eleven thirty am in moscow these iraqi headlines rubber bullets and tear gas used against the regime demonstrators and bought brain who came out to defend doctors and nurses being retried for treating injured protesters military forces accused of killing scores of people and arresting fauzi of since the revolt broke out last year. israel says no timeline to stop iran from getting a nuclear bomb has been freed with the u.s. goal washington warns of a regional war that could leave hundreds of americans dead if israel strikes. the

u.s. soldier suspected of massacring afghan civilians most of them children are expected to be charged with seventeen counts of murder and staff sergeant robert bales currently awaiting trial in a military prison and could face the death penalty if convicted. and in the wake of the shootings in toulouse peter lavelle and guess discuss the issues of national identity and globalization and cross talk coming your way next. and you can. still. continue to. blow in the welcome across town people about tragedy fear and a lot of politics the massacre in toulouse france again highlights the lack of consensus in europe and the western world when it comes to national identity and the impact of globalization in election year there's a lot of talk about controlling immigration but is the essence of western maternity

the real problem. you can. start. to cross not the issue of violence and globalization i'm joined by kent and karate in stockholm he's a member of the sweden democrats party and a member of the swedish parliament and oxford we go to roger griffin he is a professor and academic political theorist at oxford brookes university and in leeds we have mohammed shafique he is the chief executive and founding member of the ramadan foundation all right gentlemen this is cross talk means you can jump in anytime you want roger i'd like to go to you first as i pointed out in the introduction this is an election year and we have seen elections all through europe since the financial crisis of two thousand and eight we've seen a significant drift to what i would call what most people would call the right ok and i must say that mr is that of course he campaigning for reelection as pandered to the right trying to capture madame le pen's constituency and then we have this

her wrist think incident massacre and to lose what's the connection if any in your mind. well the connection between the massacre as you call it. is. perceptible shift to the right i would say non-existent the fact is that the it remains to be seen how. it's terrible so to go events in toulouse will impact on the election it could actually cut two ways it could actually. give a great burst of wards a nod or a moderation no if you follow through the impact of the bravery last july they did not cause a great right wing backlash in norway on the contrary there was a great show of solidarity with ethnic minorities and i've interviewed people in low since that incident and they feel more safe now asked though the guy who i talked to had his bags packed to leave immediately after the shootings but he now

feels that he and his family are more secure and also than before on the other hand . there might be a small minority in france who somehow feel but. the fact that this was carried out not by a right winger but by somebody who claims and i say claims to have received instructions from islamism would actually give a push to to the right so. it's it's too early to say across and it could cut both ways ok mohammed in leeds madame le pen say she's completely vindicated in her policies on immigration and the french identity project how do you feel about that she's been vindicated she claims. well i think it's very dangerous for marine le pen to jump on this bandwagon of demonizing muslims and immigrants what we've got to be very clear is that as france consider terms with the massacre in toulouse we've got to deal with this in a responsible way and it's up to politicians in particularly presidents of causey

and francis alone to behave responsibly to tone down the rhetoric and to not demonizing the whole community and faith system and roger is right this person who's carried out this terrible terrible crime killing muslim christian soldiers and those beautiful children the jewish school only a few days ago had one mission and that was to. divide french society and we should not succeed in the underlying. pain. so cosy and others on the far right have got to be very careful in the wreckage that they use and i you know today president sarkozy give a speech which was very balanced and very. very interesting it was louis' very today ok but during the campaign it has been very balanced ok has a new he's pandered with very much on my part peter i'm sorry go ahead of wishful

thinking on my part so you can say wishful thinking on my part presence of course he was very policy was very statesman like today i really picked up on the point he said that he shouldn't hold all the muslim faith or the muslim community responsible for the actions of one minus talk i think that's very welcome i hope that he carries this on into the election campaign pretty his record speaks for itself he's somebody who jumps at the chance to demonize the muslim community well attack immigrants i think came. from the same side of the argument ok can't even go to and start from this is very interesting because it wasn't from what we would call a right wing fanatic or what we saw in norway this is a person that would presumably was influenced by islamic ideas or possibly al-qaeda what does this tell you about europe's immigration policy. well you know this is not the first time muslim attack has happened and it's interesting to see the difference you know when the brave massacre happened no one you know had any to

any problems with trying to create what he did with the movements in the air are critical to the current immigration policies no one everyone jumped on the wagon but now when there's a muslim it's something that no one says it's just a lone gunman even though it in fact was the lone gunman this is apparent that we've seen in europe many times before in america and all around the world is happening every day and it's obviously has something to do with immigration levels and policies in europe for the last forty years and we've created a situation this is not a divide that someone is trying to create a sarkozy all of them is trying to create in france it's divide it's already existing their class has been growing for a very long time now roger to be trying to respond to that a double standard. i'd like to take it on a slightly different tack if you don't mind i mean i think it really does come down to the way journalists and political elites frame what's happened but i think there's a great opportunity now for the for both responsible liberal minded politicians

and faith leaders to rise to point out the radical distinction between the interesting you just used in your question you use the word islamic instead of islam is the result the provide or profound. between moderate and islamism and there is an opportunity created by all sorts incidents for people to get think more clearly about the distinction between islam and islamism and actually celebrate the the ok ok margie have a go ahead i just to respond i just going to pick up two key points i made a point is that you know the labels are not very clear you know let us be very clear. these are people who are carrying out such evil acts they don't represent my faith. in the same way but he. does not represent the christian faith

he had christian ideas we don't see christian terrorist christian extremists mention across the across the community like nobody seems to be when he seems to be a muslim to do the headlines and his papers are commentators and you politician free our m.p. friend from stockholm there is indicating that there seems to be this preconceived prejudice towards immigrants and i think will be good for course on is a positive contribution immigrants to make a pretty british and also utopian society and we should celebrate that we should be bringing people together not pulling people apart ok camp you want to jump in there go ahead. yeah the comparison is false i mean if you look at bray because he was christian but then he phrased the nordic ancient gods he said he was against nazis and what he was in agreement of sixty percent in march ideology is against islam but he wanted to research the islamic caliphate in the middle east to help the new european cities i mean this guy was all over the place he was

a low man man but if you look at islamism that's that's a word that the west came up with to distinguish it from islam but if you look at one of the most influential islamic scholars today. he said that he is something more of islam and even even muslim scholars in sweden says that he represents moderate islam now if carry on looks articulate islam you apply only systemic viewpoint i think that's quite dangerous i think you know i'm looking to take lectures from somebody apparently a secular political versity that exist within the muslim community what we've got to be very careful in this debate in is the generalization that is being carried out by our friend. in stockholm we recognise we accept as a muslim community we've got an additional responsibility because these people come from our community they these are people who are brainwashed these people who carry out these evil acts and we've got to confront the nationalists happy you know you

can't do that at the same time as listening to politicians jumping on this plan right and trying to score cheap political points as kent is doing from stockholm roger frank you know what i wish there were more people like you but if you look at surveys made from england this is a big big part of the muslim community because sharia laws. cannot go on as you violence i want to insult islam and i think you know very strange. is very dangerous for you can't you make general statements like that not back up by evidence a vast majority of british muslims are passionate about living in this country with passionate europeans and me. by the law and is done now we do whatever we can to protect this country you seem to have this your own agenda you seem to have your own issues i think you need to go away in a corner and for the referring to your call the second evangelist in great britain i'm the first opinion polls published in great britain at universities i'm a muslim population in general this is i don't need people to be on the i'm going

to be gentlemen i don't know roger i'd like to go to roger in oxford roger do you think that is in the wake of this tragedy is that is are going to be the focus on immigration or what kind of society each member of the european union is all about be it you know british or french or whatever i mean when i'm saying is it is the identity project or is it immigration because they can be a binary. all these are complicated issues i mean every country is different and every city in each country is different and it's very difficult to generalize what worries me is that not mainstream liberal commentators have not addressed i do quickly really serious issues about identity and there are issues about cultural identity and feeling that the country is strange in character and then there's a sort of goo in britain on the part of mainstream parties to even talking about these issues affective way and that does tend to create a space for the for the right to come in and talk about identity and in countries where there are populous parties such as in france and. france and switzerland and

germany and sweden. that. they are able to actually. legitimately put on the agenda issues about culture and the simulation and integration which are not being dealt with adequately outside but the trouble is that incidents such as the one in toulouse tend to feed to the idea that that the threat to europe is one of islamisation now is lionized race right on that point one point we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the problem of national identity in the bad state of our. ok.

well. it's not all stunning games as barcelona host the biggest gathering of the year in this digitized world stage connections like never before and a whole host of new services field seems to live is now quick right away. but don't get lost in the crowd with one russian bloc that proves all the stereotypes wrong take knowledge your card. live. live live. live can still. listen to the. live welcome back across i'm going to imagine we're talking about the far right politics in your. lives

can start living. ok can't i go back to you in stock and i think extrapolating from from what roger said earlier in the program i mean since the two thousand and eight we've had this financial crisis in europe is vic's may experience enormous austerity in some member countries of the european union and a lot of people would claim their party's like yours and i'm saying some people might claim and i want you to answer is that you've been you've been able to take advantage of the financial crisis and economic woes and how europe is changing demographically to go after the identity issue and extrapolate from that the immigration issue is that a fair thing to say because is there a certain problems that everyone's experiencing and you're looking forward to for lack of a better word a scapegoat issue. i don't agree at all if you look. from two thousand to two thousand and ten. we had you know the economy was going good there was no financial

crisis and during this period parties like ours for instance the danish people's parties and others were constantly growing i don't think we need a financial crisis to grow what we say is rooted in the reality that common people live in and experience every day so we don't need a financial crisis we just need we're telling the truth telling what's happening in our society that no one else is that's why we are growing and to come back to identity parts i mean when you talk about islamisation islam immigration violence and the suicide bombings and the time is one part of it and that's bad enough as the friends example recently goes to show but identity issue of the changes in society where people don't feel home in their own city or country anymore it's a very very big problem that is still only discussed they will have an example from . the city that swedes are moving out of the city and when the city around asked them why are you moving out they said because we don't feel at home city anymore

and this is a problem that's away from violence but it's still a huge problem for sweets and feel home in their own country and we are addressing these problems again how much do you think do you think will be because i mean ok we can pick it every year you want but when it refutable that there is a movement to the right in europe politically ok and i think it's nicely correlated with the financial crisis of two thousand and eight ok i would agree to the rather transfer two thousand into the present irrefutable ok are the right wing parties taking too much advantage of this because you know i look at the austerity things i see elites not fixing problems for everybody not just for certain people and this gives an opening as roger pointed out a window of opportunity to kind of change the subject and demonized in and create tension in society that is not necessary because it's not dealing with the real problems that everyone is facing and it's almost always just the economy. well i think if you look at what kate was saying about. identity and the third swedish

city well wouldn't it be better if the swedes rather the city actually stayed with the muslim community worked with the minority communities to build a cohesive society identity would expose ways it's not just responsibilities of minority communities to integrate themselves there's a responsibility of those communities to do that as well and what is very dangerous across europe now is that there is this this new obsession by the far right including by key people like kent who want to demonize and attack islam and everything it stands for was so if it's not just attacking the headscarf it's attacking our way of life it's talking a lot of meat and these are very dangerous times for european muslims what we must also commit to is that yes we reject violence but we also commit to having a healthy debate on these issues and it's going to be done on facts not on fiction a norm preconceived prejudice sometimes we hear from the from the far right across europe ok can jump in reply i think it's border i think it's bordering rude to tell

swedish people who then that up in the ghettos that other politicians are created to tell them to stay with you to make a generous where is there a genuine freedom is a reason clearly to use them for him they shouldn't really will see the. area they don't want to live in. ok muhammad you want to i can't can't can't i think that i think is pleasing and discriminatory and offensive that you come on international television you need general sweeping statements about my faith in my community and not expect a reaction you need to get your frustrations you need to step away from your prejudice i have my facts straight i was given as you know you to like. me when i can i go to roger in oxford going to like yeah look can i just say that my perspective on all this is very different because i don't represent a party nor a faith community i'm just an academic trying to handle these complicated issues

and i think there's a rather to try to. keep going i don't know that i just. started to study it i know it's a joke is about it but i'd really like to say that something's being lost now work out having what they call inferential dialogue of death because i haven't heard kent demonize anybody and i think and i think that it's very dangerous to start living out i mean stereotypes of the great grave danger here now let me just take a moment out here to make a couple of distinctions there is a radical distinction between an extreme right wing neo nazi terroristic violent hitler worshipping white supremacist far right and populist politicians are so loosely called who have grave misgivings about the degree to which a national community can absorb. estimate minorities especially minorities from a very different religion and culture another second group are not to be conflated

with me and answers they are and they are raising the legitimate concerns about about how you run a multicultural society and similarly on the on the on the far right and i can't is not part of the far right there is a very grave danger of confusing islam with islam islam now is. messam is indeed an integral part of islam it does use fundamentalist references to aspects of islam scripturally to justify its hate and war against the west but it is an extraordinarily small minority faction within islam in the in europe that is drawn towards this so i just think we've got to sort of really make use our responsibility as part of the elite of society is elite because we're articulate and we have the time and luxury to study these things to actually be a voice of sanity and moderation here there are genuine issues about identity in

europe but it doesn't help if we start making big confusions like the english defense league because for example in britain between islam and islamism and then talk about the islamization of society not all muslims what are her religion people here really are a gentle gentle and i mean one. i'm glad all of us have to tell you about this but we're not politicians well i just can't you are me it's an acquired a sense here but i mean politicians do take advantage of these things here but i mean let me go to you first because i think that rogers was very articulate about the situation on the ground go ahead moment. i look i'm not i'm not saying. katie is a new nazi but i'm saying that when you make sweeping statements against the muslim faith oh i know i'm going saying i've never said i you know i think if you if you think that i really knew i'm just kidding you place to what you've said in assure you you've. really these are the same people who follow the same right wing ideology which is around demonizing people of faith and particularly muslims so if

it's not allowed it's a headscarf it's the only car it's the density we want to live in europe this is our home we were born in this continent we committed to protecting this continent is going to be a two way street it can't just be one way traffic and i think yes we've got issues to deal with yes there are serious questions about integration there are serious questions about immigration but it has on wider society but it's going to be done in an environment of calmness and based on every you know ok so i'm going to have let me just in here in times of politicians going to demonizing community which i think is wrong ok candidly i did go to you and i'd like to broaden this out a little bit here because i think sometimes we get very micro and i really appreciate the contribution roger is made to broaden the discussion as well but it's really the european union that is failing as well it is less and less democratic through time and people do not feel that they are part of that process anymore and i think that makes people fall back on very particular identities

because being the european union is run by a small group of elites and now that we're going to get you know because he says that merkel is her his best friend but at the same time he's talking about protectionism and you know and then the whole european project or whatever it means to be european which probably means less and less through time because of the way it's dysfunctional you know this is why people fall back on very specific identities and i'm not just talking about you know the french or the swedes when i'm talking about how people from different base feel in different countries. go ahead. you know the. year is self and we're a coast to european union the way it's functioning today no doubt but that identity is in europe it's not the pentagon the opinion and you know part of the why the opinion doesn't work is because we have very strong national defense this to begin with and when you talk about islamisation in this context it's not i'm not saying

that every muslim in europe this is part of a huge conspiracy to take over europe but europe is being islam ised just from the fact that muslims and whatnot but have their culture wants to live in accordance with their culture and their religion that's how our society is going islamist law itself i mean i'm not sure i understand this term here and i think it's very important i will mean clearly this is a very carefully even as he had only one gentlemen we end the program for saddam to say something then go to my heart here i mean really at the end of last year there was a it was a demographic research that came out that the by two thousand and fifty two equal number of jews and muslims in europe are talking about the is motivation of europe is a bit farfetched if you're looking at numbers mohamed go ahead. and you know i mean essentially the cain is not demonizing the muslim community please listen to some of the statements he's made in in his thirty minutes suggest to you that he's got

an issue with a muslim community muslim faith like you said vast majority of muslims i live with them across the course here in the united kingdom they lied by the law in this line they're happy to live in a christian majority country they have to follow the rule of law and yes the rule of law in this country and across europe and i was right for is to practice our faith according to our own wishes and that's freedom that's liberal democracy something which seems to be immune according to kant from sweden. all right roger i'm going to live with i'm going to give roger the last word twenty seconds go ahead well last word i think we have to remember that liberal democracy was a very long painful procrustes process to grow out of a europe which was ripping itself apart in sectarian walls between different parts of christianity and now we have a chance to actually make it a genuinely multi-faith multi-cultural society but we've got to really address every major responsive note roger thank you very much and let's remember the victims not to lose ok many thanks to my guest today in stockholm oxford and in

leeds and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are see you next time and remember crossfire. can start. if you want. from.

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