to learn how to say this all in one hundred forty yes or so. chris chambers journalism professor at georgetown university and of course that does it for now for more on everything you saw just to get in to our website or our twitter account or follow me on twitter that's at losing captain of will be back at seven pm eastern. cultures that so much of it is a huge music issue on the market as the syrian civil war grinds on calls for an outside military intervention growing louder and louder while at the same time there is.

take. the. low end welcome to crossfire computor all about syria and the law of unintended consequences as the syrian civil war grinds on calls for an outside military intervention grows louder and louder while at the same time there is ample evidence that foreign countries in groups are already waging a clandestine war in the country it is hard to see a peaceful end to this conflict particularly for the people on the ground. still. to cross the civil war in syria i'm joined

by rod one day a day in washington he's a visiting scholar at the institute for middle east studies at the elliott school of international affairs at george washington university also in washington we go to jacob hornberger he is founder and president of the future of freedom foundation and in new york we have the lead looking on he is the united nations director at human rights watch all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want jacob if i can go to you first i didn't watching the syrian conflict and american british t.v. western media in general and it's basically good guys and bad guys so can you explain to me who the good guys are and who are the bad guys are because we have a regime that's killing its own people and we have an armed insurrection resorting to terrorism so please tell me who are the good guys and the bad guys. well i think it's always difficult to tell in this kind of situation i mean you've got a dictatorship there and traditionally a dictatorship is the bad guys i mean there's there's traditionally nothing good about a dictatorship and this happens to be one of the most brutal dictatorships in the

world you've got an armed insurrection and that as i understand it human rights watch is now accused of some major human rights atrocities. and what are the issues involved here i would be the last one to to be an expert in that area i have always taken the position in my foundation has taken the position that this is a problem for the syrians to resolve civil war is never a nice beautiful little thing with nice beautiful outcomes that the u.s. ought to stay out of this thing and just leave this to be resolved by the syrians one way or the other if you live or do you come out on that in one in new york i mean again we have to go ahead because again we have this kind of it's kind of bipolar you know good guys and i'd like to correct them in. yeah we have no documented and major atrocities against the opposition which we did is yesterday we sent a letter to the syrian national council raising some issues with we've started documenting

some cases of abuse by position forces it's not clear how much control see an actual color of the free syria army have over them but you know there's been a few instances where activists have you know summary executive people maybe tortured kidnapped. so there are a couple of problems there and we think the syrian national council should speak out even though they don't necessarily control of these people but of course you need to put them back into perspective and could to arm the opposition and the same level as the government government forces for for you have committed my central cities they have committed with we think we think are crimes against humanity they've killed her thousands of people they've detained. hundreds of people in some cases they've killed children they tortured children they've used mines at

the border oh so you know you have. instances that are disturbing and should be addressed but only a few instances of abuse by your position forces and the other government and that's that's waging a brutal campaign against its own people ok running in a very angry you in washington i mean to what degree are opposition figures in groups in syria committing atrocities particularly if they're getting outside help and there's ample evidence that there is a kind gesture in helping the opposition in syria do they have blood on their hands to. let me correct here there is a dark horse and this committed by those here nicer in council or the free syrian army this is a humorous variations and we are going to see a day later and i just last week from geneva we're actually we met with the commission of inquiry on the commissioner for human rights and we are fully called

betty with all this in here more eyes very nations committed by their thirty or other. groups even down so we don't feel the house responsibility so they don't control it but this to me let me clarify it all seems this disproportion by the ground saying it's you who many tea where are actually systematic and widespread committed by the assad regime for almost a year and the international community did not think for us. that are so delusional you know i mean you show you why should they why you should really not saying why should. they do something for you why will it make things better this is of course because it will make things better because a two thousand and five. to five thousand and five united nation with. some aid which rewards the responsibility for what's called the. responsibility to protect when i state that actually committed crimes against humanity genocide war

crimes there's also have to as an international community have the responsibility provoked toward an end for this crime to his or her money so much it is a national community not allowed for other or under our other crimes against humanity continue in syria well this is me as you know it lays down for diversity countries in the world all these should be intervened into jacob if i can go back to you the west is supporting the opposition so there is nothing to do here legally to get out of the legal back to washington jacob the west is supporting one side in a civil war so violence begets violence how can that possibly resolve it's not a peace i'm going to jail again in washington and. well you know let's put things in perspective when the u.s. government kidnapped a canadian citizen it della sera port and this was trying to decide what country to

rendition to him to for the purpose of torture which regime did they select to do that they selected in that case the syrian regime so they have absolutely nothing against dictatorships as long as the dictatorship is doing what they're there betty we look at look at egypt's military dictatorship i mean you know that's one of the most brutal dictatorships in the world as well we've been funneling billions of dollars to that dictatorship for decades we're continuing to funnel money that dictatorships so there's a lot of hypocrisy going on here when we talk about u.s. foreign policy we're really not talking about freedom democracy we're talking about putting regimes in there will become loyal members of the us empire and will do their bidding when they need it that's where the hypocrisy comes into this feel of it one of the things is that again going back to this kind of binary coverage and you know excuse me i'm going to sleep in in new york right now filipe we have media that has this kind of binary view of the good guys bad guys here but we haven't

there is the assad regime does have popular support to what degree we don't really know because media coverage there is very limited but the alawite certainly support him and other minorities support him it's not black and white he does have some popular support and those people want to keep their privilege and their lives and livelihoods are mostly. yeah and i work problem is no it's really with is like a reporter problem is with the massive human rights violations is regime has been committed for for commuting for months no it's been there you know it's over eight thousand people who died and you know you were also unwell so you're not signed on well sorry you're right that under the control of another country right now that was really going to leave all of the usual to the eight thousand is over this is because there is no evidence yes well. you know it has gathered by our research i

was talking to victims is that the overwhelming number of casualties peaceful civilians people who were simply demonstrating and of being shut out by snipers or security forces or militias it is not the government would like you to believe that a large number of policemen. of the military even though we acknowledged that some have been killed but of course it's no excuse. to shoot at children or should you know it's we men and indeed you know the international community has a responsibility to protect the syrian people and frankly right now the problem is not what we call the international community right now the problem is that russia and china in the u.n. security council have been blocking significant action for all months and months and that's the reason why you know all in the thing is the reason is why is that why should the international community quote unquote nato and its allies led by the

united states determine which machine should rule and which should not run when if i know to you how would you describe the opposition in syria are these jeffersonian democrats or are they some people are they religious fanatics do they want to do the sunni's are being supported by saudi arabia etc etc i mean it's not black and white the there's a lot of oppositions in syria. it's fair starch least is say someone. bought off that assad regime now they're syrians has been killed actually why are struggling and so we're actually the continual backing down so that he might go with iran yesterday when activist actually he said their main. concern for it was we had actually it's a woman's just made by russia and she had to put aside heem those r.c.d. ends because after seeming. going to the end the nations to stop this is why i support humanitarian aid for the syrian people under

a united nations security council resolution this is that the same time you jacob if i could it's very interesting really interesting supporting jade is this all just about regime change for geo political advantage in your opinion it's not about human rights. of course not this is the great game where the people of different administrations there are trying to get their people in the public office it just happens to be a foreign regime where they're trying to do that i mean i think that one of the important things to recognize about what's going on in syria is is that when you have a dictatorship it shows that the only way you're going to be able al said dictatorship you know since there's no democracy is by through violence there's no other way and that if people take that step and jefferson pointed out in the declaration of independence that that's a step that people should take very cautiously because revolutions and civil wars end up with a lot of death and destruction and but it's up to the syrians to make that call

once you get foreign intervention in there and you've got u.s. bombs dropping and missiles dropping you're going to see a lot more people killed people that may very well say this is not what we call for so it's not up to the u.s. government to be cavalier or say we can kill as many people as we want to bring you democracy like they did in iraq ok gentlemen i'm going to jump in here and go to a break and after that short break we'll continue with syrian scenario stay with arkie. just said. to. stick. to the extent of. you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so you think you understand it and then something else you hear sees some other part of it and realize that everything is ok. i'm tom harpur welcome to the big picture.

wealthy british. right on. the market. to. find out what's really happening to the global economy with much stronger for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines to report. the commission for the cretaceous three the quds force judges three. maintenance three. three stooges freeze. the old free blog plug in video for your media projects and free media. dot com.

more news today harlan says once again fled the film these are the images. from the streets of canada. operations are the day the book. ok. welcome back to ask you about tonight we're talking about what awaits jury. keep. in washington i'd like to

ask you do you support a western military intervention into syria to topple the regime of assad let's to be clear actually no one is using life to kill regime in his own country would you like to have an intervention like the last or the chariot and there's a friend in syria that's my question that's me continuing my answer but i would like you answer mine as i answer my students you know i am sorry my question would you like to see a western military international have seen are in iraq so you're saying to me and you see this once off the seat and i'll rise in started i don't doubt sir questions like this i know it's a very simple i housecat i can answer your question as i see in my respective go ahead you have to give me some time to build our thought otherwise. you know sean

and i will answer the question that's why you're here yeah man sitting. you know what no one c.n. is accepted or alive to our foreign intervention is our own country when they see it on our guys when we started in in march last to last year this year and we will it has six or seven months calling against any military intervention that's after crimes against you know anything continual in syria and they have an options they need they have their i.q. returned themselves no one will accept actually that people the civilians to be killed their children women to be killed what's happening in khartoum is a true one where actually i said militias as i said should be how they came and slappers the children more than forty six children i would remind you in one so why would you lie for your sins why would you lie international i mean to do what would

you like the international community to do then syria their international community here they have their responsibility to protect their use that the survey what does that mean they have to start to end all this ground it isn't the money one of their syrians called to implement their saves on and i how it should be protected by a limited no fly zone my brothers even aviary are all races actually want to see it and they are have been calling for us for a month why would you want to no fly zone when the syrian government is not using claims or helicopters it doesn't make any sense. they used to commit they use their brains in iraq and in other abuses but they of course they don't have the muscles coming from their brains but they shelled our cities and the areas from their planes ok phyllis is what you say you know york you know you think on i'll do this regular military intervention will correct and the human rights violation will just make things worse violence begets violence ok and then we could become

internationalized which i'd like to move the conversation to that because the words liberalization militarisation go together right here we have a country that could collapse and bring in its neighbors because all the neighbors have a certain peace and certain idea of what they want the geopolitical order to be if there is a regime change. well as a human rights organization we are not for military intervention in syria and we are let against it either and we are of the debates around and hard and tough questions that this brings but short of military intervention there is still the international community can do to try and end the violence and there is a un the un security council can do i mean it's been a year zero eight thousand people dead and a single resolution passed by the security council the security council at this stage should impose sanctions targeted sanctions on the syrian leadership involved

in the violence it should have imposed an arms embargo it could have referred. to the intel issue or criminal court so there is a lot the security council should do and there's no need for the simple reason that russia and china know as this is this legal reason is gone to the simple reason is called libya ok jake i think this is one of the things that's really tragic about the whole situation because there is a civil war in syria right now and it's why i agree with you they're going to have to resolve it themselves one way or another but it was the entire precedent of libya that has really done this because great powers like russia and china will say ok now you pick another country you don't like and you'll change regime which one will be next that is the logic of how the the the live the situation in in libya played out in the russians and the chinese and others are seeing the same thing. absolutely i mean they they create these un resolutions that are supposedly tightly

constrained but as soon as they're approved their language is very used to justify anything and what is part of this was this humanitarian intervention in libya which ends up with a regime that is just as bad as the previous regime and so when you have these kind of internal revolutions and civil wars there's no way to predict the outcome it's like it's like running a wild tiger you just don't know where it's going to end up in syria the rebels want to get rid of this dictatorship that's why they're rebelling the dictatorship is saying we're not going how do you resolve that kind of conflict. seems to me there is no resolution except through continued violence or unless somebody gives up and as of right now nobody is ready to give up but humanitarian intervention military intervention libya it's only going to fuel the fire it's only going to make things worse it's going to bring more death and destruction in washington what

do you think about that and what's the endgame what would you like to see happen because it's quite possible that syria could end up being partitioned because you do have minority groups that do not want to be ruled by sudanese they fear for their life they would be ethnic cleansing and is a matter of fact most western interventions over the last decade of ended with terrorism ethnic cleansing and a lot of instability and violence and regimes not particularly friendly to the west by the way. there is no actually and it's funny conflict in syria are sixty and conflict in syria the syrian uprising or the spirit of are usually made by artists and sectarian groups we have our right in the leadership of this and see we have we have christiane we have dollars and we have numerous occasions and everybody is even that insulated our we are actually the rules are considered consecrated and in different areas we are actually the christian have been asked to see we think also and uprising there is no sixty

million and this is one good thing to do this in c. didn't when established not on their security and b. is not to be them states has been in iraq on in lebanon before we have actually coalition of different political parties not under-secretary and beers or beers rather than the people who are supporting democracy and dignity and human eyes for the syrian people and this is their goal or has to be achieved by by this seat and be bored after all of this sticker pfizer's i don't think that syrian people will accept for that so there is room to continue rolling the country with on his a lot of clout in his hand and the crimes in his humanity bashar said should hold accountable and the international criminal court for the conflict is humanity committed to a case of the syrian be ok you feel when you think the west is going to get tired of nation building i mean it is in the last decade here i can't think of any one that is worked out very well ok and it seems that this is again where using the

military to create a new society is not make any sense to you because it seems that every time we keep trying to do it we end up with an unintended consequence that's how i started the program. absolutely i mean things are just so worse and every you look at how many people were killed in iraq there were two to put in a brutal regime there that by the way is more pro or iran and they are pro u.s. and then here in afghanistan finally people i mean you see conservatives are now the thought of finally calling for the end of the occupation came years of occupation this is a good sign but a little too late ok philip i mean what are your concerns about what the opposition is doing in syria because again we have very limited information in the media your organization may have more insight here i mean is the opposition getting stronger in this use of force and fair enough maybe in self-defense but i mean there are arms going in there is there's a very strong evidence that the opposition is being trained by outsiders i mean

it's just keep the the spiral of violence is getting worse and worse ok i mean is this a major concern that you have right now because this is i mean a lot of people don't like to use the word civil war but i think it looks like a civil war now. well thought for many months you know the opposition was was overwhelmingly peaceful it's and after being shut out for months and months and seeing people killed around and that some people have taken the olives and indeed you know we have documented a few cases that are worrying effect struggle to show executor and the use of torture but again you know the overwhelming majority of the violence is still coming from the us government right now and the problem is that it is not traditionally an intellectual pressure because with russia it has a very powerful ally it has a powerful ally that protects him in the security council against any significance

you know pressure sanctions really people do things and obviously you have a from human rights watch me asking arming let me ask you questions regimes committing such as these things do you think they should just you know if they're still russia was attempting to pressure the assad regime it does make clear to him that it's not ok to bomb civilian neighborhood like you know we have the right dialogue children can we have dialogue inside of syria along where you feel it could be more dialogue should now would be the an international community should be supporting dialogue inside of syria and not giving arms and training it should be dialogue. well we'll let the political organisation which we do is really the commensurate with the rights violations so i will priority right now is really to tell china and russia to stop supporting the syrian regime the syrian government needs to feel the pressure of the full pressure of the u.n. security council so right now the russian government should not follow the regime and there's a speech right now i did tweet as we speak. as we speak now

a resolution is being discussed it towards that end here jake i'm going to give you the last word on the program here is the what's your prognosis it's going to get far far worse before it gets better i don't know i think it's always impossible to predict these sorts of things hopefully it will get better but again i just don't see an end game for this one of these things we just watch it play out and hope for the best but in the meantime i just reiterate that keep the u.s. out of this because all they do is just make things worse all right gentlemen we've run out of time very spirited debate many thanks to my guest today in washington and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here already see you next time remember rostock rules. taking.

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