the alarmists the political haters in this world so today we're going to take a look at rick santorum discussed with the idea of separation of church and state

a look at those calling for you the u.s. to tap into the strategic petroleum reserves and we'll discuss some of the undiscussed elements tying student debt to the housing crisis so here to discuss it with me is anthony randolph director of economic research for the reason foundation and eric thompson senior editor senior editor at the atlantic thanks for trying to go the words are coming out. so in that case let me talk and let's just go to rick santorum and it all really started over something he said a couple of years ago but you know when you're somebody who starts to suddenly gain in the polls who scarily might have a chance of winning certain states in a presidential election that the things that you said in the past start coming back to haunt you except for he doubles down so take a look at what he said about religion in the separation of church and state this weekend. you have also spoken out about the issue of religion and politics and earlier in the campaign you talked about john f. kennedy's famous speech to the baptist ministers in houston back in one thousand nine hundred here's if you had to say. you're going to. read the speech.

that speech has been read as you know by millions of americans it seems were echoed in part by mitt romney in the last campaign why did it make you throw up. because the first line the first substantive line in the speech says i believe in america where the church the separation of church and state is absolute i don't believe in an america where the separation of church and state is absolute. santorum also said a couple years ago that he thought that the freedom of religion was the most important element of the first amendment i mean you know what does this say when this guy is actually doing well he sounds hysterical than me and and he's choosing which parts of the first amendment he thinks are more important than the other i mean to freak me out it's really seems to me like you fundamentally misunderstands exactly which if he was saying that. people making public policy shouldn't make

christian policy and rick santorum says what you're saying christians can't make public policy you know that's not what he's saying he sank of course christians can make public policy because so can do so can atheists but they should make public policy that appeals to reason and doesn't simply appeal to the specifics of someone's faith that they can't articulate beyond their faith it's only saying santorum also misunderstanding the whole nature of separation of church and state in the first in the first matter which is to say that the state cannot establish a religion the state can't interfere in religion but that doesn't mean that people of faith cannot be involved in government that doesn't mean that the church or people of faith are faith in general can't have an influence on government we can say yes or no but the that is just a misunderstanding of the ideas of separation of church and state in the constitution which is ironic given that santorum is. saying that somebody else doesn't understand. but that's i wonder you know do people actually buy it because i think the most people can see that rick santorum is kind of twisting what the

interpretation is supposed to be of the first amendment but there was a voter or just a viewer on t.v. is going to necessarily listen to that and say you know i like the guy has to say he wants to throw up on the separation of church and state who believes it really i mean look like one hand i think there's an interesting sort of political philosophy debate that the can be had about the separation of church and state we were talking actually earlier in the green room about you know john rawls who's a political philosopher has this great phrase called the veil of ignorance you should make public policy you should make laws as if behind a veil of ignorance where you don't know what religion you are with gender you are so the last to come out don't preference anybody they preference the average person or the typical person but the reason this is playing and it's you know it's playing for millions of voters according to polls i think speaks to the kind of resentments and the kind of frustrations that americans feel it really your average americans thinking that what's happened the last ten years in the last three years has taken

the country away from them it's taken it away from them culturally economically socially and they're looking for someone who can speak to that sort of that that's that sort of resentment that sort of frustration that that something deeply americans change and i think i see that as somebody taking the country away from me the right in the world a presidential candidate actually doing pretty well that is is that totally didn't sell it he's setting up a straw man as essentially what he's trying to do is this argument that he is systematically under attack in the united states and the simple fact of the matter is that no matter what minority you are and when you are a christian you know it is obviously the united states but it's look people are always going to concentrate on anything that you see is an attack to yourself who is appealing to the side that is under under attack and that separation of church and state is somehow a way to attack it and to force christians out of government completely. and by setting that up as the reality then he can come in and say i throw up on this idea how important how poor it is this idea when that's not really what's going on and

that appeals to people who believe in the straw man that has built up that makes me that makes me worry for the world work we move onto to the next five and rick santorum is i used to say the gift that keeps on giving when it was during the campaign we had michele bachmann and we had herman cain because these people would just say things are so stupid but he's taken it to such another level of crazy that i don't even it's not a gift anymore oh you're starting to scare me and so this is what he had to say about the idea people everyone should have access to a college education first obama wants said he wants everybody in america to go to college. what a snow. good decent bit of the women who are here card every day and put their skills to test that are taught by some liberal college professor to try to

a doctor. these guys santorum went to college everybody who's running for president has been to college and they've all been indoctrinated by some liberal professor i just had why i like the disgust with the idea of getting a college education that used to be part of the american dream well of course part of the american dream i do think the message here is not what he's saying but what he sort of winking at which is that there's someone in the white house who doesn't understand you right who once things for you that aren't good for you if you had a republican like come out of a great looking college to this it's unbelievable if you had if you had a republican that came out and said look according to the statistics it certainly seems that people who go to college earn more and have have you know better long term jobs than people who don't go to school we should try to find a way to make college affordable i think most most people would agree would agree with that and even throw in you know technical school and and options like this but because it's president obama because it's someone who they have to run against you have to make the argument this is somebody who fundamentally misunderstands you know half of the country and i think that's been speaking to any i don't think the

argument about college i do think it sort of an emotional argument kind of makes me want to bring brick perry back because his you know his gaffes were a little bit more comical i mean i completely agree with this and it's it is very much that all you have to do is say president obama says this and how terrible is he people will clap without even thinking about it like that it took me a second to even sort of piece together the what a snob in the college education these guys jumped right on and i think they're jumping on it is the anti obama just rhetoric whatever it is yeah yeah i mean i get it but it just it starts to hit a certain point like i understand you're missing right now is to not. allow president obama to be reelected so everything has to be anti obama but a certain point we just start losing all roger take in attacking things like. letters but let's talk about you know i wanted to bring a couple financial elements into this. one hand student loan debt some people are saying that because it's become so high it's only helping contribute to the housing

crisis because you have people that might even graduate with a great degree might have a good job or they're making over one hundred thousand dollars a year but they now can't qualify for a mortgage so i mean do you think that's something that should have been predictable you know how do you tackle that i mean debt is always going to be a problem we've had rising in the us i mean how household that is one of the most significant problems in the housing market today so if you want to say that student debt is preventing people from being able to buy homes of course that's the case and i think that's. what what this really should get at is what are the things that are one of the reasons that education costs are going up because incomes are more a static but. education costs have risen over the past decade so one of the one of the causes of education going up that's the debate to have here you know i would art argue that you know the the fact that the federal government is spending so much money with this with the loan programs and trying to push everybody towards a college education a lot of people should be going to trade schools or community colleges that's

driven a lot of money that has inflated the cost of education that's the debate that we should be having here we all should know that not everybody should be buying a home right out of college with the as well like maybe these are not bad numbers maybe this is where the number should be you know that makes as you go let's talk about the debate then right because some of the factors that people are looking at as to why college tuition has been increasing as they say that well the more federal aid that university mike at that probably the less money they're going to give out on their own they figure they're going to let the federal government do the job there so i mean is that an argument against federal aid look i mean federal aid to a certain degree is a subsidy you are subsidizing call. education and you're theoretically going to get more of something that you subsidize but look i think i told you with everything we've just said but i also think we need to understand you know what is the problem with student debt it's not going to college is bad going to college is good the problem is that you have college inflation we should we should probably hope that student debt should go up quite a bit during the great recession because the opportunity cost of going to school

falls there's not a lot of jobs out there and so you go to school when you can otherwise get a job and you emerge in three years or two years or four years with these new skills and you can use those the economy is ramping up so i think that i do think the run up in student debt at least the last few years has some pretty significant silver linings but i agree there's there is a problem with college inflation i think it probably just has to do with the nature of school in the nature of the fact that we haven't found ways to introduce innovations and we still rely on one professor in front of a handful of students the same way aristotle and plato did two thousand years ago that's not a huge directivity advantage for two millennia we'll figure it out but we're not going to figure it out by switching out financial aid we should continue to subsidize people getting an education because that's a clear way to earn more later in a career what do you think. agree with a lot of where is going but i do think that financial aid is a big enough problem that by maintaining the federal system as it is right now that we're not going to be able to make those advances we're not going to be able to make those changes we're not going to have the incentives to change things as long

as more money just keeps getting shoveled in as a subsidy and that doesn't mean that tomorrow you turn off pell grants but it does mean that we need to step back and actually quantify measure what are the benefits to having the federal government having taken over federal student aid of a past couple of years are there measurable benefits in terms of outcomes in terms of the quality of education that people are getting if not then what happens when we peel that back does that mean that fewer people get into for your programs at the university of michigan than penn state perhaps but does that mean that they get kill level jobs community colleges and then are able to take some of those jobs that we don't have people for in the workforce today if. that's what we're going to i think that backing off is a step towards trying to make those innovations. is an important new debate i think the separation of church and. this is my sorry guys because i got to have this break so i got to wrap it up. some other time thanks so much for joining us and i thank you. i got to take a short break and we'll return.