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blowing and welcome across stark i'm peter lavelle syria and the law of unintended consequences as the syrian civil war grinds on calls for an outside military intervention grows louder and louder while at the same time there is ample evidence that foreign countries in groups are already waging a clandestine war in the country it is hard to see a peaceful end to this conflict particularly for the people on the ground. keep the. streets. to cross back to civil war in syria i'm joined by rod one busy day in washington he's a visiting scholar at the institute for middle east studies at the elliott school of international affairs at george washington university also in washington we go to jacob hornberger he is founder and president of the future of freedom foundation and in new york we have the lead looking on he is the united nations director at

human rights watch all right gentlemen crosstalk rosenfeld that means you can jump in anytime you want jacob if i can go to you first i've been watching the syrian conflict on american british t.v. western media in general and it's basically good guys and bad guys so can you explain to me who the good guys are and who are the bad guys are because we have a regime that's killing its own people and we have an armed insurrection resorting to terrorism so please tell me who are the good guys in the bad guys. well i think it's always difficult to tell in this kind of situation i mean you've got a dictatorship there and traditionally a dictatorship is the bad guys i mean there's there's traditionally nothing good about a dictatorship and this happens to be one of the most brutal dictatorships in the world you've got an armed insurrection and that as i understand it human rights watch is now accused of some major human rights atrocities. and what are the issues involved here i would be the last one to be an expert in that area i have always

taken the position in my foundation has taken the position that this is a problem for the syrians to resolve civil war is never a nice beautiful little thing with nice beautiful outcomes that the u.s. ought to stay out of this thing and just leave this to be resolved by the syrians one way or the other philip or do you come out on that in one in new york i mean again we have to go ahead because again we have this kind of it's kind of bipolar you know good guys i'd like to come in. yeah we have no documented major atrocities against the opposition which we did is yesterday we sent a letter to the syrian national council raising some issues we've we've started the committee some cases of abuse by opposition forces it's not clear how much control see an actual code cults here or the free syria army have over them but you know there's been a few instances where back to this have you know summary executive people may be

tortured kidnapped. so there are a couple of problems there and we think the syrian national council should speak out even though they don't necessarily control of these people but of course you need to put that back into perspective this includes the armed opposition and the same level as the government government forces for for your own have committed mass atrocities they have committed which we think we think are crimes against humanity they've killed her thousands of people they've detained. hundreds of people in some cases they've killed children they tortured children they've used mines at the border oh so you know you have a. few instances that are disturbing and should be addressed but only a few instances of abuse because the shin forces and the other government that's a that's waging

a brutal campaign against its own people ok redlining in if i go to you in washington i mean it can wipe agree our opposition figures in groups in syria committing atrocities occasionally if they're getting outside help and there's ample evidence that there is quote unquote death and help for the opposition in syria do they have blood on their hands to. let me correct here there is not just at this committee but by those syrian national council or the free syrian army this is a human rights violations. and we did receive the letter and i just about crestor last week from geneva we had actually we met with the commission of inquiry on the commissioner for human rights and we are fully called buried with all this you more eyes very lesions committed by their thirty or other. groups even down so we don't feel their house responsibility so they don't control it but still to me let me clarify that we're seeing this this group roshan by the ground thank you soo many

t. we're actually systematic and weisbrot committed by there are so good reason for almost a year and the international community did not think for us. there are so delusional you are only showing why should they do this why you international community is not saying why should the international community do something for you why make things better this is of course because it will make things better because a two thousand and five. to five thousand and five united nation. summit which words would swell the responsibility for what's called. their responsibility to protect when i state that actually committed the crimes against humanity genocide war crimes there is a possibility of the international community to have the responsibility to report the world and enforce crime to a case in the many solution and international community not allowed for other aligned our other crimes against humanity continue in syria well this is me as you

know st louis stanford university countries you know we are old and all these should be intervened into jacob if i can go back to you the west is supporting the opposition so there is nothing to do you only going to get me out are going to go back to washington jacob the west is supporting one side in a civil war so violence begets violence how can that possibly resolve itself i'm going to stay here and in washington and right now. well you know let's put things in perspective when the u.s. government kidnapped a canadian citizen in dulles airport and this was trying to decide what country to rendition to him to for the purpose of torture. did they select to do that they selected in that case the syrian regime so they have absolutely nothing against dictatorships as long as the dictatorship is doing what their their bidding we look

at look at egypt's military dictatorship i mean you know that's one of the most brutal dictatorships in the world as well we've been funneling billions of dollars to that dictatorship for decades we're continuing to funnel money to that dictatorship so there's a lot of hypocrisy going on here when we talk about u.s. foreign policy we're really not talking about freedom democracy we're talking about putting regimes in there will become loyal members of the us empire and will do their bidding when they need it that's where the hypocrisy comes into this feel of it one of the things is that again going back to this kind of binary coverage and you know i excuse me i'm going to sleep in in new york right now we have media that has this kind of binary view of the good guys bad guys here but we haven't there is the assad regime does have popular support to what degree we don't really know because media coverage there is very limited but the alawite certainly support him and other minority support him it's not blocking why he does have some popular support and those people want to keep their privilege and their lives and

livelihoods are mostly. yeah and i were problem is no it's really with is like a book at last report the problem is with the massive human rights violations is regime has been committed for for commuting from on snow it's been there you know it's over a thousand people who died and you know you were also unwell so they are not signed on well side. of the country of another country right now that was really going to leave all of the official to the eight thousand years of this is because there is no evidence yet where the evidence is you know as gather there were researchers talking to victims is that the overwhelming number of casualties are peaceful civilians its people are simply demonstrating and have been shut out. of the security forces or militias. as the government would like you to believe

a large number of policemen. of the military even though we acknowledged that some have been killed but of course it's no excuse to to to to shoot at children or should you know at women and indeed you know the international community has a responsibility to protect the syrian people and frankly right now the problem is not what we call the international community right now the problem is that russia and china in the u.n. security council have been blocking significant action film aunts and moans and that's the reason why you know all in the thing as the reason is why is that why should the international community quote unquote nato and its allies led by the united states determine which machine should rule and which should not run when if i go to you how would you describe the opposition in syria are these jeffersonian democrats or are they some people are they religious fanatics do they want to the sunni's are being supported by saudi arabia eccentrics cetera i mean it's not black

and white the there's a lot of oppositions in syria. it's fair starch least is see some wants about the russian support off the assad regime now they're syrians has been killed actually by russian women so it actually that russia continue backing down so the regime i know with the aid on yesterday when activist actually he sent him in concern for those who had actually it's a woman's just made by russia and china could get him those r.c.d. and this was after seems russia is going to the admissions the survey says why i support humanitarian aid for the syrian people under a united nations security council resolution this is at the same time you jacob if i could just very interesting you know you're saying supporting jake is this all just about regime change geo political advantage in your opinion it's not about human rights. of course not this is the great game where the people of different

administrations there are trying to get their people into public office it just happens to be a foreign regime where they're trying to do that i mean i think that one of the important things to recognize about what's going on in syria is is that when you have a dictatorship it shows that the only way you're going to be able to oust said dictatorship you know since there's no democracy is by through violence there's no other way and that if people take that step and jefferson pointed out in the declaration of independence that that's a step that people should take very cautiously because revolutions and civil wars end up with a lot of death and destruction and but it's up to the syrians to make that call once you get foreign intervention there and you've got u.s. bombs dropping in missiles dropping you're going to see a lot more people killed people that may very well say this is not what we call for and so it's not up to the u.s. government to be cavalier or say we can kill as many people as we want to bring you democracy like they did in iraq ok gentlemen i'm going to jump in here and go to

a break amount of actually break we'll continue with syria and scenarios stay with art you. can. stay. well with the speech it's not all something james as of course a lot of what's the biggest gathering of the year in this digitized world stage next to the floor and a whole host of new services these cities are living is now quickly right we. don't get lost in the crowd with one russian belong to the previous old history of strong technology of these here parts. covered.

to see. you soon. welcome back to crossfire thank you don't go to my door talking about what awaits

siri. see. if you can see. my mom in there in washington i'd like to ask you do you support a western military intervention into syria to topple the regime of assad let's to be clear actually no one is this is. the regime in his own country if you like to have any intervention anything that you like the west. and the syrian in syria that's my question and that's may continue and my answer well i would like you to answer mine and i answer i saw my students you know i am sorry my question would you like to see a western military international have seen are you that so you're saying to me and you say mines off the seat and i'm rising star. i don't doubt questions like. why not so very simple. i have to try to answer your question as i am seeing my

respective go ahead you have to give me some time to build our thought otherwise are going to charge for want to submit to you sure you know but answer the question that's why you're here yeah i'm answering the question. no no one c.d.n. is accepted or alive to our foreign intervention in his own home country when they see it on our pricing started to not in march last through last year they see it and we will it has six or seven months calling against any military intervention but after the crimes it gives you know anything continual in syria and their people they have an option they need they have their eichelberger and themselves no one will accept actually that people the civilians to be killed the children women to be killed what's happening in karma is a true one where actually i said maybe she has as i said should be how they came and slatter their children more than forty six children i would never lie in one so

why would you lie for you this is why would you lie international i mean if you do what would you like the international community to do then syria their international community here they have responsibility to protect this so yes that the survey what does that mean they have to stop to end all this crimes and using the money what their syrians called to implement their saves on and i how it should be protected by a limited no fly zone above the signal to the area all races actually want to see the end they are have been calling for us for a month why would you want to no fly zone when the syrian government is not using planes or helicopters it doesn't make any sense. you know they use their credit they use their wins you know. in other businesses but they of course they don't have the muscles coming from the airplanes but they show their cities and the areas from their planes ok family this is why this is crazy you know york you know if you

think on our blog you think the military intervention will correct and the human rights violation will just make things worse violence begets violence ok and then we could become internationalized which i'd like to move the conversation to that because the words liberalization militarisation go together right here we have a country that could collapse and bring in its neighbors because all the neighbors have a certain peace a certain idea of what they want the geopolitical order to be if there is a regime change. well as a human rights organisation we know it's for military intervention in syria and we let against it either and we are fully aware of the debates around and hard and tough questions that this brings but short of our intervention there is still the international community can do to try and. there is a u.n. in the u.n. security council can do i mean it's been a year eight thousand people dead in

a single resolution passed by the security council the security council at this stage should impose sanctions are good sanctions on the syrian leadership involved in the violence it should have impose an arms embargo it could have. to be intellectual criminal court so there is a look at the security council should do and there's no done for the simple reason that russia and china are no is this is this simple reason is gone to the simple reason is called libya ok jake i think this is one of the things that's really tragic about the whole situation because there is a civil war in in syria right now in it and i agree with you they're going to have to resolve it themselves one way or another but it was the entire precedent of libya and has really done this because great powers like russia and china will say ok now you pick another country you don't like and you'll change regime which one will be next that is the logic of how the this is the live the situation in libya

played out in the russians and the chinese and others are seeing the same thing. absolutely i mean they they create these un resolutions that are supposedly tightly constrained but as soon as they're approved their language is very used to justify anything and what is part of this was this humanitarian intervention in libya which ends up with a regime that is just as bad as the previous regime and so when you have these kind of internal revolutions and civil wars there's no way to predict the outcome it's like it's iraq you know while tiger you just don't know where it's going to end up in syria the rebels want to get rid of this dictatorship that's why they're rebelling the dictatorship is saying we're not going how do you resolve that kind of conflict. seems to me there is no resolution except through continued violence or unless somebody gives up and as of right now nobody is ready to give up but

humanitarian intervention military intervention libya it's only going to fuel the fire it's only going to make things worse it's going to bring more death and destruction in washington what do you think about that what's the endgame what would you like to see happen because it's quite possible that syria could end up being partitioned because you do have minority groups that do not want to be ruled by sudanese they fear for their life they would be ethnic cleansing and is a matter of fact most western interventions over the last decade have ended with terrorism ethnic cleansing and a lot of instability and violence and regimes not particularly friendly to the west by the way. there is no actually and it's any conflict in syria or city and conflict in syria the syrian uprising or the sea or a revolution in biology a snake and securing a corpse we have ally in the leadership of this and see we have we have christiane we have the dollars and we had numerous occasions in every way it's even gotten so

later we are actually the rules are considered the closer to meet it and in different areas we're actually the christan have been participating also in doubt there is no or superior and this is one good thing so that this in seeded when established not on their sectarian b.s. not to be them states has been in iraq on in iran before we have actually coalition of different political parties and undersecretary and beers or beers or a lot of the people who are supporting democracy and dignity and human eyes for they see it and we want and this is their goal or has to be achieved by by this year and we want after all of the sticker prices i don't think they're syrian people will accept for exacerbation to continue at all in their country with on his a lot of clout in his hand and the crime scene is who anything special i said should hold accountable and the international criminal court for the crown said his humanity to the ears of the syrian people you feel when you think the west is going

to get tired of nation building i mean at least in the last decade here i can't think of any one that it's worked out very well ok and it seems that this is again we're using the military to create a new society is that make any sense to you because it seems that every time we keep trying to do it we end up with an unintended consequence of how i started the program. absolutely i mean things are just one person every you look at look at how many people were killed in iraq you know what to put in a brutal regime there that by the way is more pro iran and they are pro u.s. and then here in afghanistan finally people i mean you see conservatism you know the thought of finally calling for the end of the occupation ten years of occupation this is a good sign but a little too late ok philip i mean what are your concerns about what the opposition is doing in syria because again we have very limited information in the media your organization may have more insight here i mean is the opposition getting stronger

in this use of force and fair enough maybe in self-defense but i mean there are arms going in there there is there's got very strong evidence that the opposition is being trained by outsiders i mean it's just the the spiral of violence is getting worse and worse ok i mean is this a major concern that you have right now because this is i mean a lot of people don't like to use the word civil war but i think it looks like a civil war now. well thought for many months when the opposition was it was overwhelmingly peaceful it's a new after being shut out for months and months and some people killed around and that some people have taken up arms and indeed you know we have documented a few cases that are worrying of extra judicial executive and the use of cultural but again you know the overwhelming majority of the violence is still coming from the us government right now and the problem is that it is not traditionally enough international pressure because it with russia it has

a very powerful ally and it has a powerful ally that protects him in the security colored c.-o. against any significant you know pressure. on his end obviously coming from human rights watch me asking arming me as you and measure his regime is committing mass atrocity things you think they should know if they're still russia was attaching to pressure the assad regime actually do you make clear to him that it's not ok to bomb civilian neighborhoods like you know we have the right dialogue children can we have the right dialogue your side of syria your own where you feel a picture it may be more dialogue should not would be the an international community should be supporting gaia log inside of syria and not giving arms and training it should be dialogue. well we look at political organisation which we do is really document human rights violations so i would pray or it's the right is really to. rush out to stop supporting the syrian regime the syrian government

needs to feel the pressure of the full pressure of the u.n. security council so right now the russian government. said the regime and there's a speedy trial i did recently going to promote we're getting reports as we speak now a resolution is being discussed towards that end here jake i'm going to give you the last word in the program here is the what's your prognosis it's going to get far far worse before it gets better i don't know i think it's always impossible to predict these sorts of things hopefully it'll get better but again i just don't see an end game for this i think one of these things we just watch it play out and hope for the best but in the meantime i just reiterate that keep the u.s. out of this because all they do is just make things worse all right gentlemen we've run out of time very spirited debate many thanks to my guest today in washington and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here already see you next time remember awestruck rules. take a stand. all

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