this is once again flared up. and these are the images from seeing from the streets of canada. giant corporations rule the day. welcome back kotter look at the headlines. as the syrian government of race is a u.n.'s backed peace plan for members of their country outside opposition struggle to come together with a single unified purpose rebel these border towns on their bottoms during a conference in turkey designed to rally the opposition to. a private conversation between the leaders of russia and america has called on them like me to nuclear security summit in seoul to sponsor a wave of cold war in the stone age or among some of the presidential candidates

leading us politician from the washington's number one. interested in britain call for heavy handed brought peace to face justice as one was seriously injured student demonstrations finds himself in the dark more than fifty students were hurt in twenty ten point text against the institution hikes. on next cross talk with people of well looking at what's ahead for the occupy wall street protest movement six months off it was brutal. liz. liz. can you start. listening

to. the low and welcome the crosstalk i'm peter lavelle with the arrival of spring occupy wall street protesters are coming out of their winter hibernation with plans for renewed demonstrations six months after the movement was born what has been accomplished if anything and what lies ahead for this undefined and loose knit community of protesters the slim pickings slim. to cross stop the six month anniversary of the occupy wall street demonstrations i'm joined by bernadine zennie in washington she's a spokesperson for now d.c. in new york we have danny schechter he is a journalist author and independent filmmaker and also in new york we have charles koch he's a writer for the national review all right folks this is crossfire going to use you can jump in anytime you want bernie dean bernie and if i can ask you go to you first what has been accomplished in the last six months with the occupy wall street movement. i think. that people have self

appropriated their activism they've they've really come out and decided to actualize their thoughts and feelings about what's going on in america about the injustice about the disparity of income and power i think pretty much people have have come to really find their voice and find their ability to. ok charles i mean obviously there's been a lot of demonstrations in the last six months and there's been a lot of commentary about it positive or negative as it meant anything is it true in strand slated into anything beyond just a lot of noise i don't think. if it had it would of course bother me because i don't agree with their aims but that's a separate question from whether it has or not. but from what i saw i saw an awful lot of time diamonds of course you park uncovering this in in across new york and

what i saw was people who were previously disparate in thinking what they think coming into one place rather than people who hadn't been involved in politics before suddenly rising up against the status quo i think your w.t. protesters and your environmentalist say in your radicals all came and sat in one place i don't think people came out of their houses and said now i must do something about this as they did in say the civil rights movement ok danny what do you think about that. well first of all mike check thank you for having me on it look you know of course there's been a big change in the conversation at least in the media and in many other sectors of our society just i think yes they are reported that wall street firms are admitting at least in a recent survey that their p.r. that their image is now terrible thanks to the assaults on the criticisms by occupy wall street six months ago the congress was discussing deficits and cutting all

sorts of programs there was no other voice being heard occupy wall street raise the question of economic inequality and the growing gap in in that area and that issue has now rebounded just yesterday in new york times nearly been made because of the area and ok i will agree with you but what so what what's changed ok the bonuses are still being paid well for. you i term if you want me you what's the difference . your view of you know making social changes now like taking an alpha seltzer tablet where you put it in a glass of water it fizzes and you know thirty seconds later you feel better this is about building a movement for change trying to organize people across political lines charles would have to acknowledge that well excuse me charles i was a cutting our archive written a book called occupy and it's about in part bringing together

a burning you know just because one point it has brought together people who consider themselves anarchists socialists libertarians even democrats and a sprinkle of republicans it's not you know it's not movement that has a coherent etiology like the ones in the former soviet union or in the republican. party ok charles you want to. look if you have suppose you have you know just. transfers suppose you have yankees fans all over new york and then it's much it's game day and they come to the stadium and they sit together and then they go home you wouldn't say oh look at this massive american grassroots new yankees fan base you'd say look all of the people who believe that the iraqis should win how are suddenly in the same place and now they've gone home again there's a big difference between this group american radical groups assembling and a movement being built that comprises people who are going to affect real change i

think you're confusing the lighting that's ok bernadine you want to jump in there but i categorically reject i really need to jump in here i category can call it you reject that that way of seeing what's happening i actually wasn't zuccotti park for six weeks i slept in my car and i went to occupy wall street it's true i have had. i don't know what you want to call progressive views for many years but. there are people who have come out of their houses there are people that said oh my gosh i felt hopeless and now i don't feel hopeless there were there were activists like me who felt hopeless and said oh my god thank god thank god finally finally they've come and come together and have decided to give voice it's true there were a lot of activists that all came together many different groups who came who also

came but by and large the activists that i saw the main organizers of occupy wall street they're all twenty five years old they're all twenty five years old when he thinks he's news they well i got it that's just the way i i care about ok what it is my problem let me ask you let me have such a problem with your view ok go ahead danny. grant go ahead you one reason i'm saying the problem i have with with. my problem i have with charles first of all a people have not gone home this movement is growing and it will grow more but beyond that change those not happened necessarily only through the traditional political formats we've had in our country the experience of civil the civil rights movement the antiwar movement massive expressions of outrage with injustice that they would lead to changes and i think occupy wall street will as well i think it's too early you know for you to be quite sure you know i want to ask you

a question so charles can respond to it i mean the occupy wall street nobody's going to get involved in this election year i mean you get behind candidates i mean i'm not i'm trying to be contrarian on purpose here because you have some kind of critical mass but now it has to be translated into the change you're talking about and i don't see that i mean just camping out cannot creating change danny first i'm going to burn again and then charles can i drive all of it going. oh. hold on i want to hear from you too and i'll be happy to do i happy to give you my time right now if you feel the need to respond and let me go ask you go ahead her name that was a real gentleman there and d'amico had burned again. the idea that we're just camping out is just so wrong it's just such a blatant dismissal of everything that has come together i have

spoken to people that never thought that anything was possible to be done and then when the occupies gathered all over the country and all over the world were like oh my god there is something that can be done the power of the people really is greater than the people in power as while gone instead of. them as my experience and seen i haven't seen i haven't seen a movement that in six weeks charles led to demonstrations and protests and over a thousand cities across the world even time magazine no friend of protest movements put the protesters as the person of the year because of the you know way in which you know this movement has resonated with so many people even if it hasn't articulated every demand in every premise of what the activists want this is a work in progress and it is progressing at the sit on the sidelines and snicker at it as if it's having done this and haven't done that really does that

a dis service and sort of is a denial function of cynicism as well as being unduly snarky at an early stage ok charles i mean you want to respond to that i mean i'm i'm trying to be contrarian on purpose ok because i like protests i think it's very good but it is certain point there has to be a critical mass to achieve something and that's why i'm pushing the envelope here i mean you get involved in the elections there's a protest for a protest again i'm just trying to be contrarian you're probably against it charles go right ahead. firstly i like process too but i don't think all process is inherently good and i think it has to have a point secondly this idea that the right is being snarky towards this if you had a lot of this from the president but it's somehow cynical to oppose big government plans or views that differ from your own in terms of ok probably all st. time magazine it's slightly misleading to say they gave it to to occupy wall street they

gave it to the protester a nebulous an abstract form in large part because of the arab spring where people are actually fighting for something which is serious and important and has a name but the idea that this is comparable to the american civil rights movement i think i think the phrase massive protest was used this was not a massive protest and this civil rights movement was marked out because after having protested there was the civil rights act and then a series of pieces of legislation which changed the country how the civil rights like purely consisted of marches it wouldn't have actually done anything and the difference here is that no one has achieved it roger was really charles evenings the cheerleading where is can honestly for the civil rights movement can i let me finish here i was part of the civil rights movement let me let me have my say now here for a minute i was part of the civil rights movement you know if these movements were not you know considered you know to be in some way dangerous you wouldn't have over

six thousand arrests in new york city you would have the militarization of the police department the surveillance that they really the coordination of surveillance by all these cities this is a this is a movement that has freaked out other people in power it's freaked out mayor bloomberg who's a wall street guy and for good reason because of demands it's making for more economic justice and fairness is an issue that has not been raised by our mass media has not been raised by the national review and has really been given the. kind of coverage at the service charles on the road going elsewhere we writes about this. going national he writes about social mobility and inequality of income in almost every issue i suggest you pick up a copy it just doesn't come from the same saw from our conclusions that occupy wall street all right gentlemen and lady i'm going to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the potential new wave of the occupy wall street protests today barchi.

live. science technology innovation all the list i'm elements from around russia we've got the future covered. and you can. listen to. live welcome back to crossfire can you imagine we're talking about the plans for a minute demonstration. live you can. live. ok bernadine i'd like to go back to you in washington i think one of the most interesting slogans or ideas that come out of the demonstrations of the last six months is the ninety nine percent versus one percent and it's actually a cool idea and i think it really makes people stand up and listen about what kind of economy the united states has in the western world in general but how much

longer can you push that without getting results because one can be contrarian and a little cynical and say that's the only thing this movement can agree upon without any specific action because any specific action will divide the movement go ahead. i i can only disagree with almost everything that i said fine well that the ninety nine percent of the one percent is actually was quoted by howard zinn people some people sister in the united states which he actually got from our writing that was from the progressive movement around one thousand nine hundred sixty or ninety nine percent in the one percent was identified then that the beginning of the progressive movement of the last century. the you know that's a great mean but i think there are some people in the one percent that i know there are some people in the one percent that agree with us they agree with our goals they agree with that the the injustice of income disparity what we really want is we want people to pay attention and to rise up which is happened i have talked to

people on the street let me give you one good example i was in i'm staying in fairfax virginia i spoke to i was that the ace hardware and i said oh i just he said what are you doing here from cincinnati and i said well an occupier he goes oh my goodness now this is a guy that works in the ace hardware he gave me a card his card and said please let me put up some protesters because i told him that we were hearing the national articulation of washington people would be coming in from all over the country this is a car that works they start where i started people stop me all the time when i see buttons and they say thank you for doing what you're doing people have come out of their homes people have felt hopeless and now they feel ill maybe there's hope and i don't know where you know all the people in charles now because again be contrary charles if it's ninety nine percent but just vote the bums out and change the laws simple but the ninety nine and one percent is actually extremely good slogan it could have come from madison avenue it's an unfortunate it's not true as many slogans great slogans are firstly because most of the country if you look at it is

it doesn't even know what occupy wall street is and secondly because the reports are that they don't agree with them and i say nine percent are clearly living in some sort of marxist false consciousness for energy and actually destroy her own argument extremely world. she pointed out that this comes from howard zinn and originally knight and six in the original progressive movement these are the things that people have been saying on the left and in liberal progressive circles for almost a hundred years this is not a new idea and every time they've tried to push it they've lost they will continue to lose there's nothing magic about the last ten years the last five years this is a general socialistic way of seeing the world that doesn't tally in america ok danny what do you think about that socialistic way of looking at the world i mean you don't have to be socialist to see inequality go ahead charles charles you know the most people that are criticizing not the socialism of the movement but it's anarchy ism the anarchists. that are part of it you know it's interesting that fox

network i'm sure your favorite t.v. channel is now doing a show called sons of anarchy you know to dramatize all of this there's been no socialist goals and you know calls for justice you know if you think or calls for justice are only being raised by socialists then i wonder why you aren't a socialist because we need more justice in our society i think you're going to wear it with even just even from your own point of view ok charlie's line justice i just reply go ahead but you're also require one fairly high and charles try and large are the words in front of justice you can just say social justice what is not socialistic i want to redistribute wealth nationalized various industries what is not socialistic about that well what's wrong with it either. nobody except you nobody except you is raise the question of nationalization i don't think that is your husband i think it's a monkey in

a national review you're still fighting the last sure charles a you know. it's not true well that you tell me then if massive unemployment which exists in this country homelessness which is growing school systems that are for. apart social service agencies that can't get funding and can't serve the public is not an indication of an economic crime and crisis in our society that people in a society which supposedly believes in equality supposedly believes in fairness and upward mobility we see the reverse going on right now and you don't see it maybe because here from you know some dark corner of of england but i see it and i think many people in america see it and express it just today the new york times for example on another issue is joining that sixty nine percent of the public opposes staying in afghanistan and fighting these wars there's a tremendous amount of disaffection and this satisfaction ok in this country for a leader we're going to reason i didn't you can't label the sort of in washington i

want to go back to ok fine you can mobilize people get people to protest but what about the electoral process i mean is this something you want to stay away from or do you want to win brace because if you are the ninety nine percent then do the math go ahead birdie. the i you know i i don't really think that voting at this point is makes a difference only because the we here we have actually a one party system it's called the business party and we have two factions the democrats and the republicans and you know everything everything comes and all and i said i made up that other day what happened happen ok try to argue that until i was brings up a good point i don't go there just like charles respond only i in here let's there are always going to respond because i was a very interesting point go ahead ok let's suppose for the sake of argument this is not true for them but let's just suppose for the sake of argument but to do that

you're right it's a one party system with two wings called the business party why is it how can these two statements both be true there is one party forward to almost everyone votes and the ninety nine percent are unhappy with it or anyone reply i think i think people feel like. i i i this what i have come to understand is this is where i felt like we really don't have a choice because on an individual basis we can't really change a system but there's a group as people coming together as we the people we can make change and we can make a difference the fact that when you know we don't have really a choice we don't have a viable socialist we don't even have a viable libertarian party i mean how do your own party and libertarian i be at. well you know it doesn't matter we it's very hard to hear over at any given this

very different world ok danny jump in go ahead you know it's very it's it's very difficult as charles knows very well for any third party movements to organize and get on the ballot and fact what the republicans are trying to do in many parts of our countries to get people off the ballot by using these phony voter id fraud laws . is a really. no no this is something this is not even a debate about how it's his eyes things are minorities in the that surround you. it's not if it was so it was if it was so you know putting down minorities than the head of the n.a.c. he would not have had to go to geneva to the united nations human rights council to protest against what's happening in the united states the fact is that parties get get rich you know get very bureaucratic and autocratic and it's difficult and we call good stand to rule money is dominating our political process everybody knows it everybody sees it with these super pacs with billionaires and millionaires

basically dominating campaign finance and so many parts of the country so this country more more more resembles the kind of old guard key that people in russia are protesting against where we see these during the ninety's ninety's maybe during the one nine hundred ninety s. when it was run by oligarchs can i say something you're going to throw out bob if we're going to throw out bombs and meanings i can tell you that i spoke with an ex banker recently and he called what we have in america kleptocracy i thought i thought i was out i was pretty over the top and he said no he said every single day they are stealing from me or ok charles charles and i'm going to tell you i do know he's not in iran and change gears here charles you're dismissive of this movement the occupy wall street movement why is there protesting in the employee is a very obvious that there is there is a lot of anger and you know it's i mean obviously it will be as anyone better to do

you know charles go ahead you know i think. i think that there is a legitimate obstat about what happened with the banks and if you remember this is not just a left wing phenomenon the tea party was formed in in response and interesting the immediately in response to the back by a bank where they didn't wait two years and use that as a hook the tea party quite rightly asked how many in occupy said that this is a country based on free market principles and that was a clear undermining of them now it is there are arguments on both sides i'm going to go for that are untrue first of all that's not true excuse me that's not true you know the tea party has its origins in a rant by this guy rick sam tele on c n b c and what he was complaining about is the possibility that there might be a bailout for people who are about to lose their homes that's what he was mobilizing people against the idea that somebody who has

a mortgage somehow is going to get a special deal and not have to pay the banks back he wasn't really indorsing or embracing a populist position that the party's been funded by the koch brothers it's funded by billionaires it's run by republican politicians that he let's let's be honest the badly this movement is not the movement is is run by the people in it in a democratic manner you know it may not be as efficient as you would like you know but it is a growing movement and it's a movement that's the bating its principles and is standing up for very good principles in terms of american justice and the whole history of moving in the same yes that is equal to the sake of fairness charles let me give you the last word twenty seconds go ahead. you know full well that that is all it's a nonsense about the tea party the tea party is against varies in the degree to which it's policies are anti the buyout but it is against big government and yes of

course there are now groups funding as there have been with occupy wall street but the tea party and occupy wall street have the same father they just have fundamentally different plans one which is to restore the republican other wishes to overthrow a very interesting point thank you very much joe for a very interesting debate many thanks to my guest today in washington and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember crosstalk.

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