charge is a good or bad thing for our culture the bottom line is it happened so it might be worth taking a moment to think about it. all right we're out of time but for more on the stories we cover go to you tube dot com slash r t america or r two dot com slash usa and you can follow me on twitter at christine.

you can. still. think. long and welcome to cross talk on people about tragedy fear and a lot of politics the massacre in toulouse france again highlights the lack of consensus in europe and the western world when it comes to national identity and the impact of globalization in election year there's a lot of talk about controlling immigration but is the essence of western maternity the real problem. you can. still live. across the issue of violence and globalization i'm joined by kant at a rough in stockholm he's a member of the sweden democrats party and a member of the swedish parliament in oxford we go to roger griffin he is

a professor and academic political theorist at oxford brookes university and in leeds we have mohammed shafique he is the chief executive and founding member of the ramadan foundation all right gentlemen this is cross talk to me as you can jump in anytime you want roger i'd like to go to you first as i pointed out in the introduction this is an election year and we have seen elections all through europe since the financial crisis of two thousand and eight we've seen a significant drift to what i would call what most people would call the right ok and i must say that mr is not a cosy campaigning for reelection as pandered to the right trying to capture madame le pen's constituency and then we have this horrific incident massacre in toulouse what's the connection if any in your mind. well the connection between the massacre as you call it to lose those is. perceptible shift to the right i would say a nonexistent the fact is that the it remains to be seen how that terrible set of

events in toulouse will impact on the election it could actually cut two ways you could actually. give a great person who was a moderate moderation note if you follow through the impact of the brave shootings last july they did not cause a great right wing backlash in norway on the contrary there was a great show of solidarity with ethnic minorities and i've interviewed people in low since that incident and they feel more safe now asked though the guy who i talked to had his bags packed to leave immediately after the shootings but he now feels that he and his family are more secure and also them before on the other hand . there might be a small minority in france who somehow feel but. the fact that this was carried out not by a right winger but by somebody who claims and i say claims to have received instructions

from islamism would actually give a push to the right so. it's it's too early to say across and it could cut both ways ok mohammed in leeds made him look and say she's completely vindicated in her policies on immigration and the french identity project how do you feel about that she's been vindicated she claims. well i think it's very dangerous for marine le pen to jump on this plan by kind of demonizing muslims and immigrants what we've got to be very clear is that as france consider the massacre in toulouse to give cause to deal with this in a responsible way and it's up to politicians in particularly presidents a causal process alone to behave responsibly to tone down the rhetoric and to not demonize and whole community and faith system i roger is right this person who's carried out this terrible terrible crime killing muslim christian soldiers and

those beautiful children of the jewish school only a few days ago had one mission and that was to. divide french society and we should not succeed in that and the likes of. pain. and so cosy and others on the far right have got to be very careful in the wreck to use and i you know today president sarkozy give a speech which was very balanced and very thick you know it's really the kind of involvement is very interesting it was really very very now and today ok but during the campaign it has been very balanced ok wasn't nearly as he's planned with very much on my part peter i'm sorry go ahead what wishful thinking on my part so you can say wishful thinking on my part presence of course he was very balanced he was very statesman like today i really picked up on the point he said that he shouldn't hold all the muslim faith or the muslim community responsible for the actions of one minus called i think that's very welcome i hope that he carries this on into the election campaign his record speaks for itself he's somebody who jumps at the

chance to demonize the muslim community and attack immigrants and i think him and come from the same side of the argument ok candy franconian start from this is very interesting because it wasn't from what we would call a right wing fanatic like we saw in norway this is a person that would presumably was influenced by islamic ideas or possibly al-qaeda what does this tell you about europe's immigration policy. well you know this is not the first time muslim attack has happened and it's interesting to see the difference you know when the bravest massacre happened no one you know had any any problems with trying to create what he did with the movements in europe there are critical to the current immigration policies no one ever on jumped on the wagon but now when there's a muslim it's something that everyone says it's just a lone gunman even though bray week in fact was the lone gunman this is apparent

that we've seen in europe many times before in america and all around the world is happening every day and it's obviously has something to do with immigration levels and policies in europe for the last forty years we've created a situation this is not a divide that someone is trying to create a sarkozy or le pen is trying to create in france it's a divide it's already existing their class has been growing for a very long time roger to be trying to respond to that a double standard. i'd like to take it on a slightly different mind i mean i think it really does come down to the way journalists and political elites frame was happened and i think there's a great opportunity now for the for both responsible liberal minded politicians and faith leaders to. to point out the radical distinction between interesting you just used in your in your question you use the word islamic instead of islam is there is a deep divide or profound this between moderate islam and islamism and

there is an opportunity created by all sorts incidents for people to get think more clearly about the distinction between his lie and islamism and actually celebrate the. ok ok mahajan big ahead to respond. to q. points under point is about you know the labels you know very clear here look let's be very. these are people who carried out such evil acts they don't represent my faith. in the same way that the. does not represent the christian faith you know he had christian ideas we don't see christian terrorist christian extremists making across the across the media like the way it seems to be when he seems to be a muslim to the headlines in the newspapers and commentators i knew a politician for our m.p. friend from stockholm there is indicating that there seems to be this preconceived

prejudice towards immigrants and i think what we've got to focus on is a positive contribution immigrants to make a pretty good and also utopian society and we should celebrate that we should be bringing people together not pulling people apart ok can't you want to jump in there go ahead. yeah the comparison is false i mean if you look at break he said it was christian but then he phrased it the nordic ancient gods he said he was against nazis and what he was in agreement of sixty percent in march or geology is against islam but he want to research the islamic caliphate in the middle east to help the new cities i mean this guy was all over the place he was alone but if you look at islam islam that's that's the word that the west came up with to distinguish it from islam but if you look at one of the most influential islamic scholars today. he said that he is something more of islam and even even muslim scholars in sweden

says that he represents moderate islam now if carry on not. only is he a slimy view point i think that's quite dangerous i think you know i'm not political actions from somebody apparently a sexual political versity that exist within the muslim community what we've got to be very careful in this debate in is the generalization there is dream carried out by vile friend. in stockholm we recognize we accept as a muslim community we've got additional responsibility because these people come from our community hey these are people who have brainwashed these people who carry out these evil acts and we've got to confront international is happening you know you can't do that at the same time as listening to politicians jumping on this plan by going trying to score cheap political points as countries doing from stockholm roger frank you know i wish there were more people like you but if you look at surveys made from england there's an a big big part of the muslim community because sharia laws that even though as you

violence i want to insult islam i think you know very strange for you. it's very difficult to make general statements like that are not back yet by evidence a vast majority of british muslims are passion of living in this country where passionate europeans. by the law in this we do whatever we can to protect this country. you have this own you your own agenda you seem to have your own issues i think you need to go in a corner and he will fall into the i'm told. in great britain on the first opinion polls publish in great britain at universities i'm a muslim population in general this is i don't need a penalty on the internet and gentlemen i don't need a rancher and i to go to roger in oxford roger do you think that is in the wake of this tragedy is that if you're going to be the focus on immigration or what kind of society each member of the european union is all about be it you know british or french or whatever i mean when i'm saying is it is the identity project or is it immigration because they can be a binary. all these are complicated issues i mean every country is different and

every city in each country is different and it's very difficult to generalize what worries me is that most mainstream liberal cancers have not addressed adequately really serious issues about identity and there are issues about cultural identity and feeling that the country is strange in character and then there's a sort of to boo in britain on the part of mainstream parties to even talking about these issues affect ability and that does tend to create a space for the for the right to come in and talk about identity and in countries where there are populous part is such as in france and to a certain extent in switzerland and in germany and in sweden and that they take they are able to actually. legitimately put on the agenda issues about culture and assimilation and integration which are not being dealt with adequately outside but the trouble is that incidents such as the one in toulouse tend to feed to the idea

that that the threat to europe is one of islamisation now islam eyes race right on that point and that point we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the problem of national identity in the west state with our. taking the. stand. if you. wealthy british style. sometimes the type of.

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welcome back across town i'm curious about your mind you were talking about the far right politics in your. story. ok can't i'd like to go back to you once thought i mean i took extrapolate from from what roger said earlier in the program i mean since that the two thousand and eight we've had this financial crisis in europe is big for experience a enormous austerity in some member countries of the european union and a lot of people would claim that parties like yours and i'm saying some people might claim and i want you to answer is that you've been you've been able to take advantage of the financial crisis and economic woes and how europe is changing demographically you go after the identity issue and extrapolate from that the immigration issue is that a fair thing to say because is there are certain problems that everyone is experiencing and you're looking forward to for lack of a better word a scapegoat issue. i don't agree at all if you look at it. from two thousand to two

thousand and ten. you know the economy was going good there was no financial crisis and during this period just like ours for instance the danish people's party and others were constantly growing i don't think we need a financial crisis to grow what we say is rooted in the reality the common people live in and experience every day so we don't need a financial crisis we just need we're telling the truth and we're telling what's happening in our society that no one else is and that's why we are growing and to come back to identity parts i mean when you talk about this in the station in islam immigration violence and suicide bombings and that crime is one part of it and that's bad enough as the friends example recently goes to show but identity issue who are the changes in society where people don't feel home in their own city or country anymore it's a very very big problem that is certainly discussed they will have an example from sweden or third largest city that swedes are moving out of the city and when the

city around asked them why they moving out they said because we don't feel home city anymore and this is a problem that's away from violence but it's still a huge problem we're sweet on film in our own country and we are addressing these problems ok mohammed you think do you think that the because i mean ok we can pick it every year you want but when it's irrefutable that there is a movement to the right in europe politically ok and i think it's nicely correlated with the financial crisis of two thousand and eight ok i would agree that there are other trends but two thousand and eight of the present it's irrefutable ok are the right wing parties taking too much advantage of this because you know i look at the austerity things i see elites not fixing problems for everybody much is for certain people and this gives an opening as roger pointed out a window of opportunity to kind of change the subject and demonize in and create tension in society that is not necessary because it's not dealing with the real problems that everyone is facing and it's almost always just the economy. well i

think if you look at what kate was saying about. identity and the third swedish city well good it be better if the swedes rather than moving now to a city actually stayed with the muslim community worked with the minority communities to build a cohesive society identity will expose ways it's not just responsibility to minority communities to integrate themselves there's a responsibility to host communities to do that as well and what is very dangerous across europe now is that there's this this new obsession by the far right including bike people like hands who want to demonize and attack islam and everything it stands for was so if it's not just attacking the headscarf it's attacking our way of life it's tacky halaal meat and these are very dangerous times for european muslims what we most also commit to is that yes we reject violence but we also commit to having a healthy debate on these issues and it's going to be done on facts not on fiction

and not on preconceived prejudice are sometimes we hear from the from the far right across europe ok can champaign reply i think it's border i think is bordering rude to tell swedish people who ended up in the ghettos that the other politicians are created to tell them to stay with you to make a generous residual generous really and it's a gruesome killing to use them for invasion really was no secret that you know they don't want to live in. ok muhammad you wonder i really can't can't can't i think i think is pleasing and discriminatory and offensive that you come on international television you make general sweeping statements about my faith in my community i know expect a reaction you need to get your facts straight you need to step away from your prejudice i have my favorite was killed really too like ok i. will not be nice and i'm going to roger in oxford going to have i look like can i just say that my perspective on all this is very different because i don't represent a party nor

a faith community i'm just an academic trying to handle these complicated issues and writing is a rather difficult to keep going i don't know though i just i just wrote i think you start it who started i don't know the joke is quite a bit but i'd really like to say that there's something being lost now work out having what they call inferential dialogue of a death because i haven't heard kent demonize anybody and i think and i think it's very dangerous to start living out of the stereotypes of the great grave danger here now let me just take a moment out here to make a couple of distinctions there is a radical distinction between an extreme right wing neo nazi terroristic violent hitler worshipping white supremacist far right and populist politicians are so loosely called who have grave misgivings about the degree to which a national community become absorbed. ethnic minorities especially if minority is

from a very different religion and culture another second group are not to be conflated with me or not says they are and they are raising the legitimate concerns about about how you run a multicultural society and similarly on the on the on the far right and i can't is not part of the far right there is a very grave danger of confusing is with islam is a noun is. is indeed an integral part of islam it does use fundamentalist references to aspects of islam scripturally to justify its hate and war against the west but it is an extraordinarily small minority faction within islam in the in europe that is drawn towards this so i just think we've got to sort of really make use our responsibility as part of the elites of society's elite because we're articulate and we have the time and luxury to study these things to actually be

a voice of sanity and moderation here there are genuine issues about identity in europe but it doesn't help if we start making big confusions like the english defense league for example in britain between islam and islamism and then talk about the islamization of society not all muslims want our home as it would be it is i don't feel the right gentlemen let me live in london for the solution i'm glad all of us have to do and i hearken artist but we're not politicians well i guess can't you are me in it it's an acquired a sense here but i mean politicians do take advantage of the things you're mohamed let me go to you first because i think that rogers was very articulate about the situation on the ground go ahead moment. i look i'm not i'm not saying. katie is a neo nazi but i'm saying that when you make sweeping statements against the muslim faith oh i know i'm insane i've never said i you know i think if you if you think that i believe in you i'm just judging you base to what you've said an issue or you

. really these are the same people who follow the same right wing ideology which is around demonizing people of faith and particularly muslims or if it's not allowed me it's a headscarf recently card it's the density we want to live in europe this is our home we were born in this continent we committed to protecting this continent is going to be a two way street you can't just be one with traffic and i think yes we've got issues to deal with yes there are serious questions about integration there are serious questions about immigration the impact it has on wider society but it's going to be done in an environment of calmness and based on every you know ok suddenly we have let me just in here in times get quality. going to demonizing community which i think is wrong ok did i get to go to you and i'd like to broaden this out a little bit here because i think sometimes we get very micro and i really appreciate the contribution rogers made broad in the discussion as well but it's really the european union that is feeling as well it is less and less democratic through time

and people do not feel that they're part of that process anymore and i think that makes people fall back on very particular identities because being the european union is run by a small group of elites and now that we're going to get it because he says that merkel is her at his best friend but at the same time he's talking about protectionism and you know and then the whole european project or whatever it means to be european which probably means less and less through time because of the way it's dysfunctional you know this is why people fall back on very specific identities and i'm not just talking about you know the french or the swedes what i'm talking about how people from different base feel in different countries. go ahead. you know that. ok. it's a problem in itself and we're opposed to you being you know in the way it's functioning today no doubt but that identity is in europe is not dependent on the opinion and you know part of the why the union doesn't work is because we have very strong

national defense this to begin with and when you talk about islamisation in this context it's not i'm not saying that every muslim in europe this is part of a huge conspiracy to take over europe but europe is being islam ised just from the fact that muslims and whatnot that have their culture wants to live in accordance with their culture and their religion that's how our society is going to islamist of itself and i mean i understand mr amir and i think it's very important when clearly this is a vacation even if he had only one generally we end the program plus i'd like to say something may go to my heart here i mean really at the end of last year there was a it was a demographic research that came out that by two thousand and fifty it will be the equal number of jews and muslims in europe so talking about the nation of europe is a bit farfetched if you're looking at numbers mohamed go ahead. and you know i mean essentially cain is not demonizing the muslim community but if you listen to some

of the statements he's made in in this thirty minutes suggest that he's going issue with the muslim community muslim phrase like he said last majority of muslims i live with them across the across here in the united kingdom they lied by the law in this land they are happy to live in a christian majority country they have to follow the rule of law and yes the rule of law in this country and across europe allows the right for us to practice our faith according to our own wishes and that's freedom that's a liberal democracy something which looked seems to be immune according to kant from sweden. all right roger i'm going to live with i'm going to give roger the last word twenty seconds go ahead well last word i think we have to remember that liberal democracy it was a very long painful procrustes rich good process that grew out of a europe which was ripping itself apart in sectarian wars between different parts of christianity and now we have a chance to actually make it a genuinely multi-faith multi-cultural society but we've got to really address

every maoris our lives know roger thank you very much and let's remember the victims are to lose ok many thanks to my yesterday in stockholm oxford and in leeds and thanks to our viewers for watching us here i see you next time and remember crossed the. street. you know how sometimes you see a story and it seems so or like you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else and you hear or see some other part of it and realize that everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm sorry welcome to the big picture .

if. me me me me. me. me me me. me me me me .