it is the seventh. time for the arts he has. faced a continued crackdown as government forces keep the pressure on peaceful protesters a feeling for democracy but the violence goes largely unreported worldwide while the regime claims it's carrying out reforms. european security is a myth that must become reality the star of russian president dmitry medvedev speaking in moscow also warned that nato should not live in the past the russian

leader said to the threat of foreign military intervention. in a public opinion must come to an. american soldier accused of a shooting massacre of afghan civilians is to face seventeen counts of murder in america the taliban. saying it has no faith in the u.s. justice system some say the trial in the states won't alter the negative opinion that most afghans have. but for now in the wake of the shootings in recent days. of globalization the hot tempered issue of cultural integration crosstalk. you can. start. to.

flow and welcome the crosstalk i'm peter lavelle tragedy fear and a lot of politics the massacre in toulouse france again highlights the lack of consensus in europe and the western world when it comes to national identity and the impact of globalization in election year there's a lot of talk about controlling immigration but is the essence of western maternity the real problem. to take. to cross not the issue of violence and globalization i'm joined by kent and corrupt in stockholm he's a member of the sweden democrats party and a member of the swedish parliament and oxford we go to roger griffin he is a professor and academic political theorist at oxford brookes university and in leeds we have mohammed shafique he is the chief executive and founding member of the ramadan foundation all right gentlemen this is crosstalk that means you can jump in anytime you want roger i'd like to go to you first as i pointed out in the

introduction this is an election year and we have seen elections all through europe since the financial crisis of two thousand and eight we've seen a significant drift to what i would call what most people would call the right ok and i must say that mr is not a cosy campaigning for reelection as pandered to the right trying to capture madame le pen's constituency and then we have this horrific incident massacre and to lose what's the connection if any in your mind. well the connection between the massacre as you call it. and the cozy is. a perceptible shift to the right i would say a nonexistent the fact is that the it remains to be seen how that terrible set of events in toulouse will impact on the election it could actually cut two ways it could actually. give a great curse to ords a moderate moderation note if you follow through the impact of the brave. last july

they did not cause a great right wing backlash annoyer on the contrary there was a great show of solidarity with i think minority is and i've interviewed people in in oslo since that incident and they feel more safe now asked though the guy who i talked to had his bags packed to leave immediately after the shootings but he now feels that he and his family i'm also curious and also them before on the other hand. there might be a small minority in france who somehow feel but. the fact that this was carried out not by a right winger but by somebody who claims and i say claims to have received instructions from islamism would actually give a push to the right so. it's it's too early to say at present it could cut both ways ok mohamed in leave madame le pen say she's completely vindicated in her

policies on immigration and the french identity project how do you feel about that she's been vindicated she claims. well i think it's very dangerous for marine le pen to jump on this bandwagon of pima nineteen muslims and immigrants what we've got to be very clear is that as france consists. in toulouse to give court to deal with this in a responsible way and it's up to politicians in particularly presidents to cause the a process alone to behave responsibly to tone down the rhetoric and to not demonizing the whole community and faith system i roger is right this person who's carried out this terrible terrible crime killing muslim christian soldiers and those beautiful children the jewish school only a few days ago had one mission and that was to. divide french society and we should not succeed in that. so cozy and others on the

far right i've got to be very careful in the rhetoric that they use and i you know today president sarkozy give a speech which is very balanced and very thick you know it beautifully has been mum it is very interesting it was louise very very now and today ok but during the campaign it has been very balanced ok hasn't really reminded of my party to i'm sorry go ahead of wishful thinking on my part so you can set wishful thinking on my part presence of course he was very balanced he was very statesman like today i really picked up on that point he said that he shouldn't hold the muslim faith or the muslim community responsible for the actions of one minus and i think that's a very welcome i hope that he carries on into the election campaign but his record speaks for itself he's somebody who jumps at the chance to demonize the muslim community and attack immigrants and i think him. come from the same side of the argument ok i can't even go to you and start from this is very interesting because it wasn't from what we would call a right wing fanatic like we saw in norway this is

a person that would presumably was influenced by islamic ideas possibly al qaeda what does this tell you about europe's immigration policy. well you know this is not the first time muslim attack has happened and it's interesting to see the difference you know when the brave massacre happened no one you know had any any problems with trying to create what he did with the movements in the car are critical to the current immigration policies no one everyone jumped on the wagon but now when there's a muslim it's something that everyone says it's just a lone gunman even though bray week in fact was the lone gunman this is apparent that we've seen in europe many times before in america and all around the world is happening every day and it's obviously has something to do with immigration levels and policies in europe for the last forty years and we've created a situation this is not a divide that someone is trying to create

a theocracy or le pen is trying to create in france is the ride it's already existing there has been growing for a very long time now roger to try to respond to that a double standard. i would like to take it on a slightly different tack of mine i mean i think it really does come down to the way journalists and political elites frame was happened i think there's a great opportunity now for the for both responsible liberal minded politicians and faith leaders to rise to point out the radical distinction between interesting you just used in your in your question you use the word islamic instead of islam is there is a big divide or profound this between moderate islam and islamism and there is an opportunity created by also incidents for people to get think more clearly about the distinction between islam and islamism and actually celebrate the

the ok ok marjorie go ahead i just to respond we're just going to pick up two points under point is that you know the labels are not very clear here lately it's clear been very. these are people who are carrying out such evil acts they don't represent my faith. in the same way but he. does not represent the christian faith he had christian ideas we don't see christian terrorist christian extremists mentioned across the across the community like a muslim it seems to be a man who seems to be a muslim to the headlines in the newspapers and the commentators and you politician fray are m.p. for him from stockholm there is indicating the there seems to be this preconceived prejudice towards immigrants and i think what we've got to focus on is a positive contribution immigrants to make a pretty british and also utopian society and we should celebrate that we should be bringing people together not pulling people apart ok can't you want to jump in

there go ahead. yeah the comparison is false i mean if you look at brady he said it was christian but then he phrased the nordic ancient gods he said he was against nazis and what he was in agreement of sixty percent of nazi ideology is against islam but you want to research islamic caliphate in the middle east to help the new cities i mean this guy was all over the place he was a lot of mammon but if you look at islam islam that's the word the west came up with to distinguish it from islam but if you look at one of the most influential islamic scholars today. he said he is something moderate islam and even even muslim scholars in sweden says that he represents moderate islam now if. only see slummy viewpoint i think that's quite dangerous i think you know i'm not gonna take lectures from somebody apparently set up a little versity that exist within the muslim community what we've got to be very

careful in this debate is the generalization there is been carried out by vile friend. in stockholm we recognise we accept as a muslim community we've got an additional responsibility because these people come from our community they're decent people who are brainwashed and these people who carry out these evil acts and we've got to confront their nationals happy you know you can't do that at the same time as listening to politicians jumping on is paranoid and trying to troll score cheap political points as kent is doing from stockholm roger frank you know i wish there were more people like you but if you look at surveys made from england this is a big big part of the muslim community there are ruthless korea laws that even though as you violence i want to insult islam i think you know very strange for you . it's very difficult to make general statements like that are not back here by evidence a vast majority of british muslims are passionate about living in this country we're passionate europeans. by the law understand we do whatever we can to protect

this country. you have this your own agenda you seem to have your own issues i think you need to go away in a corner and further until you can even add least in great britain on the first opinion polls published in great britain at universities among muslim population in general this is an idea if you take into account the region and gentlemen i'm going to roger i'd like to go to roger in oxford roger do you think that it is in the wake of this tragedy is that these are going to be the focus on immigration or what kind of society each member of the european union it's all about the you know british or french or whatever i mean what i'm saying is it is the identity project or is it immigration because it can be a binary. these are complicated issues i mean every country is different and every city in each country is different and it's very difficult to generalize what worries me is that not mainstream liberal commentators have not addressed adequately really serious issues about identity and there are issues about cultural

identity and feeling that the country is strange in character and then there's a sort of to boo in britain on the part of mainstream parties to even talking about these issues effectively and that does tend to create a space for the for the right to come in and talk about identity and in countries where there are populist parties such as in france and to a certain extent in switzerland and in germany and in sweden and that they they are able to actually. legitimately put on the agenda issues about culture and the simulation and integration which are not being dealt with adequately outside but the trouble is that incidents such as the one in toulouse tend to feed to the idea that that the threat to europe is one of islamisation now islam ira strain on that point one point we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the problem of national identity into what state are.

ok to start. with the end of the four war and the growing away of the soviet union many people thought the direction specific the risk is not zero that something might be going off by mistake. nuclear weapons on hair trigger alert. civilians using a as a threat or as an echo of it but you know if you keep spinning a trillion dollar. as a year on weapons adventure you're going to blow everybody up you you know people are dying from these weapons but until we actually see it people don't wake up with no food or weapons or build the new. that represents all of the fire power of the

second world war and this second sound is the equivalence of fire power the world's nuclear arsenal today. take a. listen to. well

the microcosm i'm getting to imagine we're talking about far right politics in your . lives they can. live. ok can i go back to you and start i mean i took extrapolate from from what roger said earlier in the program i mean since the two thousand and eight we've had just financial crisis in europe has makes me experience enormous austerity in some member countries of the european union and a lot of people would claim that parties like yours and i'm saying some people might claim and i want you to answer is that you've been you've been able to take advantage of the financial crisis and economic woes and how europe is changing demographically to go after the identity issue and extrapolate from that the immigration issue is that a fair thing to say because is there a certain problems that everyone's experiencing and you're looking forward to for lack of a better word a scapegoat issue. i don't agree at all if you look. from two thousand to two thousand and ten. we had you know the economy was going good there was no financial

crisis and during this period parties like ours for instance the danish people's party and others were constantly growing i don't think we need a financial crisis to go what we say is rooted in the reality that common people live in and experience every day so we don't need a financial crisis we just need we're telling the truth telling what's happening in our society that no one else is that's why we are growing and to come back to identity cards i mean when you talk about islamisation islam immigration violence and suicide bombings and that crime is one part of it and that's bad enough as the friends example recently goes to show but identity issue one of the changes in society where people don't feel home in their own city or country anymore it's a very very big problem that they certainly discuss they will have an example from sweden or third largest city that swedes are moving out of the city and when they see them on asking why are you moving out they said because we don't feel home city

anymore and this is a problem that's away from violence but it's still a huge problem we're sweet on pillowman own country and we are addressing these problems ok mohammed do you think do you think that the because i mean ok we can take it every year you want but when it's irrefutable that there is a movement to the right in europe politically ok and i think it's nicely correlated with the financial crisis of two thousand and eight ok i would agree that there are other trends but two thousand and eight of the present irrefutable ok are the right wing parties taking too much advantage of this because you know i look at the austerity things and i see elites not fixing problems for everybody much is for certain people and this gives an opening as roger pointed out a window of opportunity to kind of change the subject and demonize in and create tension in society that is not necessary because it's not dealing with the real problems that everyone is facing and it's almost always just the economy. well i think if you look at what kate was saying about. identity and the third swedish

city well wouldn't it be better if the swedes rather than the city actually stayed there and would with the muslim community work with the minority communities to build a cohesive society identity will explore ways it's not just responsibilities of minority communities to integrate themselves is the responsibility of those communities to do that as well and what is very dangerous across europe now is that there's this this near obsession by the far right including viking people like hands who want to demonize and attack islam and everything it stands for is so if it's not just a talking head scarf it's attacking our way of life it's talking whole our needs and these are very dangerous times for european muslims what we must also commit to is that yes we reject violence but we also commit to having a healthy debate on these issues and it's going to be done on facts not on fiction and not on preconceived prejudice or sometimes we hear from the from the far right

across europe ok can jump in reply i think it's border i think it's bordering rude to tell swedish people who has ended up in the ghettos that other politicians are created to tell them to stay with you to make a generous residual generous freedom is going to use them for him they shouldn't be highly emotional scene to lean upon in that area they don't want to live in ok muhammad you are right i can't can't can't i think i think is plainly rude and discriminatory and offensive that you come on international television you make general sweeping statements about my faith in my community and not expect a reactor you know you need to go in for a street you need to step away from your prejudice the muslims are not really. not very nice here like the roger in oxford going over look like and i just say that my perspective on all this is very different because i don't represent a party nor of a. community funds are some academic trying to handle these complicated issues and

i think there's a rather try to. keep going i don't know though i just i just represent i think you started to study i know the joke is quite a bit but i'd really like to say that there's something being lost now work out in what they call in french a dialogue of the deaf because i haven't heard can't demonize anybody and i think and i think that it's very dangerous to start living out i mean stereotypes of the great grave danger here now let me just take a moment out here to make a couple of distinctions there is a radical distinction between an extreme right wing nero nancy terroristic violent hitler worshipping white supremacist far right and populist politicians as third loosely called who have grave misgivings about the degree to which a national community can absorb. ethnic minorities especially minorities from a very different religion and culture now that second group are not to be conflated

with me on answers they are and they are raising legitimate concerns about about how you run a multicultural society and similarly on that only on the far right and i can see is not part of the far right there is a very grave danger of confusing islam with islam islam now islamism is in an integral part of islam and it does use fundamentalist references to aspects of islam scripturally to justify its hate through and war against the west but it is an extraordinarily small minority faction within islam in the in europe that is drawn towards this so i just think we've got to sort of really might use our responsibility as part of the elite of societies elite because we're articulate and we have the time and luxury to study these things too actually. be a voice of sanity and moderation here there are genuine issues about identity in

europe but it doesn't help if we start making big confusions like the english defense league for example in britain between islam and islamism and then talk about the islamization of society not all muslims want our help it's only to be. gentle gentle and i mean let's face it and in all those us and i'm glad all of us have the time i talk about this but we're not politicians well i just can't you are maybe that it's an acquired a sense here but i mean politicians do take advantage of these things here but i mean let me go to you first because i think that rogers was very articulate about the situation on the ground go ahead moment. i look i'm not i'm not saying. kate is and you're not seen but i'm saying that when you make sweeping statements against the muslim faith i know i'm going to say died never said i you know i think if you if you think that i really mean you i'm just judging you place to what you've said in the shore. these are the same people who follow the same right wing ideology

which is around demonizing people of faith in particular muslims or if it's not it's a headscarf recently car it's the density we want to live in new york this is our home we were born in this continent we committed to protecting this continent is going to be a two way street you can't just be one way traffic and i think yes we've got issues to deal with yes there are serious questions about integration there are serious questions about immigration but how does one wider society but it's going to be done in an environment of calmness i know based on every you know ok so i'm going to have let me jump in here in times of politicians going to demonizing community which i think is wrong ok did i did go to you and i to broaden this out a little bit here because i think sometimes we get very micro and i really appreciate the contribution rogers made and broadening the discussion as well but it's really the european union that is feeling as well it is less and less democratic through time and people do not feel that they are part of that process

anymore and i think that makes people far back and very particular identities because being the european union is run by a small group of leads and now that we're going to get you know because he says that merkel is her his best friend but at the same time he's talking about protectionism and you know and then the whole european project or whatever it means to be european which probably means less and less through time because of the way it's dysfunctional you know this is why people fall back on very specific identities and i'm not just talking about you know the french or the swedes when i'm talking about how people from different faiths spiel in different countries. go ahead. you know the. game. itself and we're opposed to your opinion in the way it's functioning today no doubt but the identity is in europe is not dependent on the opinion and you know part of the why the opinion doesn't work it's because we have very strong national defense this to begin with and when you talk about islamisation in this context it's not

i'm not saying that every muslim in europe this is part of a huge conspiracy to take over europe but europe is being islamist just from the fact that muslims and arabs and whatnot but have their culture wants to live in accordance with their culture and their religion that's how our society is going islamist. i mean i understand this term here and i think it's very important i want you to listen. even if he had only one gentleman we in the program plus i'm going to say something then go to my heart here i mean really at the end of last year there was a it was a demographic research that came out that the by two thousand and fifty will be the equal number of jews and muslims in europe so talking about the nation of europe is a bit farfetched if you're looking at numbers mohamed go ahead. i mean essentially cain is not demonizing the muslim community please listen to some of the statements he's made in in his thirty minutes suggest that he's going to an

issue with the muslim community must improve like he said vast majority of muslims i live with them across the course here in the united kingdom they live by the law in this land they're happy to live in a christian majority country they have to follow the rule of law and yes the rule of law in this country and across europe and i was a right for is to practice our faith according to our own wishes and that's freedom that's liberal democracy something which seems to be immune according to kant from sweden. all right roger i'm going to allow with i'm going to give roger the last word twenty seconds go ahead well last word i think we have to remember that liberal democracy was a very long painful procrustes roots group process and grew out of a europe which was ripping itself apart in sectarian wars for trying different parts of christianity and now we have a chance try to make it a genuinely multi-faith multi-cultural society but we've got to really address every maitreya's positive note roger thank you very much and let's remember the

victims are to lose ok many thanks to my guest today in stockholm oxford and in leeds and thanks to our viewers for watching us here i see you next time and remember crossfire. can still.

it.