to. make your statements. spread the word. keep my little street. take the streets brick by click. with the twenty four hours a day are to live here must go top stories now this past the hour activists in bahrain face a continued crackdown as government forces keep up the pressure on peaceful protesters appealing for democracy but the parlance goes largely unreported world wide on the iranian regime claims its carrying out reforms. european atlantic security is a myth but must become reality star words of russian president dmitri medvedev speaking in moscow who also warned that nato should not live in the past the russian leader said too that threats of foreign military intervention and

manipulation of public opinion must then. also reporting the american soldier accused of the shooting massacre of afghan civilians is to face seventeen counts of murder in the u.s. and the taliban vows revenge saying it has no faith in american justice some experts say that any trial in the u.s. will not alter the negative opinion most afghans have america. will be back with more of those stories in half an hour from now in the meantime in the way called the shootings in toulouse peter bell and his guests discuss cultural integration in a globalized world crossed always next here on alt. it . started. to. blow in the welcome across dot com people about tragedy fear and a lot of politics the massacre in toulouse france again highlights the lack of

consensus in europe and the western world when it comes to national identity and the impact of globalization in election year there's a lot of talk about controlling immigration but is the essence of western maternity the real problem. you can. live. to cross not the issue of violence and globalization i'm joined by kant and karate in stockholm he's a member of the sweden democrats party and a member of the swedish parliament and oxford we go to roger griffin he is a professor and academic political theorist at oxford brookes university and in leeds we have mohammed shafique he is the chief executive and founding member of the ramadan foundation all right gentlemen this is crosstalk that means you can jump in anytime you want roger i'd like to go to you first as i pointed out in the introduction this is an election year and we have seen elections all through europe since the financial crisis of two thousand and eight we've seen

a significant drift to what i would call what most people would call the right ok and i must say that mr is not a cause he campaigning for reelection as pandered to the right's trying to capture madame le pen's constituency and then we have this her wrist think incident massacre into lose what's the connection if any in your mind. well the connection between the massacre as you call it. is. perceptible shift to the right i would say a non-existent the fact is that the it remains to be seen how. it's terrible so to go events in two moves will impact on the election it could actually cut two ways it could actually. give a great purse to ords a moderate moderation know if you follow through the impact of the brave shootings last july they did not cause a great right wing backlash in norway on the contrary there was

a great show of solidarity with ethnic minorities and i've interviewed people in low since that incident and they feel more safe now asked though the guy who i talked to had his bags packed to leave immediately after the shootings but he now feels that he and his family are more secure and also than before on the other hand . there might be a small minority in france who somehow feel but. the fact that this was carried out not by a right winger but by somebody who claims and i say claims to have received instructions from islamism would actually give a push to to the right so. it's it's too early to say across and it could cut both ways ok mohammed in leeds. say she's completely vindicated in her policies on immigration and the french identity project how do you feel about that she's been vindicated she claims. well i think it's very dangerous for marine le pen to jump

on this bandwagon of demonizing muslims and immigrants what we've got to be very clear is that as france consider the massacre in toulouse we give cause to deal with this in a responsible way and it's up to politicians in particularly presidents to cause you francis alone to behave responsibly to tone down the rhetoric and to not demonize and whole community and faith system roger is right this person who's carried out this terrible terrible crime killing muslim christian soldiers and those beautiful children the jewish school only a few days ago had one mission and that was to. divide french society and we should not succeed in that i'm the light. pen. so cosy and others on the far right i've got to be very careful in the wreckage that they use and i you know

today president sarkozy give a speech which was very balanced and very tricky. bit is very interesting it was lou is the reason now and today ok but during the campaign it has been very balanced ok wasn't nearly as planned which reminds me of my part peter i'm sorry go ahead but wishful thinking on my part so you can see wishful thinking on my part prez's of course he was very balanced he was very statesman like today i really picked up on the point he said that he shouldn't hold all the muslim faith or the muslim community responsible for the actions of one minus i think that's very welcome i hope that he carries this on into the election campaign but these record speaks for itself he's somebody who he jumps at the chance to demonize the muslim community and attack immigrants i think him and come from the same side of the argument ok can get angry and start from this is very interesting because it wasn't from what we would call a right wing fanatic like we saw in norway this is a person that would presumably was influenced by islamic ideas or possibly

al-qaeda what does this tell you about europe's immigration policy. well you know this is not the first time muslim attack has happened and it's interesting to see the difference you know when the bravest massacre happened no one had any any problems with trying to equate what he did with the movements in the critical to the current immigration policies no one everyone jumped on the wagon but now when there's a muslim it's something that no one says it's just a lone gunman even though gray week in fact was the lone gunman this is apparent that we've seen in europe many times before in america and all around the world is happening every day and it's obviously has something to do with immigration levels and policies in europe for the last forty years. create a situation this is not a divide that someone is trying to create or sarkozy or le pen is trying to create in france it's the vide it's already existing their class has been growing for

a very long time now roger to be trying to respond to that a double standard. so i'd like to take it on a slightly different track and i mean i think it really does come down to the way journalists and political elites frame what's happened and i think there's a great opportunity now for the for both responsible liberal minded politicians and faith leaders to rise to point out the radical distinction between interesting you just used in your question you use the word islamic instead of islam is there is a deep divide or profound. between moderate and islamism and there is an opportunity created by also incidents for people to get think more clearly about the distinction between islam and islamism and actually celebrate the the ok ok mythology have a go ahead i just to respond i just going to pick up two points under point is

about you know the labels are not very clear here let us be clear very. these are people who are carrying out such evil acts they don't represent my faith. in the same way but he. does not represent the christian faith you know he had christian ideas we can see christian terrorist christian extremists mention across the across the media alike and already seems to be a man who seems to be a muslim to do the headlines and his papers are commentators and you politician free our m.p. friend from stockholm there is indicating that there seems to be this preconceived prejudice towards immigrants and i think what we've got to focus on is a positive contribution immigrants to make a pretty british and also european society and we should celebrate that we should be bringing people together not putting people a card ok camp you want to jump in there go ahead. yeah the comparison is false i mean if you look at gray because he was christian but then he phrased the nordic

ancient gods he said he was against nazis and what he was in agreement of sixty percent of geology is against islam but he wanted to research the islamic caliphate in the middle east to help the new cities and this guy was all over the place he was a low man man but if you look at islam islam that's that's the word that the west came up with to distinguish it from islam but if you look at one of the most influential islamic scholars today. he said he is something more of islam and even even the muslim scholars in sweden says that he represents moderate islam now if cloud ari are not the. only see the street view point i think that's quite dangerous i think you know i'm not going to take lectures from somebody about the essential political versity that exist within the muslim community what we've got to be very careful in this debate is the generalization

there is been carried out by vile friend. in stockholm we recognize we accept as a muslim community we've got an additional responsibility because these people come from our community they these are people who are brainwashed these people who carry out these evil acts and we've got to from the national sapien you know you can't do that at the same time as listening to politicians jumping on this bandwagon and trying to score cheap political points as kent is doing from stockholm roger fighting lord i wish there were more people like you but if you look at surveys made from england this is a big big part of the muslim community because sharia laws. cannot go on if you violence around insulting islam i think you know very strange for you. is very did you feel came to make general statements like that are not by evidence the vast majority of british muslims are passionate about living in this country with passionate europeans and me. by the law in this time now we do whatever we can to protect this country. you have this is your own agenda you seem to have your own

issues i think you need to go away in a corner and. until you can call the second event in great britain on the first opinion polls publish in great britain at universities in my muslim population in general this is going to be on the ninety nine and ten and i don't know roger i'd like to go to roger in oxford roger do you think that is in the wake of this tragedy is that if you're going to be the focus on immigration or what kind of society each member of the european union is all about being you know british or french or whatever i mean when i'm saying is it is the identity project or is it immigration because they can be a binary. all these are complicated issues i mean every country is different and every city in each country is different and it's failed of all but generalize what worries me is that most mainstream liberal parties have not addressed adequately really serious issues about identity and there are issues about cultural identity and feeling that the country is strange in character and then there's a sort of computer in britain on the part of mainstream parties to even talking

about these issues effectively and that does tend to create a space for the for the right to come in and talk about identity and in countries where there are populist passes such as in france and. france and so it's london and germany and sweden that you they are able to actually. legitimately put on the agenda issues about culture and the simulation and integration which are not being dealt with adequately outside but the trouble is that incidents such as the one in toulouse tend to feed to the idea that that the threat to europe is one of islamization now islamize race around that point well one point we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the problem of national identity in the us state of the art.

if you. feel. you. to. answer. with the end of the core war and the going away of the soviet union many people thought that nuclear weapons disappear was the risk is not zero that something might be going off by mistake special it sounds a little nuclear weapons on hair trigger alert. levels of the going to sleep

a day as it's written all it says and i get it but you know if you keep spending a trillion dollars a year on weapons adventure you're going to blow everybody up you can't you know people are dying from these weapons but until we actually see if people don't wake up to nuclear weapons or build the new. league that represents all of the firepower of the second world war this. is the equivalence of fire power of the world's nuclear arsenal today. oh. say. the lead story. elected into the in. the process i'm curious about your mind you were talking about the far right politics in your. elliptical game

sled. ok cat i'd like to go back to you in stock and i took extrapolate from from what roger said earlier in the program i mean since the two thousand and eight we've had this financial crisis in europe is vic's me experiencing enormous austerity in some member countries of the european union and a lot of people would claim that parties like yours and i'm saying some people might claim and i want you to answer is that you've been you've been able to take advantage of the financial crisis and economic woes and how europe is changing demographically to go after the identity issue and extrapolate from that the immigration issue is that a fair thing to say because is there a certain problems that everyone's experiencing and you're looking forward to for lack of a better word a scapegoat issue. i don't agree at all if you look at. from two thousand to two thousand and ten. you know the economy was going good there was no financial crisis and during this period parties like ours for instance the danish people's parties

and others were constantly growing i don't think we need a financial crisis to grow what we say is rooted in the reality that common people live in and experience every day so we don't need a financial crisis we just need telling the truth telling what's happening in our society that no one else is and that's why we are growing and to convert your identity parts i mean when you talk about islamisation islam immigration violence and suicide bombings and that crime is one part of it and that's bad enough as france example recently goes to show but identity issue of the changes in society where people don't feel home in their own city or country anymore it's a very very big problem that is certainly discussed i have an example from in sweden a city that swedes are moving out of the city and when the city man asked them why are you moving out they said because we don't feel home city anymore and this is a problem that's away from violence but it's still

a huge problem worse we don't feel in our own country and we are addressing these problems ok mohammed do you think do you think that the because i mean ok we can take it every year you want but when it's refutable that there is a movement to the right in europe politically ok and i think it's out nicely correlated with the financial crisis of two thousand and eight ok i would agree to the rather transfer two thousand and eight to the present it's irrefutable ok are the right wing parties taking too much advantage of this because you know i look at the austerity things and i see elites not fixing problems for everybody not just for certain people and this gives an opening as roger pointed out a window of opportunity to kind of change the subject and demonize in and create tension in society that is not necessary because it's not dealing with the real problems that everyone is facing and it's almost always just the economy. well i think if you look at what kate was saying about. identity in the third swedish city well wouldn't it be better if the swedes rather the city actually stayed with the

muslim community worked with the minority communities to build a cohesive society identity will expose ways it's not just responsibilities of minority communities to integrate themselves there's a responsibility to host communities to do that as well and what is very dangerous across europe now is that there is this this new obsession by the far right including bike people i can't who want to demonize and attack islam and everything it stands for is so if it's not just attacking the headscarf it's attacking our way of life it's talking a lot of meat and these are very dangerous times for european muslims what we must also commit to is that yes we reject violence but we also commit to having a healthy debate on these issues and it's going to be done on facts not on fiction and not on preconceived prejudice are sometimes we hear from the from the far right across europe they can jump in reply i think it's border i think is bordering rude

to tell swedish people who ended up in the ghettos that the other politicians are created to tell them to stay with you to make a generous residual generous freedom is the reason clearinghouse you use them for him they shouldn't really regional city. area they don't want to live in. ok mohamed you want to i really can't can't can't i think that i think is bleak and discriminatory and offensive that you come on international television you meet general sweeping statements about my faith in my community i know i expect you need to go for a street you need to step away from your prejudice i have my facts straight i was going to ask you to like engineers or not demonising and i could go to roger in oxford go yeah i yeah look can i just say that my perspective on all this is very different because i don't represent a party nor a faith community i'm just an academic trying to handle these complicated issues some right by doing this they're all going to get keep going i don't know i just i

just wrote to you who started it who started it i know it's a joke it's called but i'd really like to say that there's something being lost now work out having what they call inferential dialogue of death because i haven't heard can't demonize anybody and i think and i think that it's very dangerous to start living out i mean stereotypes are great grave danger here now let me just take a moment out here to make a couple of distinctions there is a radical distinction between an extreme right wing neo nazi terroristic violent hitler worshipping white supremacist far right and populist politicians as loosely called who have grave misgivings about the degree to which the national community saw. estimate minorities especially minorities from a very different religion and culture and second group are not to be conflated with me or not says they are and they are raising legitimate concerns about how you

run a multicultural society and similarly on the on the on the far right and i can't is not part of the far right there is a very grave danger of confusing islam with islam islam now is. has them is an integral part of islam it does use fundamentalist references to aspects of islam scripturally to justify its hate and war against the west but it is an extraordinarily small minority faction within islam in the in europe that is drawn towards this so i just think we've got to sort of really make use our responsibility as part of the elite of society is elite because we're articulate and we have the time and luxury to study these things to actually be a voice of sanity and moderation here there are genuine issues about identity in europe but it doesn't help if we start making big confusions slightly in english

defense league for example in britain between islam and islamism and then talk about the islamization of society not all muslims what are held to a little bit here i don't feel you're a gentleman i mean what i mean by and install is ocean i'm glad all of us have the tone of heart about this but we're not politicians well i guess can't you are mean it gets a sense here but i mean politicians do take advantage of these things here well i mean let me go to you first because i think that rogers was very articulate about the situation on the ground go ahead moment. i look i'm not i'm not saying. kate is a neo nazi but i'm saying that when you make sweeping statements against the muslim faith oh i know i'm insane i've never said i you know i think if you if you think that i mean you i'm just judging you place to what you've said in the shore. really these are the same people who follow the same right wing ideology which is around demonizing people of faith in particularly muslim so if it's not it's

a headscarf it's the only car it's density you know we want to live in europe this is our home we were born in this continent we committed to protecting this continent is going to be a two way street it can't just be one way traffic and i think yes we've got issues to deal with yes there are serious questions about integration there are serious questions about immigration but it has on wider society but it's going to be done in an environment of calmness i know based on every you know ok so i'm going to have let me just in here in times of politicians going to demonizing community which i think is wrong ok ken did i'd like to go to you and i'd like to broaden this out a little bit here because i think sometimes we get very micro and i really appreciate the contribution roger's made to broaden the discussion as well but it's really the european union that is feeling as well it is less and less democratic through time and people do not feel that they are part of that process anymore and i think that makes people far back and very particular identities because being the european

union is run by a small group of the leads and now that we're going to get you know because he says that merkel is her his best friend but at the same time he's talking about protectionism and you know and then the whole european project or whatever it means to be european which probably means less and less through time because of the way it's dysfunctional you know this is why people fall back on very specific identities and i'm not just talking about you know the french or the swedes when i'm talking about how people from different peace deal in different countries. go ahead well you know the. cell phone we're opposed to european union the way it's functioning today no doubt but. it is in europe it's not attendant on the opinion and you know part of the why the opinion doesn't work is because we have very strong national defense this to begin with and when you talk about islamisation in this context it's not i'm not saying that every muslim in europe this is part of

a huge conspiracy to take over europe but europe is being islamicized just from the fact that muslims and whatnot but have their culture wants to live in accordance with their culture and their religion that's how our society is going islam ised right i mean i'm not sure i understand this term here and i think it's prepared i want to be clear this is a case of me even if he had only one generally we end the program plus i'm going to say something then go to my heart here i mean really at the end of last year there was a there was some demographic research that came out that the by two thousand and fifty to be the equal number of jews and muslims in europe so talking about the east motivation of europe is a bit farfetched if you're looking at numbers mohammed go ahead. and you know i mean essentially cain is not demonizing the muslim community policing some of the statements he's made in in this thirty minutes suggestion that he's going to an issue with the muslim community muslim faith like he said vast majority of muslims

i live with them across the across here in the united kingdom blood by the law in this land they are happy to live in a christian majority country they happen to follow the rule of law and yes the rule of law in this country and across europe and i was right for is to practice our faith according to our own wishes and that's we did not sleep walker see something which seems to be immune according to kant from sweden. all right roger i'm going to allow with i'm going to give roger the last word twenty second scott had well last words i think we have to remember that liberal democracy it was a very long painful procrustes process to grow out of a europe which was ripping itself apart in sectarian wars between different parts of christianity and now we have to have a chance to actually make it a genuinely multi-faith multi-cultural society but we've got to really address every major is positive note roger thank you very much and let's remember the victims have to lose ok many thanks to my guest today in stockholm oxford and in leeds and thanks to our viewers for watching us here i see you next time and

remember rostock. can. still. from. them.