it's. good thanks for being with us and happy prost the arm karen taraji with a quick look at your headlines syria's defined president vows to keep out what he calls foreign backed terrorists as washington dismisses a military attack other countries are withdrawing from the country over the violence between government forces and opposition fighters that's claimed thousands of lives. as president obama makes a move for a peaceful foreign policy and several war hungry politicians stick to their guns

calling for military action against iran this us senator john mccain also fueled the fire try calling for strikes against syria. plus why the metaphors and says the forty five million votes he won in the all watching is all the proof you needs after an independent group of russian observers claims the poll was flawed the league of voters reported cases of ballot stuffing and other violations but said it won't take the allegations to court. coming up peter lavelle and his guests discuss the tight relationship between israel and the united states that's in cross talk next on our. please. liz. liz. can. still.

go in welcome across talking to people about is it a case of wag the dog this is how some would characterize the current drumbeat for war against iran at the center of this campaign is the american israel political favors committee or a pact is attacking iran in america's interest or even israel. can stay slim. to cross out the tight relations between israel united states i'm joined by valerie and lindsay in washington she is the editor and principal researcher for iran watch also in washington we have or kittery he is a tenured professor of law at arizona state university and in jerusalem we go to my ordinary she is a freelance journalist and writer all right folks cross talk rules and if i don't use you can jump in anytime you want i very much encourage it i my if i go to you

first are a public opinion poll came out in israel last week it to found that nineteen percent of israelis favor attacking iran without american support and only forty two percent favor an attack on iran even if it has american support but at the same time a packer's in washington d.c. saying it's go to war go to war go to war as a path representing the interests of israel. and my opinion not at all and i think that you started with a brilliant question and it was something i wanted to bring up myself israeli public is not marching to war we're iraq meaning our defense minister and that's and yeah ok and then you have apac also which seems to be in the war camp here in israel those of us who live here who are citizens who you know are have a future a vested interest in this please we're not in a rush to go to war so ok we'll do in order i mean if i can add on to the public in israel and then in the washington post there's

a full page of major figures that were in the military intelligence sectors of the united states asking on virtually begging obama not to go to war to reconsider what is being floated into the public sphere for a drumbeat against iran i mean let's add those two together still continues to really pressure politicians in the united states to go to war almost to the point it's not it's not if it's when. you know i wouldn't agree with the characterization that it's a pack and particular leading the drumbeat for war i think what iran has done is put the international community in an untenable position iran has international legal obligations that it's flouting yukiya amano they head of the i.a.e.a. has said that iran is working on military dimensions of a nuclear program and this i think back to the door and i think everybody should

really be here to be fair the i.a.e.a. says it has concerns it didn't say it is it has concerns words are important here when it comes to going to war and i'm sorry go ahead you want to jump in there miles i add to that that the american and. yeah the american intelligence agencies if i'm not mistaken they have agreed that iran seems to have stopped building a nuclear weapon around two thousand and three and has not resumed this program so i mean let's say that iran continues its nuclear program if it doesn't want a weapon what's the problem with having nuclear energy say is this an issue i mean and then also i mean let's say they do want to build a weapon i mean mutual deterrence will keep everybody was going to mutual the toronto am i wrong ok there you traditionally former get a better outcome because you know you just it was more a she hasn't said anything yet on the program did you want to jump in there. i did

i think that that we don't want to get we don't want we don't want to a lot we don't want to iraq allow iran to get in a position where it would have a nuclear weapon capability i don't think that's a world that anyone wants the americans or the israelis and i think that is why there is this sort of increased attention to iran at this point because there's a sense that if we don't do anything soon iran will be in the position to make a nuclear weapon when it decides to do so it will have that what we call a great talent capability and that is what we want to prevent ok well if i can stay with you you know before i got into television i was an academic historian and you know when the soviets got a nuclear weapon there was all this all this great hysteria and then when the chinese did there was all this hysteria there's going to be the third world war and then i'm going to go back to what maya said the whole concept of deterrence i mean why is the islamic republic of iran different then the hysteria that was around the soviet union around china around let's say well there's an islamic country in the

world that has a nuclear weapon and that's that pakistan i mean what is it the thing is that i guess i worry about and i fall back doored on this one here is the more you go down the path of war the more it will make your rand want to have a weaponized. nucular device and i mean that logically gets all twisted up i had ordered in washington. well you know it's going to work sure a couple things first of all i have the quote from the i.a.e.a. in front of me and they say the report says there's information available to the agency indicating that iran has carried out activities that are relevant to the development of a nuclear explosive device if you read through the report i think it is clear that iran is working on all three aspects of the nuclear explosive device weaponization and richmond which is the hardest part and also a delivery system why are we particularly concerned about iran because this is a government that well may not be the terrible whatever you have in the fight if it

is still around of that word what evidence do you have about what that's an interesting statement this is a government. this is a government with a messianic apocalyptic like the soviet communism and a government also well you know the soviet the soviet communists were atheists they didn't believe that. chaos would help agreeing a better world in the world to come ok i don't mind if i could you've been here for my wedding so these people are gone i don't have a death wish they want to be completely obliterated right i mean is there anything in the history of the islamic republic to give you an idea of if there were allowing to risk everything. because what they want to protect most is a regime that's what seems to me ok yeah my thinking yeah i'm going to somebody you know really i don't mind if they're i mean definitely kristen zion is that are you know. you know rabid supporters of israel i

mean they definitely have the messianic features to you and i don't hear anyone saying that oh the christian zionists didn't have any you know powers so i mean i don't generally like to see anything rolled up on you and you don't want to bring this into the conversation. ok valerie i'm sure there is no matter where you join me in the service no reason was already i want to have valerie stearns go ahead please i think we need to let's leave aside the nature of the iranian regime and just look at what would happen if iran were in a position where it had nuclear weapons we're talking about an issue an inheritance problem if there's any kind of instability in the country what happens to the weapons we're talking about the reaction of other countries in the region who are going to want to develop nuclear nuclear capability or even nuclear weapons of their own it's already quite unstable region so i think there are a lot of dynamics here that are incredibly worrisome for israel in the united states weaving aside the nature of the rani and regime which is worrisome ok or

what about israel's nuclear weapons program kind of a moot point because i understand why you go ahead right. this is kind of a moot point because i understand that there is a ronnie a nuclear program that if there was a strike that it would set back the program it wouldn't end the program so i mean you know if anything striking iran might then make a self-fulfilling prophecy that we say oh they want to destroy us they want to destroy is they're going to destroy us and then we do a preemptive strike which only encourages them to escalate their program so i mean they've already got a lot of their fill those shoes i just got a ok my understanding is that ok my interest to the capacity. of my question that i was going to give door go ahead you want to respond to what mike just said there. sure those who call for a military strike on iran and i don't call from the terry strike on iran at least at this time point to the example of israel strike on the iraqi reactor which set

the iraqi program back so far that was never reconstituted and also the israeli strike on the syrian reactor which set the syrian program back so far that it is yet to be reconstituted so there is something to be said for setting programs back for buying time ok valorie so if you think you iran is like the syrians in the iraqi brigade exactly and the thing is that i mean valid if i can ask you if there is a military strike against around that's open war and there are consequences of that for the region or a remains and an arms race could ensue after that i mean isn't that another law of unintended consequences that are not being thought about here. yeah i mean the iranian response to any kind of a military attack on its nuclear facilities is very hard to predict but we can we can assume that there will be one some a symmetrical to a large extent but there will be one and this sort of unpredictable element makes it i would say and everyone agrees that you know an option of last resort i believe

that obama was right in his speech at apac to say that the diplomatic options have not been exhausted and i think that now coming into the summer we're going to have really crippling sanctions that are going to be put in place on iran and the negotiations that happen during this period are going to happen in that context of incredible economic pain in iran so i think there is still a transfer of diplomacy but it's it's a small it's the window is closing i think that's the message that benjamin netanyahu brought to washington and i think it's an accurate one ok or trance like netanyahu said the windows already closed and he goes all right go ahead my keep going head to head in jerusalem. sorry and that's a young themselves speaking to an australian periodical in january and that's in the senate saying sins are working so i'm not you know too keen on on trusting anything netanyahu says because he's speaking out of both sides of his mouth you know in january the same things are working now in march suddenly they're not

working and he's you know pressuring to get this hardline from obama so i mean do we really want to listen to what netanyahu says about the sanctions the sanctions are working the sanctions are working they're having a significant effect on the iranian economy but there's a race basically between the sanctions and the iranian nuclear program which is moving forward despite the sanctions i agree with president obama that it is too risky to contemplate containment of an iranian regime and if you read between the lines of what i had to say the price of an iranian of a nuclear armed iran may be higher than the price of stopping iran from acquiring nuclear weapons all right we're going to go to she cause ok number of states in the region depend on a clear in what they play until choir nuclear weapons next all right we're going to go to a short break and after about a short break we'll continue our discussion on obama's rhetoric on iran space r.t.

. ship would be soo much brighter if you knew about some funds to pressure. starts on t. dot com. which

. welcome back across the time people about to remind you we're talking about president barack obama's speech.

ok valerie i'd like to go back to you in that ad that was in the washington post and it stated that not every challenge has a military solution and unless we or an ally is attacked war should be the last last option. do you see that in the air i mean it seems to me and in i remember two thousand and three very well it seems to me there's a drumbeat to war the american media has been saturated for decades of being very anti-american i mean remarkably never a pew public opinion poll says that americans think iran is the most threatening country to the united states as much as patently absurd ok it seems to me that you know we have a lot of military people intelligence people very worried about the consequences of a military conflict but you see that really diplomacy is being taken seriously because at that apec meeting a promise he wasn't high on the agenda i did promise he was a highly agenda but i wouldn't say that you know u.s.

lawmakers are not aware that a policy is important or another aspect of the diplomacy which is the sanctions track. man who is the chair of the house foreign affairs committee has been pushing a number of different bills through trying to get bills through congress that would strengthen sanctions close loopholes etc so i think you know there is a sense in the united states among policymakers that there are still things we can do to cripple the iranian economy further ok when you think about that or do you think the diplomacy is still taken seriously. i think diplomacy is taken very seriously look you just have to look at barack obama who told the iranians that if they would unclench their fist they would find an extended hand and for a year president obama did not ramp up sanctions it was made clear to the iranians that there was a wonderful offer on the table and in fact the offer as i understand it is still on the table the obama administration would be quite willing to sit down with the iranians but the iranians have shown no interest in talking no interest in making

meaningful concessions what do you think about that mine do you think that the iranians that are not interested in diplomacy ok well i don't think they're interested in a military conflict either there's obviously much much weaker than israel as a regional power and the united states as a superpower i mean anyone has to just look at a map and the number of american bases that surround iran and you have a free to decide if i mean it is and there's not some and there's no cemetery here whatsoever i don't see any interest of the iranians want to have a military conflict my own what about diplomacy i mean do you think the political elite in israel really are interested in diplomacy. well i actually want to make a comment on these words that or it is you know interest if i'm not mistaken iran did actually send a letter recently indicating that it is interested in talking so i don't know about these words no interest first of all second of all i think that diplomacy can work i mean we do need to think about the price that the iranian people will pay i

understand that there are you know the price of basic food stuffs is going way way up you know and we don't want to starve the population that's not the correct thing to do. i recognize you know that there are concerns about a nuclear iran but the people should not have to pay the price and what's really interesting to me about this conversation about seeing sins in diplomacy is that israel is in violation of plenty of international laws you know is violating the human and civil rights the palestinians on a daily basis and where is the discussion about same sions in diplomacy you know around that to me the iran issue represents to some extent you know any attempt to to point over here you know hey everyone look over there look at iran so you know israel can continue building settlements house demolitions home demolitions in the west bank are up this year above the two thousand and eleven level which was the highest that it's ever been so we're already seeing an escalation you know under the cover of the iran and the elections israel is doing what it wants to do is that

are you saying that if israel would start building settlements that iran would stop with its nuclear program are you implying that that's the motivation for iran's nuclear program. well i what i think is from what you know what you know what i mean it's a very interesting thing that it's a very interesting thing at the apec meeting there wasn't any way that i'm aware of any mention of the peace process and i think in there's a great it's very interesting for western media particularly american media to change the subject here because i mean it's claimed that the president of iran said israel should be wiped off the map of the world of the earth but i mean the and the israelis are wiping the palestinians off the map that would i would say but let's go back to the iranians they really are not wiping the palestinians off the map i've asked the palestinians that but we're not talking about do that issue here right now or if i can go either way i know you're going to be wiped off the face and go ahead go ahead where's the peace can can we go back and look around you know if you know this is the response and gauge went on diplomacy i mean i think i think

i'm to come back to something that miles said i think iran has traditionally and this let's let's be clear there have been diplomatic efforts going on for eight nine ten years trying to get iran to roll back its program iran has been offered a number of different economic and political goodies including to some extent nuclear concessions so i think iran has used the diplomatic track essentially delay added still its nuclear program has continued now the next set of negotiations that may come about in the next weeks and months are going to take place in the context of iran so economy is suffering and serious sanctions are going to be put in place that may change iran's calculation as it goes into the negotiations but in the past in the past nearly a decade iran has not been a good partner when it's come to diplomatic negotiations that's just a fact when you think about that maya. your means are not good partners well i want to say again what i already said that and that the american intelligence agencies

believe that iran stopped building a weapon in two thousand and three and so the question again that i don't believe anyone is answering for me is what would be the problem with an iranian nuclear program that is first civilian target is this an issue and why is it ok that other i know countries in the region have nuclear weapons yeah why is that we talked about a regional. go ahead valorie will jump in that's the whole point of the program go ahead when. you run u.s. intelligence says that iran has suspended or frozen its nuclear weapons program it's talking about a very small part of an overall nuclear weapons program it's talking about weaponization we're going to zation and delivering the wife and i are about ten percent of the overall sort of effort that's required to make nuclear weapons overwhelmingly the most important aspect is making nuclear fuel and why iran is doing now on the ground out of forty five primes and ford is essentially creating a stockpile of fuel they could be quickly enriched to weapons grade for breakout

capability or to find out you what if the proposal of having a nuclear free zone for the entire region meaning israel opens up its nuclear arsenal for inspection do you think that would be a comp that could be on the table for diplomacy i mean that's fair isn't it transparent isn't it. i think i think that's a very interesting idea and obviously the nuclear nonproliferation treaty review conference call for a conference in two thousand and twelve on that very topic moving forward towards a nuclear weapons free zone in the region the israelis have always stated that they support such an idea and concept but that such an idea can only be invented in the context of a comprehensive peace in the region and i believe that that's the u.s. position as well well that sounds kind of ridiculous to me i mean if you everyone has to disarm and then you will have the one party left saying you know what will

actually be they had him on for the region what do you think about that mind you think the israeli public opinion would go for that you know you show our we'll show our cards you show your cards i mean without build any confidence within israeli society. i don't think so i think that i mean forget about what is really society wide so we need to talk about what the leaders want because i feel at this point that that i mean as someone who lives here and is a citizen and drinks the water and pays taxes i feel like i'm on a roller coaster ride right now but i don't know what these leaders are going to do and what they're going to drag the whole country into you and perhaps america as well so i mean forget about what society wants let's talk about what the leaders and the leaders here i don't think are interested in a peace process you know we said something earlier someone said something earlier about that iran using diplomacy as a way to stall and i think that absolutely applies to israel as well i mean diplomacy has bought israel time to build more settlements to you know really clamp

down on gaza the blockade on gaza which is cruel and inhumane and so no i don't think that you know israel will disarm if we have peace i mean it's not it's not going to happen we won't have peace. before israel disarms it's a catch twenty two bit valerie what do you think the next step is i mean how worried are you that there will be a military strike against iran. i think that we're entering a period now which will be critical it will depend i think to a large extent on the type of sanctions that are put in place in the next say six months or so and it will depend on it iran's approach at the negotiating table because i think there will be some type of some type of talks i think a year from now we're going to be looking at iran with a with a pretty serious breakout capability and it's not clear to me that israel or the united states is going to be able to accept ok or i'm going to give you a lot i do think you know after following this it oh i was going to ask one last

question before we went out of time here is israeli and american interests identical in dealing with iran in your opinion is it wag the dog. well i think they're both very very concerned about iran's nuclear program you know if you look at president obama's interview with the atlantic last week he was asked what would your peak position be on iran's nuclear program if israel isn't weren't in the picture he said it would still be a profound national security interest of the united states to prevent iran from getting a nuclear weapon the one difference i think between the two countries is in terms of timing the united states wants to give more time for leading sanctions to bring iran to the table for serious concessions and israel is concerned because they don't they may not have the military capability in six months to stop iran's program and so i think there's kind of a calendar issue between the two countries all right we have

a little bit more time valerie what do you think about i mean how aligned are israel united states here i personally can't see how iran is a really big threat to the united states maybe except for maybe alleged proliferation. i think that israel and the united states are more or less aligned in terms of their on their sort of the way they ascertain the threat i think it's really a question as or instead of how to deal with that threat and the time in which you have to let it come with you and sanctions work and the time at which you decide that you know military strike is necessary all right thank you very much to all of you for an interesting thing discussion many thanks my guest today in washington and in jerusalem and thanks for viewers for watching us here to see you next time and remember.