eleven thirty am in moscow these iraqi headlines un members agreed to soften his statement on syria with moscow ready to put its weight behind a resolution with no end to the regime alternating. russia's u.n. envoy warns nato woods too soon to pull out of afghanistan is the mission there has not yet been finished he stresses the country is still plagued by insurgency and drug production. and the u.k.'s short military strength of the disputed falkland islands almost three decades after the war has argentinians preaching against what they call revive colonialism it's also claims it's being rod with britain said

sixteen billion barrels of oil from under their nose. up next we explore ways out of the serious stalemate in our debate show crosstalk stay with us. wealthy british science. sometimes. markets finance scandals. find out what's really happening to the global economy in the kinds of reports on our t.v. . can still. blowing a welcome across our computor all about syria and the law of unintended consequences

as the syrian civil war grinds on calls for an outside military intervention grow louder and louder while at the same time there is ample evidence that foreign countries and groups are already waging a clandestine war in the country it is hard to see a peaceful end to this conflict particularly for the people on the ground that. can still. to cross talk a civil war in syria i'm joined by rod one day in washington he's a visiting scholar at the institute for middle east studies at the elliott school of international affairs at george washington university also in washington we go to jacob hornberger he is founder and president of the future of freedom foundation and in new york we have to leave well alone he is the united nations director at human rights watch all right gentlemen crosstalk rosenfeld that means you can jump in anytime you want jacob if i can go to you first i didn't watching the syrian

conflict and american british t.v. western media in general and it's basically good guys and bad guys so can you explain to me who the good guys are and who are the bad guys are because we have a regime that's killing its own people and we have an armed insurrection resorting to terrorism so please tell me who are the good guys and the bad guys. well i think it's always difficult to tell in this kind of situation i mean you've got a dictatorship there and traditionally a dictatorship is the bad guys i mean there's there's traditionally nothing good about a dictatorship and this happens to be one of the most brutal dictatorships in the world you've got an armed insurrection and that as i understand it human rights watch is now accused of some major human rights atrocities. what are the issues involved here i would be the last one to to be an expert in that area i have always taken the position in my foundation has taken the position that this is a problem for the syrians to resolve civil war is never a nice beautiful little thing with nice beautiful outcomes that the u.s.

ought to stay out of this thing and just leave this to be resolved by the syrians one way or the other if you've already come out on that and one in new york i mean again we have to go ahead because again we have this kind of it's kind of bipolar you know good guys. i mean we. yes we have no documented major atrocities against the opposition which we did is yesterday we sent a letter to the syrian national council raising some issues with we've started the committee some cases of abuse by opposition forces it's not clear how much control the syrian national color counts here of the free syria army have over them but you know there's been a few instances where the activists have you know summary executive people may be tortured kidnapped so there are a couple of programs there and we think the syrian national council should speak

out even though they don't necessarily control of these people but of course you need to put that back into perspective and put the armed opposition and the same level as the government government forces for for your own have committed mass atrocities committed with the things that we think are crimes against humanity and they've killed thousands of people they've detained. hundreds of people in some cases they've killed children they tortured children they've used mines at the border oh so you know you have a. few instances that are disturbing and should be addressed but only a few instances of abuse by your position forces and the other government and that's that's waging a brutal campaign against its own people ok redlining in if i go to you in washington i mean it to what degree are opposition figures in groups in syria

committing atrocities particularly if they're getting outside help and there's ample evidence that there is a question help for the opposition in syria do they have blood on their hands to. let me correct here there is an art to the city is committed by those syrian national council or the free syrian army this is a humorous way nations and we are going to stand we did receive the letter and i just back arrested last week from geneva we're actually we met with the commission of inquiry on the commissioner for human rights and we are fully corbett with all do see him or eyes very lesions committed by their fifty or other. groups even down so we don't feel the house responsibility saying they don't control but this for me let me clarify two things this this. by the crimes against humanity we're actually systematic and weisbrot committed by the assad regime for almost a year and the international community did nothing for us. there are so delusional

you know i mean in china why should the us why your traditional unity is not seen why should the international community do something for you why will it make things better this is of course because it would make things better because a two thousand and five. according to the five thousand and five united nation. summit which words which what the responsibility for what's called that. their responsibility to protect when i state that actually committed the crimes against humanity genocide war crimes they're sponsoring thousand international community who have the responsibility to work toward and enforce crimes against humanity so much it is a national priority not allowed for other one down or other crimes against humanity continue in syria well this is me as you know it's a few days there have been for those three countries in the world all these should be intervened into jacob if i can go back to you the west is supporting the

opposition so there is nothing to do here legally and you should be out there but i go back to washington jacob the west is supporting one side in a civil war so violence begets violence how can that possibly resolve it's not a peace i'm going to stay here again in washington and right now easing or head shake up. well you know let's put things in perspective when the u.s. government kidnapped a canadian citizen in dulles airport and just was trying to decide what country to rendition to him to for the purpose of torture which regime did they select to do that they selected in that case the syrian regime so they have absolutely nothing against dictatorships as long as the dictatorship is doing what they're there bidding i mean look at look at egypt's military dictatorship i mean you know that's one of the most groups dictatorships in the world as well we've been funneling billions of dollars to that dictatorship for decades we're continuing to funnel

money that dictatorship so there's a lot of hypocrisy going on here when we talk about u.s. foreign policy we're really not talking about freedom democracy we're talking about putting regimes in there will become loyal members of the us empire who will do their bidding when they need it that's where the hypocrisy comes into this feel of it one of the things that is that again going back to this kind of binary coverage and you know i excuse me i'm going to sleep and in new york right now filipe we have media that has this kind of binary view of the good guys bad guys here but we haven't there is the assad regime does have popular support to what degree we don't really know because media coverage there is very limited but the alawite certainly support him and other minority support him it's not black and white he does have some popular support and those people want to keep their privilege and their lives and livelihoods are mostly. yeah and i work problem is no it's really with is like

a. problem with the massive human rights violations his regime has been committed for for commuting from months now it's been a year it's over a thousand people who died and you know you were also unwell so. well sign. of the country was i have any other country right now that was really going to live all of the usual through the eight thousand is on those is because there is no evidence yet where the evidence is you know as i gather there were researchers talking to victims is that the overwhelming number of casualties peaceful civilians people who were simply demonstrating and the. base night security forces or militias. as the government would like you to believe the large number of policemen all members of the military even though we acknowledged that some have been i've been killed but of course it's no excuse. to shoot at children or should

you know i thought we men and did you know the international community has a responsibility to protect the syrian people and frankly right now the problem is not what we call the international community right now the problem is that russia and china in the u.n. security council have been blocking significant action from months and months and that's the reason why when the thing is the reason is why is it why should the international community quote unquote nato and its allies led by the united states determine which machine should rule and which should not run when if i go to you how would you describe the opposition in syria these jeffersonian democrats or are they some people are they religious fanatics do they want to the sunni's are being supported by saudi arabia eccentrics cetera i mean it's not black and white the there's a lot of oppositions in syria. yes fair starch least

is see someone said that our censor board off last night did he seem now the syrians has been killed actually by a russian woman so we're actually that russia continue backing down so that he might know when the time yesterday when activists actually he sent them in. to me some for it was we had actually it's a woman's just made by russia to resume those r.c.d. and this has never seemed. going to the other nations the sort this is why reports humanitarian aid for the syrian people under a united nations security council resolution this is at the same time here jake if i could just very interesting you know you change the border to jake is this all just about regime change geopolitical advantage in your opinion it's not about human rights. of course not this is the great game where the people of different administrations there are trying to get their people in a public office it just happens to be a foreign regime where they're trying to do that i mean i think the one of the

important things to recognize about what's going on in syria is is that when you have a dictatorship it shows that the only way you're going to be able al said dictatorship you know since there's no democracy is by through violence there is no other way and that if people take that step and jefferson pointed out in the declaration of independence that that's a step that people should take very cautiously because revolutions and civil wars end up with a lot of death and destruction and but it's up to the syrians to make that call once you get foreign intervention there and you've got u.s. bombs dropping in missiles dropping you're going to see a lot more people killed people that may very well say this is not what we call for and so it's not up to the u.s. government to be cavalier or say we can kill as many people as we want to bring you democracy like they did in iraq ok gentlemen i'm going to jump in here and go to a break and after that short break we'll continue with syrian scenario stay with arkie. take

you. to excuse. well look. it's not all stunning james as barcelona host the biggest tech gathering of the year in this digitized world stage connections like never before and a whole host of new services leads me to believe it is now only a quick call right away. but don't get lost in the crowd with one russian blog that proves all the stereotypes wrong technology here on our team. coverage.

to keep you. want to. welcome back across the computer about the mind we're talking about what awaits siri. can. read while in washington i'd like to ask you do you support a western military intervention into syria to topple the regime of assad let's to be clear actually no one is. bracing in his own country if you like to have any intervention saying that you like the last cd you were chairing and there's a trend in syria that's my question that's may continue my answer but i would like

your answer when i got a answer i said my students you know you have served my question would you like to see a western military international have seen are in iraq so you're saying you know me and you say someone's off the seat and i was saying started i don't doubt her questions like. why not it's a very simple. i have to try to answer your question as i am seeing my respective go ahead you have to give me some time to do doubt or otherwise apologize for going to cement you sure you know but answer the question that's why you're here yeah i'm on sitting and of course your head. you know what no one syrian is accepted or like to have for an intervention in his own country when they see they're not rising started in line in march last year last year they see the n.b.a. it has six or seven months calling against any military intervention but after the

crimes against humanity continue in syria and everybody they have an options they need they have their eye program themselves no one will accept actually the people the civilians that we killed the children into we killed what's happening in cairo is a poor one we're actually i said really shows us such a b. how they came and slatter the children more than four to six children i would very likely want to know what your life in yours is why would you lie you know international i mean to do what would you like the international community to do then syria their international community here they have their responsibility to protect this what is that the survey what does that mean they have to stop all this ground and using the money what they're syrians called to be in in their saves on and i how it should be protected by a limited no fly zone signal to the area are is actually what they're seeing and

they are have been calling for us for a month why would you want to no fly zone when the syrian government is not using planes or helicopters it doesn't make any sense you know they used a clip they use their brains. in other places but they of course they don't have the missiles coming from the airplanes but they shelled the cities and the areas from their planes ok fine this is where you see you know your you know if you think on our blog you this is really the military intervention will correct and the human rights violation will just make things worse violence begets violence ok and then we could become internationalized which i'd like to move the conversation to that because the words lebanese ation militarisation go together right here we have a country that could collapse and bring in its neighbors because all the neighbors have a certain peace a certain idea of what they want the geopolitical order to be if there is a regime change. well as a human rights organization we are for military intervention in syria and we are

that against it either and we are aware of the debates around that and the hard and tough questions that this brings but short of military intervention there is still the international community can do to try and end the violence and there is a u.n. the u.n. security council can do i mean it's been a year zero eight thousand people dead and not a single resolution passed by the security council the security council at this stage should impose sanctions targeted sanctions on the syrian leadership involved in the violence it should have imposed an arms embargo it could have referred. to the intellectual criminal court so there is a lot of the security council should do and there's no and for the simple reason that russia and china know is this is this legal reason is called the simple reason it's called libya ok jake i think this is one of the things that's really tragic

about the whole situation because there is a civil war in in syria right now and it by i agree with you they're going to have to resolve it themselves one way or another but it was the entire precedent of libya that is really done this because great powers like russia and china will say ok now you can take another country you don't like and you'll change regime which one will be next that is the logic of how the this is the live the situation in in libya played out in the russians and the chinese and others are seeing the same thing. absolutely i mean they they create these un resolutions that are supposedly tightly constrained but as soon as they're approved their language is very used to justify anything and what is part of this was this humanitarian intervention in libya which ends up with a regime that is just as bad as the previous regime and so when you have these kind of internal revolutions and civil wars there's no way to predict the outcome it's

like it's like riding a wild tiger you just don't know where it's going to end up in syria the rebels want to get rid of this dictatorship that's why they're rebelling the dictatorship is saying we're not going how do you resolve that kind of conflict. seems to me there is no resolution except through continued violence or unless somebody gives up and as of right now nobody is ready to give up but humanitarian intervention military intervention libya it's only going to fuel the fire it's only going to make things worse it's going to bring more death and destruction when in washington what do you think about that what's the end game what would you like to see happen because it's quite possible that syria could end up being partitioned because you do have minority groups that do not want to be ruled by sudanese they fear for their life they would be ethnic cleansing and is a matter of fact most western interventions over the last decade have ended with terrorism ethnic cleansing and a lot of instability and violence and regimes not particularly friendly to the west

by the way. there is no actually an islamic conflict in syria as experience in syria the syrian uprising or the sierra revolution in biology and sectarian groups we have i like in the leadership of this in c. we have we have christiane we have dollars and we handle situations and everybody is even gotten so laid out we are actually the rules are considered concentrated and in different areas we are actually there christiane have been asked to see we think also in the uprising there is no sixty area and this is one when the good thing said this in ceded when established not on the security and b. is not to be them state has been in iraq on in iran before we have actually coalition of different political parties not under secretary and beers or beers rather of the people who are supporting democracy and dignity and human eyes for

the syrian people and this is their goal or has to be achieved by by this year and we will after all of the sticker prices i don't think the syrian people will accept for that so there is going to continue rolling the country with on his a lot of drugs in his hand and the crimes against humanity i shall i said should who hold accountable and the international criminal court for the concept is humanity welcoming to the ears of the syrian people you feel when you think the west is going to get tired of nation building i mean in the last decade here i can't think of any one that is worked out very well ok and it seems that this is again where using the military to create a new society is that make any sense to you because it seems that every time we keep trying to do it we end up with an unintended consequence that's how i started the program. absolutely i mean things are just so worse than ever you look at how many people were killed in iraq now what to put in a brutal regime there that by the way is more pro iran than they are pro u.s.

and then here in afghanistan finally people i mean you see conservatives are now the thought of finally calling for the end of the occupation came years of occupation this is a good sign but a little too late ok philip i mean what are your concerns about what the opposition is doing in syria because again we have very limited information in the media your organization may have more insight here i mean is the opposition getting stronger in this use of force and fair enough maybe in self-defense but i mean there are arms going in there there is there's a very strong evidence that the opposition is being trained by outsiders i mean it's just the the spiral of violence is getting worse and worse ok i mean is this a major concern that you have right now because this is i mean a lot of people don't like to use the word civil war but i think it looks like a civil war now. well folks for many months in the opposition was overwhelmingly peaceful it's and you have to being shut out for months and months

and seeing people killed or old and that some people have taken up arms and indeed you know we have documented a few cases that are worrying affects traditional executive and the use of torture but again you know the overwhelming majority of the violence is still coming from the us government right now and the problem is that is not really feeling the enough international pressure because with russia it has a very powerful ally and it has a powerful ally that protects him in the security calcio against any significance you know pressure. on them bogglingly coming from human rights watch me to say arming let me ask you a measure is regime is committing mass such as you think do you think they should know if there is still russia was attempting to pressure the assad reaction to give a clear to him that it's not ok to bomb civilian neighborhoods why can't we have the right dialogue children can we have the right dialogue the side of syria the

wrong way philip jr be more dialogue should now would be the an international community should be supporting dialogue inside of syria and not giving arms and training it should be dialogue. well a little political organization which we do is really document human rights violations so i would priority right now is really to tell china and to tell rachelle to stop supporting the syrian regime the syrian government needs to feel the pressure of the pressure of the u.n. security council so right now the russian government. the regime and there's a speedy trial. as we speak now a resolution is being discussed towards that end here jake i'm going to give you the last word in the program here is the what's your prognosis it's going to get far far worse before it gets better i don't know i think it's always impossible to predict these sorts of things hopefully it'll get better but again i just don't see an end game for this one of these things we just watch it play out and hope for the

best but in the meantime i just reiterate that keep the u.s. out of this because all they do is just make things worse all right gentlemen we've run out of time very spirited debate many thanks to my guest today in washington and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here already so you next time remember rostock rules. ok. you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else you hear or see some other part of it and realized everything you thought you knew going into our pockets was a big check.