margit. happening to the global economy because reports on. the main stories we're covering for you this hour are not. in washington see eye to eye of the role of special envoy kofi annan mission in syria is the first step towards peace is present. strains. also. a controversial israeli only policy has been criticized calling on soldiers to avoid the costs even if it means taking their own life. and brain drain from the baltic. states. scares away its young people.

trying to cause a living country stagnating economy. because of the headlines. with its regular days of heated debate this time of the controversial documentary kony twenty twelve exposing bloodshed in uganda. to keep. a low in welcome across peter lavelle invisible children are very visible truths i began to the documentary film. and is child soldiers and warlord joseph kony

has engendered very strong reactions and is the film about the suffering of children or a well and preparing public opinion. western military adventure in a foreign country. to cross not because i need two thousand and twelve campaign i'm joined by our you johnson in london he is director at viewpoint africa and in award winning journalist and african affairs in paris we go to julie alone oh she is head of the africa desk at internet without borders and in washington we go to jendayi frazier she is a distinguished service professor at carnegie mellon university hines college and department of social in decision sciences all right folks this is cross-legged means you can jump in anytime you want i often go to you first in london what was your reaction to this documentary because i watched it very carefully twice

actually for its production value and for its editorial value production value i'll give it a ten out of ten but for what its message was i was very deeply disturbed by it because i walked away from it not being an expert on africa but i felt it was a a exercise in very sophisticated propaganda it has very it has many hidden agendas . yeah no doubt about that as was a slick video i think the makers got it from the mentally wrong when the video seemed to be stuck in a particular time which is about ten years ago. of corn was very very active in uganda and clearly he abduction of children the the the war itself was physically happening. very different from the uganda that we know today which is very much part peace a country that's open for business and some of the scars associated with those

crimes i was committed by the coin back then are not apparent today so there was clearly a distinction between what the video was about which is stuck in time stuck in the past as opposed to what the true reality is were on the ground so this this distinction was not clearly identified and besides the video did not go to extreme lengths to actually show what uganda was like especially with those victims how many of them have actually grown up many of them are teenagers many of them are young adults the regional says hold especially in northern uganda has changed fundamentally people don't live in camps anymore. no of course to the lord the war lord himself was of course in in self he's his movements and his whereabouts are clearly are known so the media didn't get a ballistic approach in terms of tackling me you can do issue and more so i think it failed to look at some of the sensitivities of sitting with the victims because the only thing i want to take you back to that issue about agency and in a second here jenny if i go if you in washington why do you think this film came

out now i mean it's very odd i mean it you know it's already well known that this footage is what altered least a decade what is the why did two thousand and twelve and kill activism and this great tragedy when we don't we just heard that most of the tragic events betrayed in the documentary or in the past and i happen to now. well i think it's important to say that invisible children has been engaged on this issue for many years and so this is just wrapping up of their campaign to try to increase public awareness and more importantly to put pressure on public officials to take action so i think this is a continuum that's not. a event that does not link to their past actions and so i think it's just increasing their campaign now clearly they want more action from the old bamma administration they got president obama on them and others you know

put one hundred military advisors into east africa and central africa to pursue fields of corn and by supporting the regional militaries and i think that this is just their attempt i think it was probably somewhat ok unfortunate in the information that they gave which i agree with i always very out of date ok i'll let it be what it they're going to be hidden agenda and i'd like to i think there is a hidden agenda and we'll talk about those advisers that when you get to the end of last year but jeff if i can ask you stay with you just before we go to paris i mean disturbed by this good guy bad guy bad guy approach of the documentary because he's getting government ten years ago i was most would say we're not good guys in these conflicts ok and that was what i think you are sorry and that was whitewashed in this documentary. you don't think it was about ugandan government this is not invisible children is an activist group that has been very much focused on joseph

koni and so i think it's fine for other groups who have issues with the ugandan government to try to latch on to the success of their video to take attacks at present to seventy his government but they have a different agenda invisible children has been focused throughout its history one joseph koni and not dealing with the domestic politics on. so i think it's unfair to well it's charge them but i think it's very unfair to say this information is all ok but i don't think it's i think it's not fair just to give one side of the story because there's a lot of bad character is not one side of the story well the irony in this is only this one is that i must think ok because that you give me government it is well well documented ugandan government committed atrocities as well ten years ago and i did go to paris here julie what do you think it's again old news ok well i mean you can still talk about what happened ten years ago don't why wash history ok julie if i can go to you what do you think of the film i watched what do you think of the film and you wrote a very interesting article about it i mean how what are your reactions to the

debate for to come out. yes my reaction i want to to stress on the point that coney is a criminal everybody agrees with that and he must be arrested and charged for his crimes but there is a duty of truth for these all these people who stray message isn't uganda and africa in general because the continent as change anything not is the person who first round on criticism or africans who are saying i don't recognize myself in the picture you're depicting and and probably tried to stop what they considered as a lie and probably others and in terms of propaganda by the coney video and if you three elements the invisible children very questionable transparency and finances the u.s. military agenda in the region which which had been announced in november and. the current state surrounding natural resources in the region you can understand why so many people suspected the video of actually misleading and producing another truth

on purpose so i don't really agree we the fact that this was not a single story a lot of people are out of africans that couldn't myself felt kind of offended and did not recognize themselves in the image depicted side by the short movie and in my opinion we if we have to talk about the u.s. policy in africa in general it has to be to take another step he has to go towards business like i was saying uganda is a country which is looking for business opportunities and that's what we want to foster and what that's what you africans like me want to foster of their continent i mean frankly very few and one in every one of the criticisms that have come out is the agency issues that you need white people the west to come and sort things out in africa how do you respond to that because it's very patronizing this film. it is and it comes back to that question of whether it's not about time that african stories are told by africans themselves and if it's not their responsibility to make sure they have the need and the exposure opportunities to

actually expose the stories in the fashion they would wish so to to to criticize the agency over this this particular enjoy or foundation for what they've done i think it's likely harsh but nonetheless a story nonetheless that they've told in their way a story to expose the people that they thought were doing wrong and story that's actually going to raise huge amounts of exposure for them as a business i'm going to raise millions and millions of dollars into their pockets so i think it's the wrong type of message to be raising money at the expense of those who've actually suffered the most which are the ugandan people who are misled me not hate even have a penny from this from his very soul or in fact in general you know not even seen the film exactly jendayi i mean this this is very interesting is that we're doing it julie mentioned business but i mean there is these are the filmmakers and their backers are making business for example out of bracelets that solve problems in

africa selling bracelets. well no i think their message was really misguided the idea that you're going to make kone famous and to put his image on a t. shirt with twenty twelve as if he's campaigning for an elected office i think it was truly misguided message and so no i don't think that that's going to solve the problem of the l r a i think it was intended in fact to be an emotional appeal to raise awareness to raise fine dean and to put pressure on american officials and i think that there were many flaws in the in the design of that campaign which i think julian i'll speak very eloquently about that it is the perspective of a westerner essentially invisible children took a global media and had a local message that was focused on an american and western audience it didn't take into consideration how it would impact uganda and the ugandan people or more

specifically the victims of the l r a and so i think that it was very poorly designed from a message point of view but i don't think that we have to impute bad intentions on the part of invisible children i think that they just got their message and completely wrong and they should have had more guidance probably from the answer people ok julie in paris to remember to grant. yes yes yes but this invisible children has a responsibility when you take the rest and civility of. encouraging people to take action behind their screen and encourage it to take action for a complicated issue which is get a criminal in a comfort katie region you have. a duty of telling the truth you have to be ethical about these because i mean having issues that we haven't dealt yet with. the legal

issue what does mean what does get cut. i mean i don't understand what get him means does it mean to kill him that's what i asked in my article does it mean to kill him or to arrest him and judge him we have to be clear in that and you cannot just tell get kone especially like i was saying to africans who have changed who are who are really really keen on being careful of what type of message and spread about their country and their continent i want you all right i'm going to jump in here waiting it's also ok we're going to go to a short break here and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the controversial documentary film state party.

something to you what is happening on the streets now as you know the after party for a while parts of the south however i totally disagree i think he thinks the parts of the. we are still weak to actually resolution to have. technology innovation. developments around russia we've got the future. welcome back to crossfire coming to remind you we're talking about the myths and

realities of you can't just children. ok can. i i'd like to go back to you in london i'm not a conspiracy theorist i don't like conspiracies but you know at the end of last year we suddenly we hear american advisers being sent into uganda to go chase down this warlord and then this film comes out and and the film the message is there it's you know if the west intervenes you know we have to make of this great effort to get rid of this man and there's if there's implied it must be the west it must be the americans and maybe europeans and american allies and it's and i'm very sensitive this because you know all of these interventions lately and i can't see one that has worked out very well and i can't see how a country and uganda in its neighbors could fare very well with a military intervention there because actually it would make things worse not

better. well a lot of people have made a lot of accusations against the question the engine question simply because of the way they've been able to raise money internally in the united states but if the ugandan army was on able to to to capture a coin if they were able to resolve the bitter war which they had ten years ago and clearly other neighboring countries are clearly affected and if the united states wants to offer some level of support through do you really only i let me ask you a question do you really think if they don't know where he is if you believe that well of course it's impossible i think the technology is available now they could pinpoint anywhere everyone anywhere in the world i think they probably have a clue and it's in ben's jungle but again the conspiracy about whether united states want to use this opportunity to expand africa on across. the african

continent colonizing africa again these are some of the sentiments i'm going to tell you share that i personally think that they probably are well intended because they don't physically have that much of a presence on in uganda and in this particular instance i think it's just a few hundred american soldiers who are offering assistance technological supports military capabilities to the ugandan army and they need those to be able to curtail the problems that's facing them ok general if i go to you the american involvement in southeast asia start in the late forty's with some good intentions and a few hundred advisors i'd like to point that out here i mean what kind of footprint is the united states creating here in in uganda. you throw probably a less of a footprint than the united states has in many other regions of the world most regions including in europe and so one hundred soldiers as advisors spread across four countries is not a military footprint at all in fact it's doing too little on from my perspective

and it's primarily a matter of our intelligence is that we do have intelligence we have been tracking we've been developing that capability for many many years and we have a charlie speakers who help coney's operational security is extremely good he rarely uses the radio and it is not at all easy to track him and we're not that prepared to share that information with a lot of other countries a lot of groups because you're concerned about losing that capacity and so they are there to give technical assistance to receive any intelligence that we get we get a lot of that from former abducted these who have escaped and therefore give more information about how corny operates in the bush and his forces and how many they are and so it is not at all easy and there's not really a big military footprint again i say it's doing too little it's not doing too much ok julie what do you think about that you know once you open the gates sometimes

it's hard to get i guess to leave do you think about it. well i don't share the idea of creating to which the u.s. might use a kone case to to broaden its africa mission in on the continent but i think we really feel that this kone action is that counterproductive example of what should be done but the u.s. policy should be like in africa that nowadays in my opinion the urgent thing for the u.s. is to foster business relationship a win win partnership the kind of partnership with this growing economically growing countries africa is a market of going billion concert potential consumers which could be an opportunity for american companies but also for africans and sell because they believe that by doing business we can also tackle a lot of issues so when you see that nowadays only two percent of american foreign trade or outflows are going to africa only two percent are three hundred billion

which is nothing i mean and most of them go to boyd and extractive minerals sector but for me it's not really relevant compared to the reality of the continent and with me it's interest has a lot of entertainers and i just really enjoy it and that's what i would like to see i mean it seems to me once again we go back to perceptions i really like would really have to say here because again this documentary film makes africa look like a completely hopeless broken down place that just needs to be rescued and julie saying really just the opposite is you know look at what we can really do would give us a fair chance of doing it was documented is counterproductive in our perspective. yes yes on one hundred shows in helpless africa and africa does not that's not capable of addressing his own problems on its own yes well on the other hand it also shows in africa who's clearly understands how your politics works on the stance exactly the inference that the chinese have on the african continent and the fear that the united states and european allies alike wants to counterbalance that

chinese influence so if the americans are getting involved in this campaign it could be on two fronts firstly it could be to convey influence that was once lost one and also two don't forget uganda like something other countries are cross the africans are now awash with oil so that in itself could be an incentive and candy when you think about that every centrist thing is that you know this new kind of new neo colonial wave you know the united states western europe china is it turning into a playground for outsiders again in this film again and really it's a so i'm a amazingly sentimental about what the west should do ok and you know in the west doesn't have a good record in africa with all remember that. well i think the problem of the west has a mixed record in africa as africa has a mixed record as history has a mixed record i think that it's too simplistic to suggest that either we're going to be militarized there either we should do business or we should just do humanitarian issues or maybe we should just promote democracy in fact u.s.

policy does all of those things it's a serious policy and it's a robust and holistic policy and we should be doing more i think it is not the uganda situation i just have to say and the support for the regional countries to try to pursue and arrest kone or kill corny as it may be is not about oil that effort has been going on since two thousand and two when the u.s. started sharing intelligence that helped lead to coney being dislodged in fact from northern uganda which is not picked up unfortunately in this film because it is simplistic but i don't think our analysis of u.s. policy should be equally simplistic it is far more complex and we're trying to do many things at once and we are trying to develop a holistic approach for instance dealing with northern uganda and the corny issue we supported the ugandan military with intelligence and capacity night vision

goggles cetera we also supported the people of northern uganda especially the a charlie in terms of the peace process in terms of rehabilitating and reconciling the communities and trying to support former of these we supported the peace talks . with our listeners you would you prefer would have preferred a documentary on everything you've just said since two thousand and two do you think that would make people more aware of what's going on in africa or just. this would be sex no i would have it wouldn't be simplistic enough or often i have to say and i am not trying to paint a broad brush. but allston activists and advocates who are trying to push a single issue will do so on the basis of emotional appeal and on the basis of a simplistic message sexual reached the majority of people and i think that that is part of their trade it's unfortunate i'm so i'm not saying that the film should

have been accurate in terms of the perpetrator of uganda today if you want to talk about it historically it should have been clear that it was a store corporate trail but instead it presented all the facts as if their current and that that and the messaging make kone famous were the two fundamental flaws i think of i'll call it twenty twelve video but i but i also think from the point of view of looking at us policy that we should not be equally simplistic all they're just trying to chase. all they're just militarize reality you are a pretty valid reason to. go ahead go ahead julie jump in paris. we're just we're not being simplistic where saying that efforts are not made where they should be i mean in my opinion like a sad it is high time for us is africa other then a simple start of natural resources it's also. a potential economic potential that

should be embraced also so that's what i'm saying we're not being so please think saying that it's it's a reality i really figuring it is said to and i agree santa for in trade is going to africa it's not sufficient i agree and i agree julie. i agree with your point but i don't think the united states is simply seeing africa as a source of natural resources the united states under the clinton administration passed the after growth and opportunity act which was an act which was to encourage trade with africa and to create a duty free entrance of african products into the american market but we got to get those products for america united states is trying to put in place policies for transparency anti corruption i think the u.s. government doesn't do enough to support american companies and africa but we're covering a kind of i don't know what i want you know you know it's like you know we're almost out of time here what is the legacy of this film in your opinion i mean is

are we know who people know more or less or the wrong things about africa. well i think people know slightly more about africa to expose this africa for its frailties and its issues which are still tsunami out of the continent sadly but i think it puts africa back in the spotlight i mean the numbers of people that have watched the video only celebrates that fact but again it's also shows that africa has from look at itself on the right time to expose its own stories in the fashion i think the wishes and of course you can see quite clearly that you've done the things that there's been a little damage to its reputation moving forward which is why they're going to create a campaign now to show exactly what the current situation is uganda is like now to sort of counter this massive exposure which sadly show us are out of time i hope somebody will make a documentary about the reactions to this documentary many thanks to my guest today in london paris and in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember rostov. just splendid

to take you. straight. to the wheel to see if you want to feel the way. tom explodes. its attentions to good school just so. that you to listen to your secured sides. on the party's.

them.

you know how sometimes you see a story and it seems so for life you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else you hear or see some other part of it and realize everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm tom harvey welcome to the big picture.