white's was being frittered away by twitter but when you look at some of the tweets and the access it's again it's you people are tweeting about rianna they're not tweeting about you know the n w c p so again you see a lead lining to the silver cloud in other words so well it's certainly i'm sorry in fact that there are only available edge sword next time we're going to learn how to say this all in one hundred per year. chris chambers journalism professor at georgetown university and so weigh in on tonight's show a hundred forty characters or less tweet at me about abscesses right there on the screen for now have a great night. can

. start. to. blow and welcome across our computor all about syria and the law of unintended consequences as the syrian civil war crimes on calls for an outside military intervention grows louder and louder while at the same time there is ample evidence that foreign countries and groups are already waging a clandestine war in the country it is hard to see a peaceful end to this conflict particularly for the people on the ground. live to take. to cross not the

civil war in syria i'm joined by rod one day in washington he's a visiting scholar at the institute for middle east studies at the elliott school of international affairs at george washington university also in washington we go to jacob hornberger he is founder and president of the future of freedom foundation and in new york we have to leave all of your own he is the united nations director at human rights watch all right gentlemen crosstalk rosenberg and you can jump in anytime you want jacob if i can go to you first i've been watching the syrian conflict and american british t.v. western media in general and it's basically good guys and bad guys so can you explain to me who the good guys are and who are the bad guys are because we have a regime that's killing its own people and we have an armed insurrection resorting to terrorism so please tell me who are the good guys and the bad guys. well i think it's always difficult to tell in this kind of situation i mean you've got a dictatorship there and traditionally a dictatorship is the bad guys i mean there's there's traditionally nothing good

about a dictatorship and this happens to be one of the most brutal dictatorships in the world you've got an armed insurrection and that as i understand it human rights watch is now accused of some major human rights atrocities. and what are the issues involved here i would be the last one to to be an expert in that area i have always taken the position in my foundation has taken the position that this is a problem for the syrians to resolve civil war is never a nice beautiful little thing with nice beautiful outcomes that the u.s. ought to stay out of this thing and just leave this to be resolved by the syrians one way or the other people or do you come out on that in one in new york i mean i guess we have to go ahead because again we have this kind of it's kind of bipolar you know good guys and i'd like to write them in. yes we have no documented major atrocities against the opposition which we did is yesterday we sent

a letter to the syrian national council raising some issues we've we've started the committee some cases of abuse by position forces it's not clear how much control see an actual color kelty of the free syrian army have over them but you know there's been a few instances where the activists have you know summary executive people maybe tortured kidnapped. so there are a couple of problems there and we think the syrian national council should speak out even though they don't necessarily control of these people but of course you need to put that back into perspective and could to arm the opposition and the same level as the government government forces for for your own though have committed mass atrocities committed with we things that we think are crimes against humanity they've killed hundreds thousands of people they've detained. hundreds of people

in some cases they've killed children they tortured children they've used len mines at the border oh so you know you have a. few instances that are disturbing and should be addressed but only a few instances of abuse because it should force as a government and that's a that's waging a brutal campaign against its own people ok running in a very angry you in washington i mean it to what degree are opposition figures in groups in syria committing atrocities particularly if they're getting outside help and there's ample evidence that there is a question help for the opposition in syria do they have blood on their hands to. let me correct here there is a doppler shift is committed by those here not sure and council of the free syrian army this is a human rights violations and we. received a letter and i just last week from geneva we're actually we're meeting with the commission of inquiry on the commissioner for human rights and we are fully called

betty with all this you know more eyes very lesions committed by this thirty or other. groups even down so we don't feel the house responsibility so they don't go on flawed but this for me let me clarify because this this proposal by the ground thank you soo many t.v. we're actually systematic and widespread committed by the assad regime for almost a year and the international economy community did nothing for us. and there are so delusional you know i mean show you why should the rich why you don't really have nothing why should the international community do something for you why will it make things better this is of course because it will make things better because it was thousand and sizes that are going to have to go five thousand and five united nation. summit with two words the responsibility for what's called the. responsibility to protect when i state that actually committed to crimes

against humanity genocide war crimes there are sponsibility of the international community who have to responsibility. for this crime degassing how many solution there is a national committee not allowed for other a one or other crimes against humanity continue in syria well this is me i should not say lays down for diversity countries in the world should be intervened into jake if i can go back to you the west is supporting the opposition so there is no excuse here legally to wonder how they're going to go back to washington jake and the west is supporting one side in a civil war so violence begets violence how can that possibly resolve it's not going to stay here again in washington and right now we've seen our head shake up. well you know let's put things in perspective when the u.s. government kidnapped a canadian citizen it dulles airport and this was trying to decide what country to

rendition to him to for the purpose of torture which regime did they select to do that they selected in that case the syrian regime so they have absolutely nothing against dictatorships as long as the dictatorship is doing what they're there bidding we look at look at egypt's military dictatorship and you know that's one of the most brutal dictatorships in the world as well we've been funneling billions of dollars so that they take or ship or decades we're continuing to funnel money that dictatorship so there's a lot of hypocrisy going on here when we talk about u.s. foreign policy we're really not talking about freedom democracy we're talking about putting regimes in there will become loyal members of the us empire and will do their bidding when they need it that's where the hypocrisy comes into this feel of it one of the things that is that again going back to this kind of binary coverage and you know excuse me i'm going to sleep in in new york right now we have media

that has this kind of binary view of the good guys bad guys here but we haven't there is the assad regime does have popular support to what degree we don't really know because media coverage there is very limited but the alawite certainly support him and other minorities support him it's not black and white he does have some popular support and those people want to keep their privilege and their lives and livelihoods are mostly. yeah and i work problem is no it's really with is like a reporter problem is with the massive human rights violations his regime has been committed for for commuting for months now it's been a year it's over eight thousand people who died and you know you also and well so. well sorry you're right that under the control of any other country right now that was really going to leave all of the usual to the eight thousand is over this is because there is no evidence yet where the evidence is you know there were

researchers talking to victims is that the overwhelming number of casualties peaceful civilians and it's people are simply demonstrating and they've been shot at by a sniper or security forces or militias it's not. the government would like you to believe but a large number of policemen. of the military even though we acknowledged that some have been have been killed but of course it's no excuse. to shoot at children or should you know i to him and and did you know the international community has a responsibility to protect the syrian people and frankly right now the problem is not what we call the international community right now the problem is that russia and china in the u.n. security council have been blocking significant action film aunts and moans and that's the reason why all in the thing as the reason is why is that why should the

international community quote unquote nato and its allies led by the united states determine which machine should rule and which should not run when if i go to you how would you describe the opposition in syria are these jeffersonian democrats or are they some people are they religious fanatics do they want to do the sunni's are being supported by saudi arabia eccentric cetera i mean it's not black and white the there's a lot of oppositions in syria. it's fair starch least is someone that got our sense of board off that side that he seem now that syrians has been killed actually by our strong women so we're actually that russia continue backing down so that he might and with iran yesterday when activist actually he send them in. to me some for those who are actually it's a woman's just made by russia and chip going to team those are syrians this was after seems to be in russia is going to the iranians to sort of this is why i

support humanitarian aid for the syrian people under united nations security council resolution this is that the same time you jacob if i could it's very interesting you know you're trying to go i think jay is this all just about regime change geo political advantage in your opinion it's not about human rights. of course not this is the great game where the people of different administrations there are trying to get their people in the public office it just happens to be a foreign regime where they're trying to do that i mean i think that one of the important things to recognize about what's going on in syria is is that when you have a dictatorship it shows that the only way you're going to be able al said dictatorship you know since there's no democracy is by through violence there's no other way and that if people take that step and jefferson pointed out in the declaration of independence that that's a step that people should take very cautiously because revolutions and civil wars end up with a lot of death and destruction and that it's up to the syrians to make that call

once you get foreign intervention in there and you've got u.s. bombs dropping in missiles dropping you're going to see a lot more people killed people that may very well say this is not what we call for so it's not up to the u.s. government to be cavalier is saying we can kill as many people as we want to bring you democracy like they did in iraq ok gentlemen i'm going to jump in here and go to a break and after that short break we'll continue with syrian scenario stay with r.t. . if you stay. to excuse. wealthy british style.

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go. see video on demand r.t.s. mindful of costs an r.s.s. feeds now in the palm of your. question. the same. playbook can see. welcome back to people about to mind we're talking about what a weight series. to take you.

right i mean in washington i'd like to ask you do you support a western military intervention into syria to topple the regime of assad let's to be clear actually no one is is in line for your cooperation in his own accounting if you like to have any intervention anything that you like as a last. cherry on the syrian in syria that's my question let me continue my answer but i would like you can answer mine as i answer i saw my students you know i am sorry my question would you like to see a western military international scene out of iraq so you're saying to me and you say this once off the seat and i'm rising star. i don't dance are questions like. why not it's a very simple i have asked i thought i answered your question as i see in my respective go ahead you have to give me some time or otherwise. was instrumental in you shall now go answer the question that's why you're here yeah.

no no one syrian is accepted or likely for intervention in his own country when they see it on our prizing started in now and in march last two last year this year and we will it has six or seven months calling against any military intervention but after the crimes against humanity continue in syria and there be they have an options they need they have their i.q. returned themselves no one will accept actually the people the civilians to be killed the children women to be killed what's happening in burma is a true one we are actually i said militias such as bihar they came and slatter their children more than forty six children i will remain in wondering why would you lie for you this is why would you lie international i mean to do what would you like the international community to do then syria the international community here

they have the responsibility to protect this city is that the city what does that mean they have to start to end all this ground and using the money to one of their syrians called to implement a save zone and i how it should be protected by a limited no fly zone above there's even a to the area where all races actually want to see it and they are and have been calling for us for a month why would you want to no fly zone when the syrian government is not using planes or helicopters it doesn't make any sense. you know they use their they use their brains. and. they of course they don't have the muscles coming from their reins but they show their cities and areas from their planes ok for this is what you say you know york you know you're going on i promise you this is a military intervention will correct and the human rights violation will just make things worse violence begets violence ok and then we could become internationalized

which i'd like to move the conversation to that because the words liberalization militarisation go together right here we have a country that could collapse and bring in its neighbors has all the neighbors have a certain peace a certain idea of what they want the geopolitical order to be if there is a regime change. well as a human rights organization we all know it's for military intervention in syria and we let against it either and we are fully aware of the debates around and hard and tough questions that this brings but short of military intervention there is still the international community can do to try and. there is a u.n. in the u.n. security council can do i mean it's been a year zero eight thousand people dead and a single resolution passed by the security council the security council at this stage should impose sanctions targeted sanctions on the syrian leadership involved

in the violence it should have imposed an arms embargo. to the intellectual criminal court so there is a lot of the security council should do and there's no for the simple reason that russia and china will know if this is this the reason is called the simple reason is called libya ok jake i think this is one of the things that's really tragic about the whole situation because there is a civil war in in syria right now and it's by i agree with you they're going to have to resolve it themselves one way or another but it was the entire precedent of libya that is really done this because great powers like russia and china will say ok now you pick another country you don't like and you'll change regime which one will be next that is the logic of how the the live the situation in libya is played out in the russians and the chinese and others are seeing the same thing. absolutely i mean they they create these un resolutions that are supposedly tightly

constrained but as soon as they're approved their language is very used to justify anything and what is part of this was this humanitarian intervention in libya which ends up with a regime that is just as bad as the previous regime and so when you have these kind of internal revolutions and civil wars there's no way to predict the outcome it's like it's iraq you know while tiger you just don't know where it's going to end up in syria the rebels want to get rid of this dictatorship that's why they're rebelling the dictatorship is saying we're not going how do you resolve that kind of conflict. seems to me there is no resolution except through continued violence or unless somebody gives up and as of right now nobody is ready to give up but humanitarian intervention military intervention i'll libya it's only going to fuel the fire it's only going to make things worse it's going to bring more death and destruction and i want to in washington what do you think about that what's the

endgame what would you like to see happen because it's quite possible that syria could end up being partitions because you do have minority groups that do not want to be ruled by sunni's they fear for their life they would be ethnic cleansing and as matter of fact most western interventions over the last decade ended with terrorism ethnic cleansing and a lot of instability and violence and regimes not particularly friendly to the west by the way. there is no i actually and it's me conflict in syria our sixth year in syria the syrian uprising or the cedar revolution in biology cynic and sectarian groups we have ally in the leadership of the s.n.c. we have we have christiane we have the dollars and we have new situations in every b.s. even that insulated our we actually the it was our consulate created a concentrated and in different areas we had actually the christan have been participating in the uprising there is no six here and this is one good thing so

that this in ceded when established not on the sectarian b.s. not to be them states has been in iraq on iran before we have actually coalition of different political parties not on this experience bears or b. is rather out of the people who are supporting democracy and dignity and human eyes for the seat and report and this is the goal or has to be achieved by either seat and we will after all of the stick or phases i don't think they see it and we will accept for exacerbation to continue rolling that country with on his a lot of proud in his hand and the crown to visit him anything special i said should who hold accountable under international criminal court for the crime said his humanity committed a case of the syrian be ok could you feel when do you think the west is going to get tired of nation building i mean at least in the last decade year i can't think of any one that is worked out very well ok and it seems that this is again where

using the military to create a new society is that make any sense to you because it seems that every time we keep trying to do it we end up with an unintended consequence that's how i started the program. absolutely i mean things are just so worse than ever you look at look at how many people were killed in iraq there were two to put in a brutal regime there that pie the way is more pro whereon and they are pro u.s. and then here in afghanistan finally people i mean you see conservatives are now the thought of finally calling for the end of the occupation can years of occupation this is a good sign but a little too late ok philip i mean what are your concerns about what the opposition is doing in syria because again we have very limited information in the media your organization may have more insight here i mean is the opposition getting stronger in this use of force and fair enough maybe in self-defense but i mean there are arms going in there there's going to very strong evidence that the opposition is being trained by outsiders i mean it's just the spiral of violence is getting worse

and worse ok i mean is this a major concern that you have right now because this is i mean a lot of people don't like to use the word civil war but i think it looks like a civil war now. well for for many months you know the opposition was and was overwhelmingly peaceful it's and you have to being shut out for months and months and seeing people killed around and the that some people have taken up arms and indeed you know we have documented a few cases that are worrying of extrajudicial executions the use of torture but again you know the overwhelming majority of the violence is still coming from the us government right now and the problem is that these notorious feeling international pressure because with russia very powerful ally it has a powerful ally. in the security council against any significance you know pressure. really pick the arms embargo evaluate from human rights watch we have

seen arming many as you and measures regimes committing mass atrocities the things you think they should you know if they're still russia was ok to pressure the assad regime it does make clear to him that it's not ok to bomb civilian neighborhoods like you know we have the right dialogue children can we have the right dialogue the side of syria the wrong way philip could be more dialogue should now would be the international community should be scoring dialogue inside of syria and not giving arms and training it should be dialogue. well we let the political organisation which we do is really to convince women rights violations so i work for you or it's the right is really to tell china and to rush out to stop supporting the syrian regime the syrian government needs to feel the pressure of the pressure of the u.n. security council so right now the russian government. has said the regime is a speechwriter now i did tweet as recently. as we speak now

a resolution is being discussed it towards that end here jake i'm going to give you the last word on the program here is the what's your prognosis it's going to get far far worse before it gets better i don't know i think it's always impossible to predict these sorts of things hopefully it will get better but again i just don't see an end game for this one of these things we just watch it play out and hope for the best but in the meantime i just reiterate that keep the u.s. out of this because all they do is just make things worse all right gentlemen we've run out of time very spirited debate many thanks to my guest today in washington and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here to see you next time and remember rostock rules. can. still.

you know how sometimes you see a story and it seems so for like you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else and hear or see some other part of it and realize that everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm tom harpur welcome to the big picture. wealthy british style. sometimes the title of. the. markets why not. come to. find out what's really happening to the global economy with mike's cars or for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune in to cause report on

our keep. me busy eating. meat. that's cool.