treat your stuff. to. make your statement. to the world. my little street in the. street. welcome back this is our c.n.n. these are today's stories on the news that shape the week there are representatives of fifty countries gathered in seoul for the second international nuclear security summit with the north korea and iran edging out their gender and on the sidelines that have been brought to bear on need to discuss the syrian crisis and the u.s. missile defense shield. also has offered its full support to the you on arab envoys peace mission in syria saying is maybe the last chance to avoid a prolonged and bloody civil war will that as coffee and and russia's president

hope talks in moscow discussing possible solutions to the crisis and ways of getting all sides to the negotiation table. to loose thousands of people have marched in silence calling for tolerance after a man of algerian origin or shall dead in a standoff with police mourning his killing of seven people this comes as experts say the social exclusion of minorities in france is taking the country to the verge i'm forwarding one. of those the headlines cross-talk is next with its regular delivery of heated debate stay with us hope. please. liz. liz. you can. start. listening

to. a low in welcome to crosstalk i'm peter lavelle invisible children or very visible truths and propaganda the documentary film that went viral on you tube about uganda's child soldiers and a warlord joseph kony has engendered very strong reactions is the film about the suffering of children or a well orchestrated plan preparing public opinion for still another western military adventure in a foreign country. illegally can. still live. to cross-talk the coney two thousand and twelve campaign i'm joined by io johnson in london he is director at viewpoint africa and in award winning journalist on african affairs in paris we go to julie alone and she is head of the africa desk at internet without borders and in washington we go to jendayi frazier she is a distinguished service professor at carnegie mellon university heinz college and

department of social indecision sciences all right folks this is cross like that means you can jump in anytime you want i often go to you first in london what was your reaction to this documentary because i watched it very carefully twice actually for its production value and for its editorial value production value i'll give it a ten out of ten but for what its message was i was very deeply disturbed by it because i walked away from it not being an expert on africa but i felt it was of a exercise in very sophisticated propaganda that has very has many hidden agendas. yeah no doubt about that as was a slip video i think the makers got you fundamentally wrong when the video seemed to be stuck in a particular time which is about ten years ago. of course in was very very active in uganda and clearly he is abduction of children the the the war itself was

physically happening very different from the ugandan that we know today which is very much about peace consciousness open for business and some of the scars associated with those crimes that was committed by the coin back again are not apparent today so there was clearly a distinction between what the video was about which is stuck in time stuck in the past as opposed to what the true reality is where on the ground so this this distinction was not clearly identified and besides the video did not go to extreme lengths to actually show what uganda was like especially with those victims how many of them have actually grown up many of them are teenagers many of them are young adults the reason i say it's hold especially in northern uganda has changed fundamentally people don't live in kansas anymore and of course the the law the war lauding self because of coins of his his movements and his whereabouts are clearly unknown so the video didn't get a holistic approach in terms of tackling me and uganda issue and more so i think

you fail to look at some of the sensitivities associated with the victims because you're using i want to get. to that issue about agency and in the thinking there jenny if i go to view in washington why do you think this film came out now i mean it's very odd i mean you know it's already well known that this footage is what altered least a decade what is the and why did two thousand and twelve and can activism end this great tragedy when we don't we just heard that most of the tragic events betrayed in the documentary or in the past and i happen to now. well i think it's important to say that invisible children has been engaged on this issue for many years and so this is just a ramping up of their campaign to try to increase public awareness and more importantly to put pressure on public officials to take action so i think this is a continuum it's not. a event that does not link to their past actions and

so i think it's just increasing their campaign now clearly they want more action from the obama administration and they got president obama on them and all others you know put one hundred military advisors into east africa and central africa to pursue those of colney by supporting the regional militaries and i think that this is just their attempt i think it was probably somewhat ok unfortunate in the information that they gave which i agree with i always very out of date ok i mean what if they're going to hidden agenda i do i think there is a hidden agenda and we'll talk about those advisors and when you get to the end of last year but jennings i wonder if i can ask you stay with you just before we go to paris i mean were you disturbed by this good guy bad guy bad guy approach in the documentary because he's going to government ten years ago i most would say we're not good guys in these conflicts ok and i was well i think you are sorry and that

was whitewashed in this documentary well i actually don't think it was about the ugandan government this is not invisible children is an activist group that has been very much focused on joseph koni and so i think it's fine for other groups who have issues with the ugandan government to try to let on to the success of their video to take attacks at president was seventy his government but they have a different agenda invisible children has been focused throughout its history all until some of kone and not dealing with the domestic politics. so i think it's unfair to well it's hard to stay away i think it's very unfair to say this information is old ok but i don't think it's i think it's not fair just to give one side of the story because there's a lot of bad character is not one side of the story well there is there is only this one is that there must be ok because that you get me governments it is well documented that ugandan government committed atrocities as well ten years ago and i did go to paris here julie what do you think it's again all new ok well i mean you

can still talk about what happened ten years ago don't why wash history ok julie if i can go to you what do you think of the film i watched what do you think of the film and you wrote a very interesting article about it i mean how what are your reactions to the debates that have come out. yes my reaction i want you to just rest on the point that kearney is a criminal everybody agrees with that and he must be arrested and charged for his crimes but there is a duty of truth for these all these people who spread my messages on uganda and africa in general because the continent has changed anything that is the person who first round on criticism were africans who are saying i don't recognize myself in the picture you're a good thing and and probably tried to stop what they considered as a lie and probably as an intent of propaganda by the coney video and. three elements the invisible children a very questionable transparency in finances the u.s.

military adventure in the region which would have been announced in november and the. current state surrounding natural resources in the region you can understand why so many people suspected the video of actually misleading and producing another truth on purpose so i don't really agree with the fact that it was not a single story a lot of people a lot of africans i couldn't myself felt kind of offended and did not recognize themselves in the image depicted right by the short movie and in my opinion we if we have to talk about the u.s. policy in africa in general it has to be to take another step it has to go towards business like i was saying uganda is a country which is looking for business opportunities and that's what we want to foster what that's what you africans like me want to foster of their continent i mean a thing about you and one in every one of the big criticisms that have come out is the agency issues that you need white people the west to come and sort things out

in africa how do you respond to that because it's very patronizing this film. it is only comes back to that question of whether it's not about time that african stories are told by africans themselves and it is not their responsibility to make sure they have the mediums and the exposure opportunities to actually expose the stories in the fashion they would wish so to to to criticize the agency or this this particular to enjoy or foundation for what they have done nothing is likely harsh but nonetheless a story nonetheless that they've told in their way a story to expose the people that they thought were doing wrong a story that's actually going to raise huge amounts of exposure for them as a business i'm going to raise millions and millions of dollars into their pockets so i think it's the wrong type of message. to be raising money at the expense of those who've actually suffered the most which are the ugandan people who understand me not hate even have a penny from this mint from this very you know so in fact gender you know not even

seen the film exactly jendayi i mean this is very interesting is that we're jewish julie mentioned business but i mean there is these are the filmmakers and their backers are making business for example out of bracelets that solve problems in africa selling bracelets. well no i think their message was really misguided the idea that you're going to make kone thanas and to put his image on t. shirt with twenty twelve as if he's campaigning for an elected office i think it was a truly misguided message and so no i don't think that that's going to solve the problem of the l r a i think it was intended and fact to be an emotional appeal to raise awareness to raise funding and to put pressure on american officials and i think that there were many flaws in the in the design of that campaign which i think julian i'll speak very eloquently about that it is the perspective of

a westerner essentially invisible children took a global media it had a local message that was focused on an american and western audience it didn't take into consideration how it would impact uganda and the ugandan people or more specifically the victims of the l r a and so i think that it was very poorly designed from a message point of view but i don't think that we have to impute bad intentions on the part of invisible children i think that they just got their message and completely wrong and they should have had more guidance probably from blogs or people ok julian perished are you going to have a great grand parents. in your yes yes yes but the invisible children has a responsibility when you take the rest and stability of. encouraging people to take action behind their screen and encourage them to take action for a complicated issue which is get a criminal in a complicated region you have

a duty of telling the truth you have to be ethical about this because i really have issues that we haven't dealt yet where is the legal issue what does mean what does get cut. i mean i don't understand what get him means does it mean the killing that's what i asked in my article does it mean to kill him or to arrest him and judge him we have to be clear in that and you cannot just tell get kone especially like i was saying to africans who have changed who are who are really really keen on being careful of what type of message is spread about their country and their continent i want you all right i'm going to jump right here waiting it's also ok we're going to go to a short break here and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the controversial documentary state department. q. is it.

something to do with what is happening on the streets now as you know after a particularly very wild parts of the south however i totally disagree i think these things the parts of the. we are still waiting for the actual resolution to have. wealthy british scientists. sometimes. don't. like the.

markets financed scandal why not what's really happening to the global economy with max comes or no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune in to cause a report on our cheap. and you can say . welcome back to hostile computer would i remind you we're talking about the myths and realities of you can just children. can go to sleep. i want to go back to you in london i'm not a conspiracy theorist i don't like conspiracies but you know at the end of last year we suddenly we hear american advisers being sent in to uganda to go chase down this warlord and then this film comes out and and the film the message is there

it's you know if the west intervenes you know we have to make of this great effort to get rid of this man and there's if there's implied it must be the west it must be the americans and that's maybe europeans and american allies and it's and i'm very sensitive just because you know all of these interventions lately and i can see one that has worked out very well and i can see how a country and uganda and its neighbors could fare very well with a military intervention there because actually it would make things worse not better. well a lot of people have made a lot of accusations against the charity in question the question simply because of the way they've been able to raise money internally in the united states but if the ugandan army was on able to to capture a coin if they were able to resolve the bitter war which they had ten years ago and clearly all of us neighboring countries are clearly affected and if the united

states wants to offer some level of some courts through do you really only ask you questions you really think that they don't know where he is you can leave well of course it is impossible i think the technology is available now they can pinpoint everyone anywhere in the world and i think they probably have a clue again it's in dense jungle but again the conspiracy about whether the united states wants to use this opportunity to expand africa on across. the african continent colonizing africa again these are some of the sentiments i don't necessarily share that i personally think that they probably have are well intended because they don't physically have much of a presence on in uganda and in this particular instance i think it's just a few hundred american soldiers who are offering missis tense technological chords a minute you can believe it is to the ugandan army and their neighbors to be able to tell the problems that's facing them ok jenny if i go to you the american

involvement in southeast asia started in the late forty's with some good intentions and a few hundred advisors i'd like to point that out here i mean what kind of footprint is the united states creating here in in uganda. you throw probably a less of a footprint in the united states has in many other regions of the world most regions including in europe and so on hundred soldiers as advisors spread across four countries is not a military footprint at all in fact it's doing too little from my perspective and it's primarily a matter of our intelligence is we do have intelligence we have been tracking we've been developing that capability for many many years we have a charlie speakers who help coney's operational security is extremely good he rarely uses the radio and it is not at all easy to track him and we're not that prepared to share that information with a lot of other countries

a lot of groups because you're concerned about losing that capacity and so they're there to give technical assistance to receive any intelligence that we get we get a lot of that from former of the who have escaped and therefore give more information about how corny operates in the bush and his forces and how many they are and so it is not at all easy and there's not really a big military footprint again i say it's doing too little it's not doing too much ok julie what do you think about that you know once you open the gates sometimes it's hard to get i guess to leave do you think about it. well i don't share the idea of creating to which the u.s. might use a kone case to to broaden its its african mission in on the continent but i think really feel that this kone action is that counterproductive example of what should be done but the u.s. policy should be like in africa nowadays in my opinion the urgency for the u.s.

east to foster business relationship when partnership kind of a partnership with these growing economically growing countries africa is a market of one billion comes potential consumers which could be an opportunity for american companies but also for africans and sell because they believe that by doing business we can also tackle a lot of issues so when you see that nowadays only two percent of american foreign trade or outflows are going to africa only two percent are three hundred billion which is nothing i mean and most of them go to an extractive minerals sector but for me it's not really relevant compared to the reality of the continent and interest has a lot of entrepreneurialism really. and that's what i would like to see it seems to me once again we go back to perceptions i really like what julie had to say here because again this documentary film makes africa look like a completely hopeless broken down place that just needs to be rescued and julie

saying really just the opposite is that you know look at what we can really do and give us a fair chance of doing it to sort of entry is counterproductive in our perspective . yes yes on one hundred shows a helpless africa and africa does not that's not capable of addressing his own problems on its own yes but on the other hand it also shows an africa who's clearly understands how geopolitics works on the stands exactly the inference that the chinese have on the african continent and the fear that the united states and european allies alike want to counterbalance that chinese influence so if the americans say getting involved in this campaign it could be on two fold firstly it could be to get kim the influence that was once lost one and also to don't forget uganda like so many other countries that cross the african states are now awash with oil so that in itself could be an incentive agenda when you think about that every centrist thing is that you know this new kind of new neo colonial wave you know the united states western europe china is it turning into

a playground for outsiders again and this film again really is so amazingly sentimental about what the west should do and you know in the west doesn't have a good record in africa let's all remember that. well i think the problem while the west has a mixed record in africa as africa has a mixed record as history has a mixed record i think that it's too simplistic to suggest that either we're going to be militarized or either we should do business or we should just do humanitarian issues or maybe we should just promote democracy in fact u.s. policy does all of those things it's a serious policy and it's a robust and holistic policy and we should be doing more i think it is not the uganda situation i just have to say and the support for the regional countries to try to pursue and arrest kone or kill colony as it may be is not about oil that effort has been going on since two thousand and two when the u.s.

started sharing intelligence that helped lead to coney being dislodged in fact from northern uganda which is not kicked out unfortunately in this film because it is simplistic but i don't think our analysis of u.s. policy should be equally simplistic it is far more complex we're trying to do many things at once and we are trying to develop a holistic approach for instance dealing with northern uganda and according issue we supported the ugandan military with intelligence and capacity night vision goggles cetera we also supported the people of northern uganda especially the charley in terms of the peace process in terms of rehabilitating and reconciling the communities and trying to support. we supported the pre peace talks well jamie jamie dollars but if you would you prefer would have preferred a documentary on everything you just said since two thousand and two do you think that would make people more aware which i'm going on in africa or just documentary

this would be sex no i would have it wouldn't be simplistic enough or often i have to say and i'm not trying to paint a broad brush. but allston activists and advocates who are trying to push a single issue will do so on the basis of emotional kill and on the basis of a simplistic message excellent reach the majority of people and i think that that is part of their trade it's unfortunate i'm so i'm not saying that the film the film should have been accurate in terms of the portrayal of uganda today if you want to talk about it historically it should have been clear that it was historical portrayal of but instead it presented all the facts as if they're current and that and that and the messaging make kone famous were the two fundamental flaws i think of our callie twenty twelve video but i but i also think from the point of view of looking at us policy that we should not be equally simplistic all they're just

trying to chase. all they're just militarize of reality you are you are in pretty bad. interventions go ahead go ahead julie jump in her story we're just we're not being simplistic we're saying that efforts are not made where they should be i mean in my opinion like a sad it is high time for that for us is africa other then a simple stock of natural resources it's also. a potential economic potential that should be embraced also so that's what i'm saying we're not being simplistic saying that it's it's a reality i guess you really think it's a said to chris and of for in trade is going to africa it's not sufficient i agree i agree generally. julie i agree with your point but i don't think the united states is simply seeing africa as a source of natural resources the united states under the clinton administration passed the africa growth and opportunity act which was an act which was to

encourage crazily with africa and to create a duty free entrance of african products into the american market but we've got to get those products from africa the united states is trying to put in place policies for transparency anti corruption and i think u.s. government doesn't do enough to support american companies and africa but we're covering a country that got away with it when i got i was like you know we're almost out of time here what is the legacy of this in your opinion i mean is there and we know you people know more or less or the wrong things about africa. well i think people know slightly more about africa and exposes africa for its frailties on these issues which are still tsunami of the continent sadly but i think it puts africa back in the spotlight i mean the numbers of people that have watched the video only celebrates that fact but again it's also shows that africa has to look at itself and the right come to expose its own stories in the fashion i think the wish

is not cause you can see quite clearly that you've done the things that there's been an element of damage to its reputation moving forward which is why they have got to create a campaign now to show exactly what the current situation is uganda is like now to to solve a counter this massive exposure which sadly shows us out of time i hope that somebody will make a documentary about the reactions to this documentary many thanks to my guests today in london paris and in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching s.q.r.t. to see you next time and remember. you can still. exists. tom explodes. its intentions.

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