thanks for joining us in our past the hour and characterize here's a look at your headlines also in washington c on i over the role of special envoy kofi annan on some mission in syria as the first step towards feets as presidents may be did and obama exchanged their final handshakes. vigorously and for moammar gadhafi a may have been due to more than just a frenzied long thoughts man who engineer of the regime's downfall now says some wanted to keep the colonel silent and. a controversial israeli army policy in the

house been criticized for cold soldiers to avoid kidnap at all costs even if it means taking their own life or that of a comrade. and brain drain from the ball taken once of a booming state mafias rampant unemployment now scares away its young people prefer manual work abroad to try to carve out a living in their countries stagnating economy. well those are the headlines cross-talk is next with its regular dose of heated debate this time on the controversial documentary kone twenty twelve exposing bloodshed in a gondola. please. liz. can you. still. listen to.

live. alone and welcome the crosstalk i'm peter lavelle invisible children or very visible truths and propaganda the documentary film that went viral on you tube about uganda's child soldiers and a warlord joseph kony has engendered very strong reactions is the film about the suffering of children or a well orchestrated plan preparing public opinion for still another western military adventure in a foreign country. live can. live . to cross talk the canid two thousand and twelve campaign i'm joined by io johnson in london he is director at viewpoint africa and in award winning journalist and african affairs in paris we go to julie alone oh she is head of the africa desk at internet without borders and in washington we go to jendayi frazier she is

a distinguished service professor at carnegie mellon university hines college and department of social in decision sciences all right folks this is cross i mean she can jump in anytime you want i often go to you first in london what was your reaction to this documentary because i watched it very carefully twice actually for its production value and for its editorial value production value all give it a ten out of ten but for what its message was i was very deeply disturbed by it because i walked away from it not being an expert on africa but i felt it was of a exercise in very sophisticated propaganda it has very it has many kids agendas. yeah no doubt about that as was a slick video i think the makers got it from the mentally wrong when the video seemed to be stuck in a particular time which is about ten years ago. of course in was very very active in uganda and clearly he is

a doctrine of children the the war itself was physically happening. very different from the uganda that we know today which is very much about peace a country that's open for business and some of the scars associated with those crimes i was committed by the coin back then are not apparent today so there was clearly a distinction between what the video was about which is stuck in time stuck in the past as opposed to what the true reality is where on the ground so this this distinction was not clearly identified and besides the video did not go to extreme lengths to actually show what uganda was like especially with those victims how many of them have actually grown up many of them are teenagers many of them are young adults the reason i say it's hold especially in northern uganda has changed fundamentally people don't live in camps anymore and of course the the war lauding self of korean in self is his movement and his whereabouts are clearly are known so are the. political approach in terms of tackling the you can do issue and more so i

think it failed to look at some of the sensitivities associated with the victims because the only thing i want to get back to that issue about agency and in effect again jenny if i go to view in washington why do you think this film came out now i mean it's very odd i mean you know it's already well known the dispute is what altered least a decade what is the why do you thousand and twelve and can activism end this great tragedy when we don't we just heard that most of the tragic events betrayed in the documentary or in the past and i happen to now. well i think it's important to say that invisible children has been engaged on this issue for many years and so this is just a ramping up of their campaign to try to increase public awareness and more importantly to put pressure on public officials to take action so i think this is a continuum that's not. a event that does not link to their past actions and

so i think it's just increasing their campaign now clearly they want more action from the obama administration and they got president obama on them and all others you know put one hundred military advisors into east africa and central africa to pursue fields of quality by supporting the regional militaries and i think that this is just they're a town i think it was probably somewhat it's ok unfortunate in information that they gave which i agree with i always very out of date ok i mean what if they're going to get an agenda i'd like to i think there is a hidden agenda and we'll talk about those advisors that when you get to the end of last year but jenny if i can ask you stay with you just before we go to paris i mean were you disturbed by this good guy bad guy bad guy approach of the documentary because he's going to government ten years ago i was most would say we're not good guys in these conflicts ok and that was what i think it was i'm

sorry that was whitewashed in this documentary well i don't think it was about the ugandan government this is not invisible children is an activist group that has been very much focused on joseph koni and so i think it's fine for other groups who have issues with the ugandan government to try to latch on to the success of their video to take attacks president was said to his government but they have a different agenda invisible children has been focused throughout its history all until civ kone and not dealing with the domestic politics. so i think it's unfair to well it's hard to stay away but i think it's a good fair to say this information is all ok but i don't think it's i think it's not fair just to give one side of the story because there's a lot of bad character is not one side of the story well there is there is only one who's out there must think ok because that you get me governments it is well documented you again in government committed atrocities as well ten years ago and i

did go to paris here julie what do you think it's again old news ok well i mean you can still talk about what happened ten years ago don't i wash history ok julie if i can go to you what do you think of the film i watched what do you think of the film and you wrote a very interesting article about it i mean what are your reactions to the debates that have come out. yes my reaction i want to to to stress on the point that coney is a criminal every really increase mean that he must be arrested and charged for his crimes but there is a duty of truth for peace all these people who spread mentioned messages aren't uganda and africa in general because the continent ice changed anything that is the person who first round on criticism were africans who are saying i don't recognize myself in the picture you're into thinking and and probably try to stop what they consider it as a lie and probably as an attempt of propaganda by the coney video and. three elements. invisible children a very questionable transparency in finances the u.s.

military adventure in the region which which had been announced in november and. the current state surrounding natural resources in the region you can understand why so many people suspected the video of actually misleading and producing another truth on purpose so i don't really agree with the fact that it was not a single story a lot of people a lot of africans that couldn't myself felt kind of offended and did not recognize themselves in the image depicted by by this short movie and in my opinion if we have to talk about the u.s. policy in africa in general it has to be to take another step it has to go towards is this like i was saying uganda is a country which is looking for business opportunities and that's what we want to foster and what that's what you africans like me want to foster of their continent and you're fine about u n one and one of the big criticisms that have come out is the agency issues that you need white people the west to come and sort things out

in africa how do you respond to that because it's very patronizing this film. it is only comes back to that question of whether it's not about time that african stories are told by africans themselves and it is not their responsibility to make sure they have the medians underexposure opportunities to actually expose the stories in the fashion they would wish so to criticize the agency or this this particular child to enjoy or foundation for what they have done nothing is likely harsh but nonetheless a story nonetheless that they were told in their way a story to expose the people that they thought were doing wrong and story that's actually going to raise huge amounts of exposure for them as a business i'm going to raise millions and millions of dollars into their pockets so i think it's the wrong type of message to be raising money at the expense of those who've actually suffered the most which are the ugandan people who understand me not even have

a penny from this moment from this very interesting so in fact gender you know not even seen the film exactly ten days i mean this is very interesting is that we were jewish you mentioned business but i mean there is these are the filmmakers and their backers are making business for example out of bracelets that solves problems in africa selling bracelets. well no i think their message was really misguided the idea that you're going to make conan famous and to put his image on a t. shirt with twenty twelve as if he's campaigning for an elected office i think it was truly misguided message and so no i don't think that that's going to solve the problem of the l r a i think it was intended and fact to be an emotional keel to raise awareness to raise funding and to put pressure on american officials and i think that there were many flaws in the in the design of that campaign which i think julian i'll speak very eloquently about that it is the perspective of

a westerner essentially invisible children took a global media and had a local message that was focused on an american and western audience and didn't take into consideration how it would impact uganda and the ugandan people or more specifically the victims of the l r a and so i think that it was very poorly designed from a message point of view but i don't think that we have to impute bad intentions on the part of invisible children i think that they just got their message and completely wrong and they should have had more guidance probably from the people ok julie in paris during the migrants who were the grand parents. yes yes yes but the invisible children has a responsibility when you take the rest and stability of. encouraging people to take action behind their screen and encourage it to take action for

a complicated issue rich is a criminal in a complicated region you have a duty of telling the truth you have to be ethical about these because there is another issue that we haven't dealt yet read is the legal issue what does mean what does get cut. i mean i don't understand what get him means does it mean to kill him that's what i asked in my article does it mean to kill him or to arrest him and judge him we have to be clear in that and you cannot just tell get kone especially like i was saying to africans who have changed and who are who are really really keen on being careful of what type of message is spread about their country and their continent i want you all right i'm going to jump right here waiting it's also very ok we're going to go to a short break here and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the controversial documentary film state partly.

because if you're looking for. something good for you what is happening on the streets now is the you know the after parties are very wild parts of this is how i was right totally disagree i don't even think the parts of the. we are still waiting for the actual resolution to have. listen tom explodes. its intentions. will occur to the for. the few thousands of nuclear security summit. on r.t.c. . to kick. start.

listening to. welcome back to crossfire computer will remind you we're talking about the myths and realities of you can't just children. live chickens. started to live. i want to go back to you in london i'm not a conspiracy theorist i don't like conspiracies but you know at the end of last year we suddenly we hear american advisors being sent into uganda to go chase down this warlord and then this film comes out and and the film the message is there it's you know if the west intervenes you know we have to make of this great effort to get rid of this man and there's if there's an implied it must be the west it must be the americans or most maybe europeans and american allies and it's and i'm very sensitive this because you know all of these interventions lately and i can see one that is work out very well and i can see how

a country and uganda and its neighbors could fare very well with a military intervention there because actually it would make things worse not better. well a lot of people have made a lot of accusations against the charity in question the engine question simply because of the way they've been able to raise money internally in the united states but if the ugandan army was on able to to to capture a coin if they weren't able to resolve the bitter war which they had ten years ago and clearly others neighboring countries are clearly affected and if the united states wants to offer some level of supports through do you do you really only let me ask you a question do you really think if they don't know where he is if you believe that well of course it's impossible i think the technology is available now they could pinpoint anywhere everyone anywhere in the world i think they probably have

a clue but again it's in dense jungle but again the conspiracy about whether the united states wants to use this opportunity to expand africa across. the african continent colonizing africa again these are some of the sentiments i don't necessarily share them but i personally think that they probably are well intended because they don't physically have much of a presence on in uganda and in this particular instance i think it's just a few hundred american soldiers who are offering assistance technological support and the minute you complete is to the ugandan army and their neighbors to be able to could tell the problems that's facing them ok general finally you are the american involvement in southeast asia starting early forty's with some good intentions and a few hundred advisors i'd like to point that out here i mean what kind of footprint is the united states creating here in in uganda. you throw probably a less of a footprint in the united states has in many other regions of the world in most

regions including in europe and so on hundred soldiers as advisors spread across four countries is not a military footprint at all in fact it's doing too little from my perspective and it's primarily a matter of our intelligence is we do have intelligence we have been tracking we've been developing that capability for many many years we have a charlie speakers who help coney's operational security is extremely good he rarely uses the radio and it is not at all easy to track him and we're not that prepared to share that information with a lot of other countries a lot of groups because you're concerned about losing that capacity and so they're there to give technical assistance to receive any intelligence that we get we get a lot of that from former of the piece who have escaped and therefore give more information about how corny operates in the bush and his forces and how many they

are and so it is not at all easy and there's not really a big military footprint again i say it's doing too little it's not doing too much ok julie what do you think about that if you don't want to open the gates sometimes it's hard to get a guest to leave but you think about it. well i don't share the idea of korean to which the u.s. might use a kone case to to broaden its its africa mission in on the continent but i think really feel that this kone action is that counterproductive example of what should be done but the u.s. policy should be like in africa nowadays in my opinion the urgency for the u.s. is to foster business relationship a win win partnership the kind of a partnership with this growing economy growing countries africa is a market of one billion concert potential consumers which could be an opportunity for american companies but also for africans and sell because they believe that by doing business we can also tackle

a lot of issues so when you see that nowadays only two percent of american foreign trade or else those are going to africa only two percent are three hundred billion which is nothing i mean and most of them go to boyd and extractive mineral sector but for me it's not really relevant compared to the reality of the continent and with its interests has a lot of entrepreneurialism it's really interesting and it's what i would like to see it seems to me once again we're going back to perceptions i really like which really had to say here because again this documentary film makes africa look like a completely hopeless broken down place that just needs to be rescued and julie saying really just the opposite is that you know look at what we can really do and give us a fair chance of doing it this documentary is counterproductive in our perspective . yes yes on one hundred shows and help west africa and africa does not that's not capable of addressing his own problems on its own yes but on the other hand it also shows an africa who's clearly understands how your politics works understands

exactly the influence that the chinese have on the african continent and the fear that the united states and european allies alike wants to counterbalance that chinese influence so if the americans are getting involved in this campaign it could be on two fronts firstly it could be to influence that was once last one and also true don't forget that uganda like so many other countries a cross the africans are now awash with oil so that in itself could be an incentive agenda when you think about that every centrist thing is that you know this new kind of new neo colonial wave you know the united states western europe china is it turning into a playground for outsiders again and this film again really is a so amazingly sentimental about what the west should do ok and you know in the west doesn't have a good record in africa let's all remember that. well i think the problem of the west has a mixed record in africa as africa has a mixed record as history has

a mixed record i think that it's too simplistic to suggest that either we're going to be militarized or either we should do business or we should just do humanitarian issues or maybe we should just promote democracy in fact u.s. policy does all of those things it's a serious policy and it's a robust and holistic policy and we should be doing more i think it is not the uganda situation i just have to say and the support for the regional countries to try to pursue and arrest cloning or kill colony as it may be is not about oil that effort has been going on since two thousand and two when the u.s. started sharing intelligence that helped lead to coney being dislodged in fact from northern uganda which is not picked up unfortunately in this film because it is simplistic but i don't think our analysis of u.s. policy should be equally simplistic it is far more complex and we're trying to do

many things at once and we are trying to develop a holistic approach for instance dealing with northern uganda and the corning issue we supported the ugandan military with intelligence and capacity night vision goggles cetera we also supported the people of northern uganda especially the actually in terms of the peace process in terms of rehabilitating and reconciling the communities and trying to support. these we supported the free peace talks well jamie jamie dollars but if you would you prefer would have preferred a documentary on everything you just said since two thousand and two you think that would make people more aware which i'm going on in africa or just leave the argument this would be sex not i would have it would be simplistic enough for often i have to say and i'm not trying to paint a broad brush. but allston activists and advocates who are trying to push a single issue will do so on the basis of emotional appeal and on the basis of

a simplistic message sexual reached a majority of people and i think that that is part of their trade it's unfortunate i'm so i'm not saying it to be on the film should have been accurate in terms of the portrayal of uganda today if you want to talk about it historically it should have been clear that it was a store corporate trail but instead it presented all the facts as if they're current and that and that and the messaging may callie famous were the two fundamental flaws i think of corny twenty twelve video but i but i also think from the point of you're looking at us policy that we should not be equally simplistic all they're just trying to chase. all they're just militarize of reality you have already very very valid research. well go ahead go ahead julie jump in paris. we're just we're not being simplistic we're saying that efforts are not made where they should be i mean in my opinion like

a sad it is high time for that for us is africa other then a simple stock of natural resources it's also. a potential economic potential that should be embraced also so that's what i'm saying without being some place think saying that it's it's a reality i believe figuring it is said to chris and of for in trade it's going to africa it's not sufficient i agree i agree totally. i agree with your point but i don't think the united states is simply seeing africa as a source of natural resources the united states under the clinton administration passed the africa growth and opportunity act which was an act which was to encourage trade with africa and to create a duty free entrance of african products into the american market but we got to give those products from africa united states is trying to put in place policies for transparency anti corruption i think u.s. government doesn't do enough to support american companies and africa but we're

covering a country that doesn't want to do what i want you know you guys like you know we're almost out of time here what is the legacy of this film in your opinion i mean is there do we know if people know more or less or the wrong things about africa. well i think people know slightly more about africa and exposes africa for its frailties and its issues which are still synonymous with the continent sadly but i think it puts africa back in the spotlight i mean the numbers of people that have watched the video on the celebrates that fact but again it's also shows that africa has to look at itself and why it can't expose its own stories in the fashion i think the wishes and of course you can see quite clearly that you're going to things that there's been an element of damage to its reputation moving forward which is why they're going to create a campaign now to show exactly what the current situation is uganda is like now to to sort of counter this massive exposure which sadly show you. somebody will make

a documentary about the reactions to this documentary many thanks to my guest today in london paris and in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching this new york see you next time and remember crossed our bills. to take you straight. to listen to the exists.

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