can she not from the russian capital this is r t with the twenty four hours a day top stories now the un security council has passed a statement calling for a cease fire in syria and the opening up humanitarian corridors and moving towards a peace plan by u.n. arab league special envoy to syria kofi annan. in person with president assad. french police are still laying siege of the home of a man suspected of killing seven people the earlier this month in the city of toulouse the man is thought to be heavily armed with several weapons possibly including hand grenades france's top prosecutor says the government may surrender

tonight. also reporting that the head of the international monetary fund issues a warning of a skyrocketing oil prices in the wake of tensions in the middle east adding that disruptions to reigning in crude supplies could destabilize the global economy. to principal taking a lot more on those stories for you in half an hour from now on and meantime as promised peter lavelle and his guests debate whether the crisis in syria is about democracy terrorism or geopolitical strategies over iran that next. wealthy british scientists. sometimes. the. markets finance scandal. find out what's really happening to the global economy cause

a report on our key. can start. to. slowly and welcome across our computor all about syria and the law of unintended consequences as the syrian civil war crimes on calls for an outside military intervention grows louder and louder while at the same time there is ample evidence that foreign countries in groups are already waging a clandestine war in the country it is hard to see a peaceful end to this conflict particularly for the people on the ground. we can. start. to cross stop a civil war in syria i'm joined by rod one day in washington he's a visiting scholar at the institute for middle east studies at the elliott school of international affairs at george washington university also in washington we go

to jacob hornberger he is founder and president of the future of freedom foundation and in new york we have a feeling we're looking on he is the united nations director at human rights watch are a gentleman cross-talk rosenberg that means you can jump in anytime you want jacob if i can go to you first i didn't watching the syrian conflict on american british t.v. western media in general and it's basically good guys and bad guys so can you explain to me who the good guys are and who are the bad guys are because we have a regime that's killing its own people and we have an armed insurrection resorting to terrorism so please tell me who are the good guys and the bad guys. well i think it's always difficult to tell in this kind of situation i mean you've got a dictatorship there and traditionally a dictatorship is the bad guys i mean there's there's traditionally nothing good about a dictatorship and this happens to be one of the most brutal dictatorships in the world you've got an armed insurrection and that as i understand it human rights

watch is now accused of some major human rights atrocities. what are the issues involved here i would be the last one to to be an expert in that area i have always taken the position in my foundation has taken the position that this is a problem for the syrians to resolve civil war is never a nice beautiful little thing with nice beautiful outcomes that the u.s. ought to stay out of this thing and just leave this to be resolved by the syrians one way or the other if you look or do you come out on that in one in new york i mean again we have to go ahead because again we have this kind of it's kind of bipolar you know good guys i'd like to take them in. yeah we have no documented major atrocities against the opposition which we did is yesterday we sent a letter to the syrian national council raising some issues we've we've started the commencing some cases of abuse by opposition forces it's not clear how much control

the syrian national council or the free syria army have over there but you know there's been a few instances where. you know summary executive people may be tortured kidnapped so there are a couple of problems there and we think the syrian national council should speak out even though they don't necessarily control of these people but of course you need to put that back into perspective this includes the armed opposition and the same level as the government government forces for for over a year on now have committed mass atrocities committed with the things that we think are crimes against humanity they've killed thousands of people they've detained torture hundreds of people in some cases they've killed children they've tortured children they've used mines at the border oh so you know you have. instances that are disturbing and should be addressed but only

a few instances of abuse by your position forces in the government and that's a that's waging a brutal campaign against its own people ok running in if i go to you in washington i mean a to what degree are opposition figures in groups in syria committing atrocities particularly if they're getting outside help and there's ample evidence that there is a kindness and help for the opposition in syria do they have blood on their hands to. let me correct here there is an artist that is committed by the syrian national council or the free syrian army this is a human rights violations and we addressed and we did receive the letter and i just back arrested last week from geneva we are actually we met with the commission of inquiry under commissioner for human rights and we are fully called betty with all those who more eyes of a nation's committed why they're fifty or other or. even died so we don't feel

their house responsibility so they don't go on fraud but this for me let me clarify bill sinks in this disproportion by the ground saying it's you who many tea where i actually systematically ground rice but i commuted by there are so good reason for almost a year and the international community did nothing for us and there are so delusional you ask why don't you show you why should they why your traditional really not seeing why should the international community do something for you why make things better this is of course because it will make things better two thousand and five. according to the five thousand and five united nation. summit which words of which were the responsibility for what's called the. responsibility to protect the when i state that actually committed to crimes against humanity genocide war crimes there is a possibility as international community to have the responsibility. toward an end

for the scrounger it is too many a solution it is a national unity not allowed for other aligned our other crimes against humanity continue in syria well this is means you know she is always there for groceries groceries in the world should be intervened into jacob if i can go back to you the west is supporting the opposition so there is no excuse here legally to get out there and i go back to washington jacob the west is supporting one side in a civil war so violence begets violence how can that possibly resolve it's not needed he's going to use jager again in washington. well you know let's put things in perspective when the u.s. government kidnapped a canadian citizen it dulles airport and this was trying to decide what country to rendition to him to for the purpose of torture which regime did they select to do that they selected in that case the syrian regime so they have absolutely nothing

against dictatorships as long as the dictatorship is doing what they're there bidding i mean look at look at egypt's military dictatorship i mean you know that's one of the most brutal dictatorships in the world as well we've been funneling billions of dollars to the taper ship project kate we're continuing to funnel money that dictatorship so there's a lot of hypocrisy going on here when we talk about u.s. foreign policy we're really not talking about freedom democracy we're talking about putting regimes in there will become loyal members of the us empire who will do their bidding when they need it that's where the hypocrisy comes into this feel of it one of the things is that again going back to this kind of binary coverage and you know excuse me i'm going to sleep in in new york right now filipe we have media that has this kind of binary view of the good guys bad guys here but we have it there is a side regime does have popular support to what degree we don't really know because

media coverage there is very limited but the alawite certainly support him and other minorities support him it's not black and white he does have some popular support and those people want to keep their privilege and their lives and livelihoods are mostly. yeah and i work problem is not really with is like a lawsuit. or problem is with the massive human rights violations his regime has been committed for for commuting for months now it's been a you know it's over eight thousand people who died and you know you also and was. well sorry that i knew the country of another country right now that was really going to have all of this will to the eight thousand is on both sides because there is no evidence yet where the evidence is you know as get our researchers talking to victims is that the overwhelming number of casualties are peaceful civilians its people are simply demonstrating and the. security forces are

militias and. the government would like you to believe the large number of policemen. and girls of the military even though we acknowledged that some have been killed but of course it's no excuse. to shoot at children or should you know it women and did you know the international community has a responsibility to protect the syrian people and frankly right now the problem is not what we call the international community right now the problem is that russia and china in the u.n. security council have been blocking significant action for months and months and that's the reason why all in the thing as the reason is why is it why should the international community quote unquote nato and its allies led by the united states determine which machine should rule and which should not and i want to find out to you how would you describe the opposition in syria are these jeffersonian democrats

or are they some people are they religious fanatics do they want to the sunni's are being supported by saudi arabia etc etc i mean it's not black and white the there's a lot of oppositions in syria. it's fair starch least is see someone. born off that he seem now they're syrians has been killed actually by a russian woman so we're actually the continual backing down so that he might go with iran yesterday or an activist actually he send them in. to me some for those who are actually it's a woman's just made by russia and china to believe him those are syrians this is another senior. going to the ignition system this is why i support humanitarian aid for the syrian people under a united nations security council resolution this is at the same time here jacob if i could just very interesting that you think the board think jake is this all just

about regime change geopolitical advantage in your opinion it's not about human rights. of course not this is the great game where the people of different administrations there are trying to get their people in the public office it just happens to be a foreign regime where they're trying to do that i mean i think that one of the important things to recognize about what's going on in syria is is that when you have a dictatorship it shows that the only way you're going to be able al said dictatorship you know since there's no democracy is by through violence there's no other way and that if people take that step and jefferson pointed out in the declaration of independence that that's a step that people should take very cautiously because revolutions and civil wars end up with a lot of death and destruction and but it's up to the syrians to make that call once you get foreign intervention there and you've got u.s. bombs dropping in missiles dropping you're going to see a lot more people killed people that may very well say this is not what we call for

so it's not up to the u.s. government to be cavalier or saying we can kill as many people as we want to bring you democracy like they did in iraq ok gentlemen i'm going to jump in here and go to a break and after that short break we'll continue with syrian scenario stay with r.t. . and. start. with the speech it's not all sunday games as barcelona hosts the biggest gathering of the year in this digitized world stage next to the floor and a whole host of new services speeds musically there's no quick clear right way. but don't get lost in the crowd with one russian bloc that proves all the stereotypes wrong technology of state here on our t.v.

. coverage. the easier. to say. see. you soon.

welcome back to ask our computer to imagine we're talking about what awaits theory . suggests. you can see. right on in there in washington i'd like to ask you why do you support a western military intervention into syria to topple the regime of assad let's be clear actually no one was alive to kill regime in his own country if you like to have an interview you like the last. cherry in the syrian in syria that's my question let's make on to you know my answer well i would like you answer mine a lot i answer i see and see no i am sorry my question would you like to see a western military international have seen are you that so you're saying mean you

say someone's off the seat and i'll rising star. i don't ask questions like. why no sorry simple. i housecat i can answer your question i'm sorry i'm seeing my respective go ahead you have to give me some time to do doubt or otherwise i'm going to chance for a while to submit to your new show you know but answer the question that's why you're here yeah i'm answering your question. but no one noticed one sienese accepted lifestyle for an intervention in his own home country when they see it an uprising started in line in march last through last year this cd and we will it has six or seven months calling against any military intervention but after the crimes against humanity continue in syria and they have an options they need they have the right to protect themselves no one would accept actually that people the civilians to be killed the children were

meant to be killed what's happening in khartoum is eight to one where actually i said militias as i said should be how they came and slappers the children more than forty six children i would say why even wondering why would you lie for your sins why would you lie in arena international i mean if you do what would you like the international community to do then syria the international community here they have their responsibility to protect this so yes that the survey what does that mean they have to start to end all this ground using the money what they're syrians called to implement their saves on and i harbor that it should be protected by a limited no fly zone i bought this even eighty area all race is actually one of the sea and they are have been calling for oil for a month why would you want to no fly zone when the syrian government is not using planes or helicopters it doesn't make any sense. you know they used to commit they use their brains. in hand in other abuses but they of course they don't have the

muscles coming from their brains but they shelled their cities and the areas from their brains ok fine this is what you say you know york you know what's going on i'll grant you this maybe the military intervention will correct and the human rights violation will just make things worse violence begets violence ok and then we could become internationalized which i'd like to move the conversation to that because the words lebanon is ation militarisation go together right here we have a country that could collapse and bring in its neighbors because all the neighbors have a certain peace a certain idea of what they want the geopolitical order to be if there is a regime change. well as a human rights organisation we are for military intervention in syria and we let against it either and we are fully aware of the debates around that and hard and tough questions that this brings but short of military intervention there is still

the international community can do to try and the violence there is a un and the u.n. security council can do it it's been a year zero eight thousand people dead and a single resolution passed by the security council the security council at this stage should impose sanctions targeted sanctions on the syrian leadership involved in the violence into that impose an arms embargo it could have. to the intellectual criminal court so there is a lot of the security council should do. for the simple reason that russia and china are no is this is this legal reason is called the simple reason is called libya ok jake i think this is one of the things that's really tragic about the whole situation because there is a civil war in in syria right now in it but i agree with you they're going to have to resolve it themselves one way or another but it was the entire precedent of libya that is really done this because great powers like russia and china will say

ok now you pick another country you don't like and you'll change regime which one will be next that is the logic of how the this is the live the situation in in libya it's played out in the russians and the chinese and others are seeing the same thing. absolutely i mean they they create these u.n. resolutions that are supposedly tightly constrained but as soon as they're approved their language is very used to justify anything and what is part of this was this humanitarian intervention in libya which ends up with a regime that is just as bad as the previous regime and so when you have these kind of internal revolutions and civil wars there's no way to predict the outcome it's like it's iraq you know while tiger you just don't know where it's going to end up in syria the rebels want to get rid of this dictatorship that's why they're rebelling the dictatorship is saying we're not going how do you resolve that kind of conflict. seems to me there's no resolution except through continued violence or

unless somebody gives up and as of right now nobody is ready to give up but humanitarian intervention military intervention libya it's only going to fuel the fire it's only going to make things worse it's going to bring more death and destruction in washington what do you think about that what's the end game what would you like to see happen because it's quite possible that syria could end up being partitioned because you do have minority groups that do not want to be ruled by sudanese they fear for their life they would be ethnic cleansing and it's a matter of fact most western interventions over the last decade of ended with terrorism ethnic cleansing and a lot of instability and violence and regimes not particularly friendly to the west by the way. there is no i actually and it's any conflict in syria experience in syria the syrian uprising or the see a revolution in by oriskany and securing groups we have right in the leadership of

this and see we have we have christiane we have the dollars and we have numerous situations and everybody is even that insulated are we are actually the doors are considered concentrated and in different areas we are actually there christiane had been to see we think also in the uprising there is not superior and this is one good thing so that this in c. did win a stylish not under-secretary and b is not to be them states has been in iraq on in iran and before we have actually coalition of different political parties not on the sectarian beers or beers rather than the people who are supporting democracy and dignity and human rise for the seat and we want and this is their goal or has to be achieved by by this year and we will after all of the sticker prices i don't think people will accept for the us are there to continue rolling the country with on his a lot of ground in his hand and the crimes against humanity bashar said

should hold accountable and the international criminal court for the counter is humanity welcome it is in the c.n.n. be ok you feel when you think the west is going to get tired of nation building i mean this in the last decade here i can't think of any one that it worked out very well ok and it seems that this is again we're using the military to create a new society is that make any sense to you because it seems that every time we keep trying to do it we end up with an unintended consequence that's how i started the program. absolutely i mean things are just one person every you look at how many people were killed in iraq you know what to put in a brutal regime there that by the way is more pro iran and they are pro u.s. and then here in afghanistan finally people i mean you see conservatives are now the thought of finally calling for the end of the occupation ten years of occupation this is a good sign but a little too late ok philip i mean what are your concerns about what the opposition

is doing in syria because again we have very limited information in the media your organization may have more insight here i mean is the opposition getting stronger in this use of force and fair enough maybe in self-defense but i mean there are arms going in there there is there isn't very strong evidence that the opposition is being trained by outsiders i mean it's just the the spiral of violence is getting worse and worse ok i mean is this a major concern that you have right now because this is i mean a lot of people don't like to use the word civil war but i think it looks like a civil war now. well for many months you know the position was it was overwhelmingly peaceful it's a new after being shut out for months and months and some people killed around the incident some people have taken up arms and indeed you know we have documented a few cases that are worrying affects traditional executor and the use of torture but again you know the overwhelming majority of the violence is still coming from

the us government right now and the problem is that it is not really feeling the intellectual pressure because with russia it has a very powerful ally and it has a powerful ally that protects him in the security council against any significant you know pressure. on zimbabwe really coming from human rights watch me to say arming let me ask you a measure is regime this is a meeting that's the tricky thing is do you think they should you know if they're still russia was attempting to pressure the assad regime as we do make clear to him that it's not ok to bomb civilian neighborhoods like here we have to raise dialogue children can we have dialogue decided seriously a long way philip jitney be more dialogue should now would be the international community should be supporting gaia log inside of syria and not giving arms and training it should be dialogue. well if we look at political organisation which we do is really a documentary with a rights violation so i work for you it's

a right is really to tell china and to tell rashad to stop supporting the syrian regime is the syrian government needs to feel the pressure of the pressure of the u.n. security council so right now the russian government. has said the regime is a speedy trial i did anything to promote we're getting word as we speak now a resolution is being discussed towards that end here jake i'm going to give you the last word in the program here is the what's your prognosis it's going to get far far worse before it gets better i don't know i think it's always impossible to predict these sorts of things hopefully it'll get better but again i just don't see an end game for this i think one of these things we just watch it play out and hope for the best but in the meantime i just reiterate to keep the u.s. out of this because all they do is just make things worse all right gentlemen we've run out of time very spirited debate many thanks to my guest today in washington and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t.

so you next time remember awestruck rules from. kick start. home.