look if you look at the top of the. street still. trying to reveal. the soviet files on the. ground thanks for joining us the hour i'm karen taraji with a look at your headlines as the syrian government embraces a u.n. backing peace plan members of the antis saw physicians struggle to come together with a single unified purpose some rebel leaders and walked out on their power rubbles during a conference in turkey designed to rally the opposition. a wave of cold war and a sell job crashes through capitol hill some republican presidential hopefuls jumped on the contents of a private conversation between the leaders of russia and america obama asked me to

vote for more time on issues such as the u.s. missile defense plans after november's election. trouble clashes in libya lead to the resignations of a few n.p.c. members over concerns that the interim government can't control the country's ongoing violence at least fifty people have died during clashes in the past two days. up next cross talk of peter lavelle looking at what's ahead for the occupy wall street protest movement six months after it was born stay with us. live. lives. can start.

to. flow in welcome across time futile about with the arrival of spring occupy wall street protesters are coming out of their winter hibernation with plans for we new demonstrations six months after the movement was born what has been accomplished if anything and what lies ahead for this undefined in loose knit community of programs. the sooner. you start listening. to cross talk the six month anniversary of the occupy wall street demonstrations i'm joined by bernadine zennie in washington she's a spokesperson for now d.c. in new york we have danny schechter he is a journalist author and independent filmmaker and also in new york we have charles koch he's a writer for the national review all right folks this is crossfire going to as you can jump in any time you want bernie dean bernie and if i can ask you go to you first what has been accomplished in the last six months with the occupy wall street

movement. i think what is that people have thought appropriated their activism they they've really come out and decided to actualize their thoughts and feelings about what's going on in america about the injustice about the disparity of income and power i think pretty much people have have come to really find their voice and find their ability to. ok charles i mean obviously there's been a lot of demonstrations in the last six months and there's been a lot of commentary about it positive and negative as it meant anything is it true in strand slated into anything beyond just a lot of noise i think. if it had it would have caused all the me because i don't agree with their aims but that's a separate question from whether it has or not. and from what i saw i spent an awful lot of time down in zuccotti park covering this in in across new york and

what i saw was people who were previously disparate in thinking what they think coming into one place rather than people who hadn't been involved in politics before suddenly rising up against the status quo i think you'll w.t. protesters and your environmentalists and your radicals all came and sat in one place i don't think people came out of their houses and said now i must do something about this as they did in say the civil rights movement ok danny what do you think about that. well first of all mike check thank you for having me on it look you know of course there's been a big change in the conversation at least in the media and in many of the sectors of our society just i think yes they are reported that wall street firms are admitting at least in a recent survey that their p.r. that their image is now terrible thanks to the assaults on the criticisms play

occupy wall street six months ago the congress was discussing deficits and cutting also lots of programs there was no other voice being heard occupy wall street raise the question of economic inequality and the growing gap in in that area and that issue has now rebounded just yell scale in new york chinese dannie been made because of the myriad oh i would agree with you but what's so what what's changed ok the bonuses are still being paid well for. you i turn if you will you what's the difference. your view of you know making social change is not like taking analogous to a tablet where you put in a glass of water if this is you know thirty seconds later you feel better this is about building a movement for change trying to organize people across political lines and charles would have to acknowledge that well excuse me charles i was in the cutting our archive written a book called occupy and it's about in part bringing together all of the let me

just make this one point it has brought together people who consider themselves and his socialist libertarians even democrats and a sprinkle of republicans it's not you know it's not a movement that has a coherent idiology like the ones in the former soviet union or in the republican. party ok charles you want to go look if you have suppose you have young. person suppose you have yankees fans all over new york and then it's a match it's game day and they come to the stadium and they sit together and then they go home you wouldn't say oh look at this massive american grassroots new yankees fan base you'd say look all of the people who believe that the yankees should win how suddenly in the same place and now they've gone home again there's a big difference between what this american radical groups assembling and

a movement being built comprises people who are going to affect real change i think you're confusing the lighting that's ok bernadine you want to jump in there go categorically reject i really need to jump in here i category clerical if you reject that that way of seeing what's happening i actually wasn't to college park for six weeks i slept in my car and i went to occupy wall street it's true i have had. i don't know what you want to call progressive views for many years but. there are people who did come out of their houses there are people that said oh my gosh i felt hopeless and now i don't feel hopeless they were there were out of this like me who felt hopeless and said oh my god thank god thank god finally finally they've come and come together and have decided to to give voice it's true there were a lot of activists that all came together many different groups who came who also

came but by and large the add to this that i saw the main organizers of occupy wall street there are twenty five years old they're all twenty five years are also anything is they well i that's that's just the way i i care about ok and i want to ask is my problem did you ask me are you satisfied with your view ok go ahead danny ok. granted i had one reason i'm saying the problem i have with with. my problem i have with charles first of all a people have not gone home this movement is growing and it will grow more but beyond that. change this not happen necessarily only through the traditional political formats we've had in our country the experience of civil the civil rights movement the antiwar movement massive expressions of outrage with injustice that this lead to changes and i think occupy wall street will as well i think it's too

early will for you to be quite so you know i want to ask you a question so charles can respond to it i mean the occupy wall street when you get involved in this election year i mean need to get behind candidates i mean i'm not trying to be contrarian on purpose here because you have some kind of critical mass but now it has to be translated into the change you're talking about and i don't see that i mean just camping out to not creating change danny first of all go to burnaby and then charles can i do i have it go ahead. oh. hold on i want to hear from you to it and i'll be happy to do i happy to give you my time right now if you feel the need to urgently respond and let me go ask you cook a bernstein that was a real gentleman there and d'amico had burnaby. the the the idea that we're just camping out is just so wrong it's just such a blatant. missile of everything that has come together i have

spoken to people that never thought that anything was possible to be done and then when the occupies all over the country and all over the world were like oh my god there is something it can be done the power of the people really is greater than the people in power as wild. and as my experience i mean seen i haven't seen i haven't seen a movement that in six weeks charles led to demonstrations and protests and over a thousand cities across the world even time magazine no friend of protest movements put the protesters as the person of the year because of the you know way in which you know this movement has resonated with so many people even if it hasn't articulated every demand in every premise of what the activists want this is a work in progress and it is progressing and to sit on the sidelines and snicker at

it as if it's a have it done this and haven't done that really does that at this service and sort of is a denial function of cynicism as well as being unduly snarky i don't early stage ok charles i mean you want to respond to that i mean i'm i'm trying to be contrarian on purpose ok as i like protest i think it's very good but it is certain point there has to be a critical mass to achieve something and that's why i'm pushing the envelope here i mean you get involved in the elections there's a protest or a protest i'm get i'm just trying to be contrarian you're probably against it charles go right ahead. firstly i like process too but i don't think all process is inherently good and i think it has to have a point secondly this idea that the right is being snarky towards this is you know you hear a lot of this from the president that it's somehow cynical to oppose big government plans or views that differ from your own in terms of occupy wall street. time magazine it's slightly misleading to say they gave it to occupy wall street they

gave it to the protester a nebulous an abstract form in large part because of the arab spring where people are actually fighting for something which is serious and important and has a name but the idea that this is comparable to the american civil rights movement i think i think the phrase massive protest was use this was not a massive protest and this civil rights movement was marked out because after having protested there was a civil rights act and then a series of pieces of legislation which changed the country how the civil rights act purely consisted of marches it wouldn't actually done anything and the difference here is that no one has achieved in. the evenings the. can is a story of the civil rights movement try to me finish here i was part of the civil rights movement let me let me have my say now here for a minute i was part of the civil rights movement you know if these movements were not you know considered you know to be in some way dangerous you wouldn't have over

six thousand arrests in new york city you wouldn't have the militarization of the police department the surveillance the passes because really the coordination of surveillance by all these cities this is a this is a movement that has freaked out other people in power it's freaked out mayor bloomberg who's a wall street guy and for good reason because the demands it's making for more economic justice and fairness is an issue that has not been raised by our mass media has not been raised by the national review and has really been given the. kind of coverage at the service charles you don't really want to know sort of a writes about this and you're already going to write some great national he writes about social mobility and inequality of income in almost every issue i suggest you pick up a copy it just doesn't come to the same saw from our conclusions that occupy wall street house all right gentlemen and lady i'm going to jump in here we're going to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the

potential new wave of the occupy wall street protests today that are to. a candy. store. you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so for lang you think you understand it and then something else you hear sees some other part of it and realize that everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm sorry welcome to the big picture.

and you can. imagine crosstalk i'm a little too much we're talking about the plans for the new demonstrations. in egypt. ok byrne again i'd like to go back to you in washington i think one of the most interesting slogans or ideas that come out of the demonstrations of the last six months is the ninety nine percent versus one percent and it's actually a cool idea and i think it really makes people stand up and listen about what kind of economy the united states has in the western world in general but how much

longer can you push that without getting results because one can be contrarian and a little cynical and say that's the only thing this movement can agree upon without any specific action because any specific action will divide the movement go ahead. i i i can only disagree with on the vine well that the ninety nine percent of the one percent is actually was quoted by howard zinn people some people's history of the united states which he actually got from writing that was from the progressive movement around one thousand nine hundred sixty or ninety nine percent in the one percent was identified then at the beginning of the progressive movement at the last century. the you know that's a great mean but i think there are some people in the one percent that i know there are some people who in the one percent that agree with us they agree with our goals they agree with the the injustice of income disparity what we really want is we want people to pay attention and to rise up which has happened i have talked to

people on the street let me give you one good example i was in i'm staying in fairfax virginia i spoke to i was that the ace hardware and i said oh i just he said what are you doing here from cincinnati and i said well i'm an occupier he goes oh my goodness now this is a guy that works in the ace hardware he gave me a card his card and said please let me put up some protesters because i told him that we were having the national articulation of washington people would be coming in from all over the country this is a car that works with ace hardware i saw i had people stop me all the time when i see buttons and they say thank you for doing what you're doing people have come out of their homes people have felt hopeless and now they feel whole maybe there's hope and i don't see where you know all the people of charles now because again be contrarian charles if it's ninety nine percent but just vote the bums out of change the laws simple well the ninety nine and one percent is actually extremely good slogan i could've come from madison avenue it's an unfortunate it's not true as many slogans great slogans are firstly because most of the country if you look at

this it doesn't even know what occupy wall street is and secondly because the reports are that they don't agree with them and ninety nine percent are clearly living in some sort of marxist false consciousness bernadino actually destroyed her own argument extremely world. she pointed out that this comes from howard zinn and originally night in the sticks in the original progressive movement these are the things that people have been saying on the left and in liberal progressive circles for almost a hundred years this is not a new idea and every time they've tried to push it they've lost they will continue to lose there's nothing magical about the last ten years the last five years this is a general socialistic way of seeing the world that doesn't tally in america ok danny what do you think about that socialistic way of looking at the world i mean you don't have to be a socialist to see any quality go ahead charles you know the most people are criticizing not the socialism of the movement but it's anarchists i'm the anarchists. that are part of it you know it's interesting that fox network i'm sure

your favorite t.v. channel is now doing a show called sons of anarchy you know to dramatize all of this there is no socialist goals but you know a call for justice you know if you think calls for justice are only being raised by socialists then i wonder why you aren't a socialist because we need more justice in our society i think you agree marriage with just even from your own point of view ok charlie's line justice i want you to join us here if i go ahead which are also require one fairly high and charles brian large putting the words in front of justice you can't just say social justice what is not socialistic i want to redistribute wealth nationalized various industries what is not socialistic about that well what's wrong with it either. nobody except you nobody except you is raise the question of nationalization i don't think that is your husband i think there's

a monkey in the national review you're still fighting the last true war charles a you know. it's not true well that you tell me then if massive unemployment which exists in this country homelessness which is growing school systems that are for. apart social service agencies that can't get funding and can't serve the public is not an indication of an economic crime and crisis in our society that people in a society which supposedly believes in equality supposedly believes in fairness and upward mobility we see the reverse going on right now and you don't see it maybe because you're from you know some dark corner of of england but i see it and i think many people in america see it and express it just today the new york times for example on another issue is showing that sixty nine percent of the public opposes staying in afghanistan and fighting these wars there's a tremendous amount of disaffection and this satisfaction ok in this country for

later we're going to reason i didn't you can't label loser in washington i want to go back to ok fine you can mobilize people get people to protest but what about the electoral process i mean is this something you want to stay away from or do you want to win brace because if you are the ninety nine percent then do the math go ahead. the i you know i i don't really think that voting at this point is makes a difference only because the we here we have actually a one party system it's called the business party and we have two factions the democrats and the republicans and you know everything everything carbonneau and i said i mean that i'll go what happened happened ok charles you know you never knew i was brings up a good point i don't know much else respond only i in here let's let our audience know i just respond because i was a very interesting point go ahead ok let's suppose for the sake of argument this is

not true for a member let's just suppose for the sake of argument going to do that you're right it is a one party system with two wings called the business party why is it how can these two statements both be true there is one party for which almost everyone votes and the ninety nine percent are unhappy with it but again you want to reply i think i think people feel like you always i i i this what i have come to understand is this is where i felt like we really don't have a choice because on an individual basis we can't really change a system but as a group as people coming together as we the people we can make change and we can make a difference the fact that we you know we don't have really a choice we don't have a viable socialist we don't even have a viable libertarian party i really have your own party and libertarian i'd be happy. well you know it doesn't matter we're very hostile here although to be given

the salient thirty different oh ok danny jump in go ahead you know it's very it's it's very difficult as charles knows very well for any third party movements to organize and get on the ballot and in fact what the republicans are trying to do in many parts of our countries to get people off the ballot by using these phony voter id fraud laws. is a really. no no this is something this is not even a debate about how this is nice things for minorities in the historic you. it's not if it was so it was if it was so you know putting down minorities in the head of the n.a.c. people would not have had to go to geneva to the united nations human rights council to protest against what's happening in the united states the fact is that parties get get rich you know get very bureaucratic and autocratic and it's difficult and the incumbents tend to rule and money is dominating our political

process everybody knows it everybody sees it with these super pacs with billionaires and millionaires basically dominating campaign finance and so many parts of the country so this country more more and more resembles the kind of old guard he that people in russia protesting against were. during the ninety's ninety's maybe during the one nine hundred ninety s. when it was run by our guards can i say something you're going to if you're going to throw out bob if we're going to throw out problems then and me i can tell you that i spoke with an ex banker recently and he called what we have in america kleptocracy i thought that i thought i was i was pretty over the top and he said no he said every single day they are stealing from me ok charles charles we can find you i do know he's not in iran and change gears here charles you're dismissive of this movement the occupy wall street movement why is there protest then in the boy is a very obviously is there is

a lot of anger and you know it's i mean obviously it will be as anyone better to do you know charles you know i think. i think that there is a legitimate upset about what happened with the banks remember this is not just a left wing phenomenon the tea party was formed in response and interestingly immediately in response and about by a bank where they didn't wait two years and use it as a hook the tea party quite rightly asked it was a million occupy have said that this is a country based on free market principles and that was a clear undermining of them now it is there are arguments on both sides i'm going to go because i understand who first of all that's not true excuse me that's not true you know the tea party has its origins in a rant by this guy rick sam tele on c n b c and what he was complaining about is the possibility that there might be a bailout for people who are about to lose their homes that's what he was

mobilizing people against the idea that somebody who has the mortgage somehow is going to get a special deal and not have to pay the banks back he wasn't really indorsing or embracing a populist position the tea party's been funded by the koch brothers it's funded by billionaires it's run by republican politicians that he let's be honest the validly this movement is not the occupy movement is is run by the people in it in a democratic manner you know it may not be as efficient as you would like you know but it is a growing movement and it's a movement that's bating its principles and is standing up for very good principles in terms of american justice and the whole history of the movement exaggerating the innocent yes the deceit. of the sake of fairness charles i'm going to be the last word twenty seconds go ahead. you know full well that that is not so known since about the tea party the tea party is against other it varies in the degree to which its. policies i'm seated by about but it is against big government and yes of

course there are now groups funding it as there have been with occupy wall street and the tea party and occupy wall street have the same father they just have fundamentally different plans one which is to restore the republican the other wishes to overthrow a very interesting point thank you very much joe for a very interesting debate many thanks to my guest today in washington and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember across. the. street.

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