hour of the second world war. firepower the world's nuclear arsenal today. if you're just joining us a very. security council has passed a statement calling for a cease fire in syria and the opening of humanitarian corridors. by u.n. arab league special envoy to syria kofi annan negotiated directly. with president. killing seven people in the city of the interior ministry has denied previous

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lonely and welcome across talk computable about syria and the law of unintended consequences as the syrian civil war crimes on calls for an outside military intervention grow louder and louder while at the same time there is ample evidence that foreign countries and groups are already waging a clandestine war in the country it is hard to see a peaceful end to this conflict particularly for the people on the ground that. can. start. to cross off a civil war in syria i'm joined by rod one day in washington he's a visiting scholar at the institute for middle east studies at the elliott school of international affairs at george washington university also in washington we go to jacob hornberger he is founder and president of the future of freedom foundation

and in new york we have to leave olympia on he is the united nations director at human rights watch all right gentlemen crosstalk rosenfeld that means you can jump in anytime you want jacob if i can go to you first i didn't watching the syrian conflict on american british t.v. western media in general and it's basically good guys and bad guys so can you explain to me who the good guys are and who are the bad guys are because we have a regime that's killing its own people and we have an armed insurrection resorting to terrorism so please tell me who are the good guys in the bad guys. well i think it's always difficult to tell in this kind of situation i mean you've got a dictatorship there and traditionally a dictatorship is the bad guys i mean there's there's traditionally nothing good about a dictatorship and this happens to be one of the most brutal dictatorships in the world you've got an armed insurrection and as i understand it human rights watch is now accused of some major human rights atrocities. one of the issues involved here

i would be the last one to to be an expert in that area i have always taken the position in my foundation has taken the position that this is a problem for the syrians to resolve civil war is never a nice beautiful little thing with nice beautiful outcomes that the u.s. ought to stay out of this thing and just leave this to be resolved by the syrians one way or the other if you are do you come out on that in one in new york i mean again we have to go ahead because again we have this kind of it's kind of bipolar you know good guys i'd like to. yeah we have no documented major atrocities against the opposition which we did is yesterday we sent a letter to the syrian national council raising some issues with we've started documenting some cases of abuse by opposition forces it's not clear how much control the syrian national code culture of the free syria army have over them but

you know there's been a few instances where back to this. you know summary executive people may be tortured kidnapped. so there are a couple of problems there and we think the syrian national council should speak out even though they don't necessarily control of these people but of course you need to put that back into perspective and prudes of the armed opposition and the same level as the government government forces from of your own now have committed mass atrocities they have committed what we think we think are crimes against humanity they've killed thousands of people they've detained. hundreds of people in some cases they've killed children they tortured children they've used mines at the border oh so you know you have a. few instances that are disturbing and should be addressed but only a few instances of abuse by your position forces

a. government that's that's waging a brutal campaign against its own people ok running in if i go to you in washington i mean a to what degree are opposition figures in groups in syria committing atrocities particularly if they're getting outside help and there's ample evidence that there is a clandestine help for the opposition in syria do they have blood on their hands to . let me correct here there is an artist of this commented why those syrian national council or the free syrian army this is a human rights free nations and we addressed and we did receive the letter and i just backrest it last week from geneva where actually we met with the commission of inquiry on the commissioner for human rights and we are fully called but it would all go see him or eyes very lesions committed by their fifty or other. groups even down so we don't feel how first of all somebody saying they don't control but this

for me and let me clarify those things and this this proposal by the ground thank you soo many t.v. we're actually systematic and weisbrot committed by the assad regime for almost a year and the international community did nothing for us. that are so delusional you know i mean show you why should the british why should a international community is not saying why should the international community do something for you by what makes things better this is of course because it will make things better. according to the five thousand and five united nations. summit which was which was the response agreed to what's called that. their responsibility to protect the when i state that actually committed the crimes against humanity genocide war crimes they're sponsoring the international community who have the responsibility to work toward and enforce crimes against

humanity so much it is a national calamity not allowed for other aligned our other crimes against humanity continue in syria well this is me as you know she's always there have been producing countries in the world all these should be intervened into jacob if i can go back to you the west is supporting the opposition so there is nothing to do here legally i mean how they are going to go back to washington jake of supporting one side in a civil war so violence begets violence how can that possibly resolve it's not i'm going to say here i am in washington. well you know let's put things in perspective when the u.s. government kidnapped a canadian citizen it dulles airport and just was trying to decide what country to rendition to him to for the purpose of torture which regime did they select to do that they selected in that case the syrian regime so they have absolutely nothing

against dictatorships as long as the dictatorship is doing what their their bidding i mean look at look at egypt's military dictatorship i mean you know that's one of the most brutal dictatorships in the world as well we've been funneling billions of dollars to that dictatorship predict case we're continuing to funnel money that they take or ship so there's a lot of hypocrisy going on here when we talk about u.s. foreign policy we're really not talking about freedom democracy we're talking about putting regimes in there will become loyal members of the us empire and will do their bidding when they need it that's where the hypocrisy comes into this feel of it one of the things is that again going back to this kind of binary coverage and i excuse me i'm going to lead to end in new york right now we have media that has this kind of binary view of the good guys bad guys here but we have a there is the assad regime does have popular support to what degree we don't really know because media coverage there is very limited but the alawite certainly support him and other minorities support him it's not black and white he does have

some popular support and those people want to keep their privilege and their lives and livelihoods on mostly. yeah and i wear problem is not really with his like a. problem is with the massive human rights violations his regime has been commuted for for commuting from months no it's been a year it's over a thousand people who died and you know you were so unwell so. well side of the country all side of another country right now that was really on the level of the shelter the eight thousand is on those is because there is no evidence yet when. you know as get there were researchers talking to victims is the overwhelming number of casualties peaceful civilians people who were simply demonstrating and the. security forces or militias it is not

the government would like you to believe but a large number of policemen. members of the military even though we acknowledged that some have been i've been killed but of course it's no excuse. to shoot at children or should you know at women and did you know the international community has a responsibility to protect the syrian people and frankly right now the problem is not what we call the international community right now the problem is that russia and china in the u.n. security council have been blocking significant action for months and months and that's the reason why you know all in the thing is the reason is why is that why should the international community quote unquote nato and its allies led by the united states determine which machine should rule and which should not run when if i go to you how would you describe the opposition in syria these jeffersonian democrats or are they some people are they religious fanatics do they want to the

sunni's are being supported by saudi arabia eccentrics cetera i mean it's not black and white the there's a lot of oppositions in syria. yes there's actually someone said about the bark off last night did he seem now that serious has been killed actually by a russian woman so we're actually there a continual backing down so that he might go with the on yesterday when activist actually he send him in. to me some photos we had actually it's a woman's just made by russia good good good good heem those are silly and this is another seem. right she's going to the admissions office of this is why i support humanitarian aid for the syrian people under a united nations security council resolution this is at the same time here jacob if i could add it's very increasingly using aborting jade is this all just about regime change geopolitical advantage in your opinion it's not about human rights.

of course not this is the great game where the people of different administrations there are trying to get their people in a public office it just happens to be a foreign regime where they're trying to do that i mean i think that one of the important things to recognize about what's going on in syria is is that when you have a dictatorship it shows that the only way you're going to be able al said dictatorship you know since there's no democracy is by through violence there's no other way and that if people take that step and jefferson pointed out in the declaration of independence that that's a step that people should take very cautiously because revolutions and civil wars end up with a lot of death and destruction and but it's up to the syrians to make that call once you get foreign intervention there and you've got u.s. bombs dropping and missiles dropping you're going to see a lot more people killed people that may very well say this is not what we call for and so it's not up to the u.s.

government to be cavalier or say we can kill as many people as we want to bring you democracy like they did in iraq ok gentlemen i'm going to jump in here and go to a break and after that short break we'll continue with syrian scenario stay with r.t. . if you. will with. its normal sunday games as for slow to host the biggest gathering of the year in this digitized world stage next month the food work and a whole host of new services feed caesar live there's no quick right of way. but don't get lost in the crowd with one russian bloc that proves all the stereotypes wrong technology companies here are cheap. cover.

the song. came. on. welcome back across the country about to mind we're talking about

what awaits syria. right when in there in washington i'd like to ask you what do you support a western military intervention into syria to topple the regime of assad let's to be clear actually no one is is alive to have cooperation in his own country or would you like to have an intervention anything that you like the last or cherries and there is here in in syria that's my question let's make continue my answer well i would like you to answer mine as i like i answer i soon see now that i am certain my question would you like to see a western military international have seen our ally that so you're saying has me and you say no one's off the seat and i'll gries ing started i don't bounce her questions like. why me sorry simple. i have tried to answer your question as

i am seeing my respective head you have to give me some time to do that or otherwise apologize for want to submit to your new show and i will answer the question that's why you're here yeah a man sitting on a question. no one knows one c.d.n. is accepted or like to have for an intervention in his own home country when they see it on our pricing start that they're not in martial arts to last year this cd and we will it has six or seven months calling against any military intervention but after the crimes against humanity continue in syria and there be born they have not sions they need they have their i.q. broken themselves no one will accept actually that be all the civilians to be killed their children women to be killed what's happening in khartoum is a true one where actually our side really shows us a search of bihar they came and slapped as the children more than forty six

children i would say lie in wondering why would you like to understand why would you lie you know international i mean to do what would you like the international community to do then syria the international community here they have their responsibility to protect this what is that the survey what does that mean they have to stop. all this crimes and using the money to what their syrians called to implement their saves on and i how it should be protected by a limited no fly zone above there is even a theory or all races actually want to see it and they are have been calling for it all for a month why would you want to no fly zone when the syrian government is not using planes or helicopters it doesn't make anything. you know they used they use their brains. and you know that. but they of course they don't have the muscles coming from their brains but they shelled us it is and the areas from their brains ok finally this is what i think you say you know york you know you think on our blog

you think the military intervention will correct and the human rights violation will just make things worse violence begets violence ok and then we could become internationalized which i'd like to move the conversation to that because the words lebanon is ation militarisation go together right here we have a country that could collapse and bring in its neighbors because all the neighbors have a certain peace a certain idea of what they want the geopolitical order to be if there is a regime change. well as a human rights organization we are for military intervention in syria and we are that against it either and we are fully aware of the debates around and the hard and tough questions that this brings but short of military intervention there is still the international community can do to try and the violence there is a un and the u.n. security council can do i mean it's been

a year zero eight thousand people dead and not a single resolution passed by the security council the security council at this stage should impose sanctions are good on the syrian leadership involved in the violence you try to impose an arms embargo you could have. to the intellectual criminal court so there is a lot of the security council should do and there's no one for the simple reason that russia and china know as this is the simple reason is gone to the simple reason is called libya ok jake i think this is one of the things that's really tragic about the whole situation because there is a civil war in in syria right now and it's and i agree with you they're going to have to resolve it themselves one way or another but it was the entire precedent of libya that has really done this because great powers like russia and china will say ok now you pick another country you don't like and you'll change regime which one will be next that is the logic of how the the live the situation in in libya is

played out in the russians and the chinese and others are seeing the same thing. absolutely i mean they they create these un resolutions that are supposedly tightly constrained but as soon as they're approved their language is very used to justify anything and what is part of this was this humanitarian intervention in libya which ends up with a regime that is just as bad as the previous regime and so when you have these kind of internal revolutions and civil wars there's no way to predict the outcome it's like it's iraq you know while tiger you just don't know where it's going to end up in syria the rebels want to get rid of this dictatorship that's why they're rebelling the dictatorship is saying we're not going how do you resolve that kind of conflict. seems to me there is no resolution except through continued violence or unless somebody gives up and as of right now nobody's ready to give up but

humanitarian intervention military intervention libya it's only going to fuel the fire it's only going to make things worse it's going to bring more death and destruction i want to in washington what do you think about that what's the endgame what would you like to see happen because it's quite possible that syria could end up being partitioned because you do have minority groups that do not want to be ruled by sunni's they fear for their life they would be ethnic cleansing and as a matter of fact most western interventions over the last decade have ended with terrorism ethnic cleansing and a lot of instability and violence and regimes not particularly friendly to the west by the way. there is no i actually and it's funny conflict in syria our sixth year in conflict in syria the syrian uprising or the spirit of illusion made by already cynical and securing groups we have the in the leadership of this and see we have we have christiane we have the dollars and we have them stations in every even that insulated are we actually the rules are

considered a concentrated and in different areas we had actually there christiane had been participating also in the uprising there is an or six here and this is one good thing to do this and see didn't win establish not on their sectarian b.s. not to be them states has been in iraq on in iran before we have actually coalition of different political parties not on this experience bears or beers rather than the people who are supporting democracy and dignity and human lives for the syrian people and this is their goal or has to be achieved by why they see it and be going after all of the sticker prices i don't think they're syrian people will accept for that so there is going to continue rolling the country with on his a lot of clout in his hand and the crimes against humanity by shall i said should who hold accountable and the international criminal court for the crown to his humanity

committed to the scene and be ok you feel when you think the west is going to get tired of nation building i mean at least in the last decade here i can't think of any one that it's worked out very well ok and it seems that this is again we're using the military to create a new society is that make any sense to you because it seems that every time we keep trying to do it we end up with an unintended consequence that i started the program. absolutely i mean things are just so worse than ever you look at look at how many people were killed in iraq what to put in a brutal regime there that by the way is more pro where iran and they are pro u.s. and then here in afghanistan finally people i mean you see conservatism you know the thought of finally calling for the end of the occupation can years of occupation this is a good sign but a little too late ok filipe i mean what are your concerns about what the opposition is doing in syria because again we have very limited information in the media your organization may have more insight here i mean is the opposition getting stronger

in this use of force and fair enough maybe in self-defense but i mean there are arms going in there there is there's a good very strong evidence that the opposition is being trained by outsiders i mean it's just keep the the spiral of violence is getting worse and worse ok i mean is this a major concern that you have right now because this i mean a lot of people don't like to use the word civil war but i think it looks like a civil war now. well thought for many months you know the opposition was overwhelmingly peaceful it's and you have to being shut out for months and months and seeing people killed or older than that that some people have taken the arms and indeed you know we have documented a few cases that are worrying of extra judicial executor and the use of torture but again you know the overwhelming majority of the violence is still coming from the us government right no and the problem is that it is notorious feeling intellectual pressure because with russia it has a very powerful ally and it has

a powerful ally that protects him in the security council against any significance you know pressure sink surely keep them gobbling any coming from human rights watch we have seen arming let me ask you a measures regime is committing massacre you think do you think you know if there is still russia was attempting to pressure the assad reaction to do you make clear to him that it's not ok to bomb civilian neighborhoods like you know we have the right dialogue children can we have the right dialogue the side of syria the wrong way philip could should not be more dialogue should not would be the international community should be supporting dialogue inside of syria and not giving arms and training it should be dialogue. well we are a little political organization which we do is really documents human rights violations so i will priority right now is really to tell china in two thousand rachelle to stop supporting the syrian regime the syrian government needs to feel

the pressure the pressure of the u.n. security council so right now the russian government should not go to the assad regime and is he trying to. be going to promote we're getting old as we speak now a resolution is being discussed towards that end here jake i'm going to give you the last word on the program here is the what's your prognosis it's going to get far far worse before it gets better i don't know i think it's always impossible to predict these sorts of things hopefully it'll get better but again i just don't see an end game for this i think one of these things we just watch it play out and hope for the best but in the meantime i just reiterate that keep the u.s. out of this because all they do is just make things worse all right gentlemen we've run out of time very spirited debate many thanks to my guest today in washington and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here already see you next time remember awestruck rules. take a. stand.