you watching us see in a moment it's crossed that the e.u. mounts fresh pressure on the syrian regime to agree to a travel ban and asset freeze or president assad's family members including his wife and washington is also threatening damascus even more if assad doesn't comply with the u.n. statement of feeling first the start. of its claim the fukushima officials deleted e-mails detailing evacuation routes at the height of the nuclear crisis japan's computer system designed to predict the spread of radioactive releases was

apparently ignored putting lives in danger. israel says no timeline to stop iran from getting a nuclear bomb has been agreed upon with the u.s. while washington warns of a regional war that would leave hundreds dead if israel were to strike iraq. now in the wake of the shootings in two people a bell and his guests discuss issues of globalization and that of integration. right now. can. start. to think. long and welcome to cross talk i'm people about tragedy fear and a lot of politics the massacre in toulouse france again highlights the lack of consensus in europe and the western world when it comes to national identity and the impact of globalization in election year there's

a lot of talk about controlling immigration but is the essence of western maternity the real problem. can. you cross the issue of violence and globalization i'm joined by ken and karate in stockholm he's a member of the sweden democrats party and a member of the swedish parliament and oxford we go to roger griffin he is a professor and academic political theorist at oxford brookes university and in leeds we have mohammed shafique he is the chief executive and founding member of the ramadan foundation all right gentlemen this is cross talk to me as you can jump in anytime you want roger i'd like to go to you first as i pointed out in the introduction this is an election year and we have seen elections all through europe since the financial crisis of two thousand and eight we've seen a significant drift to what i would call what most people would call the right ok and i must say that mr is not a cosy campaigning for reelection as pandered to the right trying to capture madame

le pen's constituency and then we have this horrific incident massacre in toulouse what's the connection if any in your mind. well the connection between the massacre as you call it. and the psychos is a perceptible shift to the right i would say a nonexistent the fact is that the it remains to be seen how terrible set of events in toulouse will impact on the election it could actually cut two ways it could actually. give a great purse to all it's a moderate moderation know if you follow through the impact of the brave rick suitings last july they did not cause a great right wing backlash in norway on the contrary there was a great show of solidarity with ethnic minorities and i've interviewed people in low since that incident and they feel more safe now asked though the guy who i

talked to had his bags packed to leave immediately after the shootings but he now feels that he and his family are more secure and also than before on the other hand . there might be a small minority in france who somehow feel that. the fact that this was carried out not by a right wing a book by somebody who claims and i say claims to have received instructions from islamism would actually give a push to to the right so. it's it's too early to say a person who could cut both ways ok mohammed in leeds made him look and say she's completely vindicated in her policies on immigration and the french identity project how do you feel about that she's been vindicated she claims. well i think it's very dangerous for marine le pen to jump on this bandwagon of pima nineteen muslims and immigrants what we've got to be very clear is that as france consider

to be a massacre in toulouse they've got to deal with this in a responsible way and it's up to call attention to him particularly presidents because the affronts us alone to behave responsibly to tone down the rhetoric and to not demonize the whole community and faith system i roger is right this person who's carried out this terrible terrible crime killing muslim christian soldiers and those beautiful children of the jewish school only a few days ago had one mission and that was to. divide french society and we should not succeed in that and the likes of. pain. so cozy and others on the far right have got to be very careful in the record that they use and i you know today president sarkozy give a speech which was very balanced and very thick you know it's very. very interesting it was louise very today ok but during the campaign it has been very

balanced ok has a new business plan which very much on my part peter i'm sorry go ahead what wishful thinking on my part so you can say wishful thinking on my part of your presence of course he was very balanced he was very statesman like today really picked up on a point he said that he shouldn't hold the muslim faith or the muslim community responsible for the actions of one minus i think that's very welcome i hope he carries on into the election campaign but his record speaks for itself he's somebody who jumps at the chance to demonize the muslim community and attack immigrants and i think him and come from the same side of the argument ok can't even go to and start from this is very interesting because it wasn't from what we would call a right wing fanatic like we saw in norway this is a person that would presumably was influenced by islamic ideas or possibly al qaeda what does this tell you about europe's immigration policy. well you know this is not the first time muslim attack has happened and it's interesting to see the

difference you know when the brave massacre happened no one had any did any problems with trying to equate what he did with the movements in the air are critical to the current immigration policies no one ever on jump on the wagon but now when there's a muslim it's something that no one says it's just a lone gunman even though bray week in fact was the lone gunman this is apparent that we've seen in europe many times before in america and all around the world it's happening every day and it's obviously has something to do with immigration levels and policies in europe for the last forty years. create a situation this is not a divide that someone is trying to create a sarkozy or le pen is trying to create in france it's a divide that is already existing in their class has been growing for a very long time now roger to be trying to respond to that a double standard. i'd like to take it on a slightly different tack if you don't mind i mean i think it really does come down

to the way journalists and political elites frame was happened i think there's a great opportunity now for the for both responsible liberal minded politicians and faith leaders to rise to point out the radical distinction between interesting you just used in your question you use the word islamic instead of islam is the result divide or profound business between moderate islam and islamism and there is an opportunity created by all sorts incidents for people to get think more clearly about the distinction between islam and islamism and actually celebrate the the ok ok how would you have a go ahead i just to respond. to key points the point is you know the labels are not very clear you know very. these are people who are carrying out such evil acts

they don't represent my faith very in the same way but he. does not represent the christian faith you know he had christian ideas we can see christian terrorist christian extremists mention across the across the media like him always seems to be when he seems to be a muslim to do the headlines in the newspapers the commentators and you politician fray are m.p. for him from stockholm there is indicating that there seems to be this preconceived prejudice towards immigrants and i think what we've got to focus on is a positive contribution immigrants to make a pretty british and also utopian society and we should celebrate that we should be bringing people together not pulling people apart ok can't you want to jump in there go ahead. yeah the comparison is false i mean if you look at brady he said he was christian but then he praised the nordic ancient gods he said he was against nazis and what he was in agreement for sixty percent of nurture geology is against islam but he want to research the islamic caliphate in the middle east to help the

new cities i mean this guy was all over the place he was a low man man but if you look at islam islam that's the word that the west came up with to to distinguish it from islam but if you look at one of the most influential islamic scholars today. he said he is something more of islam and even even muslim scholars in sweden says that he represents moderate islam now if carry on with something more like islam you of heroism islam it viewpoint i think that's quite dangerous i think you know i'm not going to take lectures from somebody about the sexual political versity that exist within the muslim community but we've got to be very careful in this debate is the generalization there is being carried out by a vile friend. in stockholm we recognize we accept as a muslim community we've got additional responsibility because these people come

from our community they these are people who are brainwashed these people who carry out these evil acts and we've got to from the nationalists happy to you know you can't do that at the same time as listening to politicians jumping on this plan we're going to try to child store cheap political points as kent is doing from stockholm roger thank you lord i wish there were more people like you but if you look at surveys made from england there's a big big part of the muslim community because sharia laws. cannot go on as you violent and i will insult islam i think you know very strange for you. it's very difficult to make general statements like that are not backing up by evidence a vast majority of british muslims are passionate about living in this country with passionate europeans and me. by the longest time now we do whatever we can to protect this country you seem to have this all you your own agenda you seem to have your own issues i think you need to go away in a corner and. until you can call the sock anybody least in great britain on the first opinion polls publish in great britain at universities among muslim

population in general this is going to be on the range and gentlemen i don't know roger i'd like to go to roger in oxford roger do you think that is in the wake of this tragedy is that is are going to be the focus on immigration or what kind of society each member of the european union is all about be it you know british or french or whatever i mean when i'm saying is it is the identity project or is it immigration because they can be a binary. these are complicated issues i mean every country is different and every city in each country is different and it's very difficult to generalize what worries me is that most mainstream liberal parties have not addressed adequately really serious issues about identity and there are issues about cultural identity and feeling that the country is strange in character and then there's a sort of pull in britain on the part of mainstream parties to even talking about these issues effectively and that does tend to create a space to be for the right to come in and talk about identity and in countries

where there are populist parties such as in france and to a certain extent and so it's london and germany and sweden and. they they are able to actually. legitimately put on the agenda issues about culture and assimilation and integration which are not being dealt with adequately outside but the trouble is that incidents such as the one in toulouse ten through three to the idea that that the threat to europe is one of islamization now is lionized race right on that point one point we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the problem of national identity in the west state with our. taking. you to.

well. it's not all stunning games as barcelona host the biggest gathering of the year in this digitized world stage connections like never before and a whole host of new services from some of your living is now a quick call right away. but don't get lost in the crowd with one russian bloc that proves all the stereotypes wrong technology companies here aren't. covered. the to. say.

well michael scott i'm you know your mind you were talking about the far right politics in your. gut and you can see the subtle. ok cannot go back even stopping and i don't extrapolate from what roger said earlier in the program i mean since the two thousand and eight we've had this financial crisis in europe is big for me experiencing enormous austerity in some member countries of the european union and a lot of people would claim that parties like yours and i'm saying some people might claim and i want you to answer is that you've been you've been able to take advantage of the financial crisis and economic woes and how europe is changing demographically you go after the identity issue and extrapolate from that the immigration issue is that a fair thing to say because is there are certain problems that everyone is experiencing and you're looking forward to for lack of a better word scapegoat issue. i don't agree at all if you look. from

two thousand to two thousand and ten. you know the economy was going good there was no financial crisis and during this period just like ours for instance the danish people's parties and others were constantly growing i don't think we need a financial crisis to grow what we say is rooted in the reality that common people live in an experience every day so we don't need a financial crisis we just need we're telling the truth and we thought it was happening in our society that no one else is that's why we are growing and to come back to identity parts i mean when you talk about this i'm sation islam immigration violence and suicide bombings and that kind is one part of it and that's bad enough as the friends example recently goes to show but identity issue changes in society where people don't feel home in their own city or country anymore it's a very very big problem that they certainly discuss they will have an example from

sweden or third largest city that swedes are moving out of the city amman and when they see them and ask them why are you moving out they said because we don't feel home city anymore and this is a problem that's away from violence but it's still a huge problem for us we don't feel home in our own country and we are addressing these problems ok mohammed you think do you think that the because i mean ok we can take in every year you want but when it irrefutable that there is a movement to the right in europe politically ok and i think it's nicely correlated with the financial crisis of two thousand and eight ok i would agree to the rather transfer two thousand a to the present irrefutable ok are the right wing parties taking too much advantage of this because you know i look at the austerity things and i see elites not fixing problems for everybody not just for certain people and this gives an opening as roger pointed out a window of opportunity to kind of change the subject and demonized in and create tension in society that is not necessary because it's not dealing with the real

problems that everyone is facing and it's almost always just the economy. well i think if you look at what kate was saying about. identity and the third swedish city well wouldn't it be better if the swedes rather than moving now to a city actually stayed with the muslim community would we do minority communities to build a cohesive society identity would expose ways it's not just responsibility to minority communities to integrate themselves is a responsibility of those communities to do that as well and what is very dangerous across europe now is that there is this this new obsession by the far right including bike people i can't who want to demonize and attack islam and everything it stands for us so if it's not just attacking the headscarf it's attacking our way of life it's talking a lot of needs and these a very dangerous times for european muslims what we must also commit to is that yes we reject violence but we also commit to having

a healthy debate on these issues and it's going to be done on facts not on fiction and not on preconceived prejudice or sometimes we hear from the from the far right across europe ok can jump in reply i think it's god i think it's bordering rude to tell swedish people who ended up in the ghettos that the other politicians are created to tell them to stay with you to make a generous residual jen was really. going to use them for him they shouldn't we are neighbors will see in that area they don't want to live i'm ok mohammed you are right i think i can't can't can't i think i thing is politically rude and discriminatory an offensive that you come on international television you make general sweeping statements about my faith in my community and not expect a reaction you need to get your facts straight you need to step away from your prejudice i'm afraid so i was going to ask you a little. nervous and currently not very nice here but to go to roger in oxford good i look like can i just say that my perspective on all this is very different

because i don't represent a party nor of a. community but i'm just an academic trying to handle these complicated issues and i think there's a rather try to. keep going no no no no i just i do not represent thank you who started it who started i don't know if the joke is about it but i'd really like to say that there's something being lost now work out having what they call inferential dialogue of a test because i haven't heard kent demonize anybody and i fear and i think it's very dangerous to start living out i mean stereotypes are great grave danger here nella can we just take a moment out here to make a couple of distinctions there is a radical distinction between an extreme right wing neo nazi terroristic violent hitler worshipping white supremacist far right and populist politicians are so loosely called who have grave misgivings about the degree to which

a national community can absorb. estimate minorities especially ethnic minority is from a very different religion and culture and how that second group are not to be conflated with me or not says they are and they are raising the legitimate concerns about about the how you run a multicultural society and similarly on the only on the far right and can't is not part of the far right there is a very grave danger of confusing islam with islam is a noun islamism is indeed an integral part of islam it does use fundamentalist references to aspects of islam scripturally to justify its hatred and war against the west but it is an extraordinarily small minority faction within islam in the in europe that is drawn towards this so i just think we've got to sort of really make use our responsibility as part of the elites of society as elite because we're

articulate and we have the time and luxury to study these things too actually. be a voice of sanity and moderation here there are genuine issues about identity in europe but it doesn't help if we start making big confusions like the defense league does for example in britain between islam and islamism and then talk about the islamization of society not all muslims or how it would be. genuine i mean if a landing calls us in i'm god all of us have to tell you about this but we're not politicians well i guess can't you are mate and it gets and acquires a sense here but i mean politicians do take advantage of these things you know how many let me go to you first because i think that rogers was very articulate about the situation on the ground go ahead mom it. i look i'm not i'm not saying. kent is a nazi put i'm saying that when you make sweeping statements against the muslim faith oh i know i'm insane i've never said i you know i think if you if you think

that i really knew i'm just judging you based to what you've said initial. i don't really these are the same people who fall in the same right wing ideology which is around demonizing people of faith and particularly muslims so if it's not allowed me it's a headscarf recently carved its density and we want to live in europe this is our home we were born in this continent we committed to protecting this continent is going to be a two way street it can't just be one way traffic and i think yes we've got issues to deal with yes there are serious questions about integration there are serious questions about immigration the impact it has on why does society but it's going to be done in an environment of calmness and based on every you know ok so i'm going to have let me jump in here in times politician to begin to demonizing community which i think is wrong ok did i think go to you and i'd like to broaden this out a little bit here because i think sometimes we get very micro and i really appreciate the contribution roger's made to broaden the discussion as well but it's

really the european union that is feeling as well is less and less democratic through time and people do not feel that they're part of that process anymore and i think that makes people fall back on very particular identities because being the european union is run by a small group of elites and now that we're going to get in a lot of cause he says that. his best friend but at the same time he's talking about protectionism and then the whole european project or whatever it means to be european which probably means less and less through time because of the way it's dysfunctional you know this is why people fall back on very specific identities and i'm not just talking about you know the french or the swedes when i'm talking about how people from different faiths feel in different countries. well you know there. is a problem in itself and we're opposed to opinion in the way it's functioning today no doubt but the identities in europe is not dependent on the opinion and you know

part of the why the european doesn't work is because we have very strong national defense this to begin with and when you talk about islamisation in this context it's not i'm not saying that every muslim in europe this is part of a huge conspiracy to take over europe but europe is being islamist just from the fact that muslims and whatnot that have their culture wants to live in accordance with their culture and their religion that's how our society is going to islamist of itself and i mean i i mean i understand mr amir and i think it's very important i will usually. only i generally we end the program for some time to say something then go to my heart here i mean really at the end of last year there was a it was a demographic research that came out that by two thousand and fifty will be the equal number of jews and muslims in europe so talking about the vision of europe is a bit farfetched if you're looking at numbers mohamed go ahead. and you know i mean

essentially cain is not demonizing the muslim community but if you listen some of the statements he's made in in this thirty minutes suggest that he's got an issue with the muslim community must improve like he said vast majority of muslims i live with them across the course here in the united kingdom they lied by the law in this land they are happy to live in a christian majority country they have to follow the rule of law and yes the rule of law in this country and across europe and i was right for is to practice our faith according to our own wishes and that's freedom that's a liberal democracy something which looked seems to be immune according to kant from sweden. all right roger i'm going to live with i'm going to give roger the last word twenty seconds go ahead well last word i think we have to remember that liberal democracy was a very long painful procrustes roots good process grew out of a europe which was ripping itself apart in sectarian wars between different parts of christianity and now we have to have a chance to actually make it

a genuinely face multicultural society but we've got to really address every major is positive note roger thank you very much and let's remember the victims not to lose ok many thanks and i guess it in stockholm oxford and in leeds and thanks to our viewers for watching us here i see you next time and remember trust i. just. can't. stand.

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