eleven thirty am in moscow these iraqi headlines fueling under fire are fueling the fire as un mediators struggle to get warring sides in syria to negotiate london vows to keep cash flowing to the rebels in their fight against damascus dozens of u.s. allies expected to commit even more support to the opposition at an international conference sunday. the recent shooting rampage by a french gunman interludes draws a presidential candidates in his fierce pre-election rhetoric over extremism and immigration. actions being used by some far right candidates to attack france's

immigration policy. spain's prime minister set to announce a new round of austerity measures a day after a nationwide strike led to violence between protesters and police cuts are aimed at saving the country tens of billions of euros. next cross-talk continues to cover the syrian issue does the west still harbor plans for foreign intervention that's up next stay with us. the key. is to. blow him welcome across town people about

serious divides as the peace plan for syria gains international support worries remain that is only a lull before the civil war in the country resumes with greater intensity and violence on all sides because the west and its allies in the region still harbor plans for another humanitarian intervention. can. still. cross not the new peace plan for syria i'm joined by herbert lunden in new york he is president emeritus of the hudson institute in brussels we go to someplace mo he is a writer and author of humanitarian imperialism and in london we have lindsey german she is the convener of the british anti-war organization stop the war coalition all right folks this is cross i mean you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encouraged her but if i go to you first in new york what's your sense of kofi annan peace plan for syria is it a beginning or is it a dead end post probably a dead end largely because the civil war is likely to go on saddam has engaged in

murderous activities thousands of people have lost their lives it's a terrible situation the problem however is what is the aftermath if in fact assad is deposed what actually occurs is the muslim brotherhood that takes over and yet it gets yet another foot half foot the put lock in and that part of the world or in fact does do the democratic forces emerge there are a lot of competing interests russia obviously has a warm water port in syria and would like to see. see the retention of assad you have the chinese playing a role there as well so it's a very very complicated situation where senator mccain has called for military action on the part of the united states and its allies i doubt very much whether that will occur in large part because we are very much concerned about what happens after assad if indeed there is an after assad ok here and i'm glad you're thinking about the aftermath because that's what i always think about lucy if i can go to you i mean the peace process there if we can recall the peace process it least there is the interest to get the indigenous parties on the ground or start talking

it may be too late but a lot of people would say and myself included it's never too late to try to talk well as the civil war rages on and i might also point out react to her body russia is also interested in international law which keep libya in mind so go ahead lisa lindsay go ahead lindsey go right ahead what i felt i think the the problem here is that the intervention is already under why you can't really look at what's happening in syria without looking at all sorts of things that have happened in recent months the attempts to broker one the opposition force the syrian national council which has happened this week the various attempts in sanctions which of them made the covert intervention on the ground. against the syrian army and against assad and i thought i think the real problem here i don't think the kofi annan peace process is going to be. effective really my real

very strong feeling is this is not something that is the business of the united states britain and the western powers when we talk about in the aftermath in syria we should remember we do have something to transcribe we've seen what's happened in iraq we've seen what's happened in afghanistan these have been disasters by any standards and the idea libya which was only last year. which is perhaps the most directly comparable you see fantastic levels of corruption of destruction of the country the idea of democracy and progress that really very very far from being a change what's going to change this regime change and it is not the business of the united states or anybody else to effect from. people who should be able to do this or the people of the country themselves occasionally referring to you in brussels here lindsey's already hold on what's going it's going to be let's go to

brussels first ok lindsay says an intervention has already started so maybe the peace plan is really just kind of a piece of paper i mean there is an intention it is an intention and we we've already heard from hillary clinton the u.s. secretary of state she doesn't care what assad has to say she cares about what he does and if he doesn't do what she wants then regime change is still in the cards go ahead. yes well i think first of all you have to put that in the broader context i think there's been a sort of madness that has taken over a certain number of western elites after the fall of the wall and the victory in the cold war sort of this innocent success which has given the ideas of who they lead the whole framework of international law which has sort of peace after world war two and less big is actually on the lessons of world war two namely the framework of the united nations the united nations charter the quality of all nations the seven equals zero and fearful nation was something to be put in the dustbin of history and they have started that in yugoslavia they've continued in

afghanistan in iraq in libya in somalia it's a car and they are spread disaster after disaster in my opinion and of course like all invaders they provide the they provoke a counter force and now the approval to counter force which seems to exist in syria we just don't be through the resistance of your hands crushing china today or germany or in a lot of latin america today of germany goes in eighteen that we need resistance and eventually they'll be docked ladywell block in vietnam like israel has been blocked by hezbollah in lebanon and this is maybe the endgame for the humanitarian intervention is and i think it's a very good thing because we'll go back to more stable world based on the international law negotiation and not the unity of all use of force by people who sell courtin themselves defenders of human rights and i think it's fitting actually that good napoleon hitler were still very harsh and now it seems a cursory stopping germany gleams of the united states ok herbert i see you smiling

what kind of smile is there going well i'm smiling because it's a rather produced view of recent history in fact it was not international law or the united nations to maintain equilibrium after world war two it was united states navy if you're talking about the relative peace of the pattern world we've had relative peace because of us. intervention you might call it imperialism i would call it a part of the role that the united states is playing and maintaining a balance and we wish to see you know where all these non-indigenous or lazy asians also. mention in the least the united states plays a very significant role in maintaining the kind of peace that you would like to see even in iraq all this is your focus is doing. the scene was making the rounds of all this leaves me heard open up a can of worms here lindsay you first go ahead. the problem is this if you talk to most iraqis and after all many iraqis at the time of saddam hussein many of the

market there should be intervention because this would get rid of a dictator and that was what they wanted virtually nobody in iraq will say the thing has been a success is below after failure the troops had to leave the british troops left several years ago the american troops have now left for the most have left the country and they've left a totally broken country they are now quite incredibly trying to do the same again both in syria and in my view even more dangerously in the wrong and you know what you have to recognize that this view the whole of world peace has been down for the americans is a holds with what millions of people around the world really think is not an accurate description of the end of the second world war it's not an accurate description of the post-war period where america was involved in the most bloody and damaging war in viet nam virtually nobody defends that war today and he has

played an absolute destructive for all in the middle east backing dictators going into care it was a war zone and it still but is still quite states's that is the truth the arab league and the gulf cooperation council are composed of people who are very quick to attack because after your ass who are perfectly happy to to repress their own people using my. ok zhang go to him in brussels you want to riyadh your family never heard occasion of history let me go to this monstrous difference where to begin with before the program started i said fair time for everyone john go ahead where you have to count the millions of that in the american intervention in. southeast asia in southern africa india the embargo against iraq the interventions they can date you over and also to take into account the overthrow of most i think was the democratic leader of the hand which started all the variable history of scenes builders talk of our brains in guatemala we started which blocked the

forms in latin america the overthrow of again the which is another way to look reform that they are doing now which are various that they've been blocking reformist and democratic reform that's everywhere the good we have of their imperialist in this but with those reforms so it seems to me that the united states has been quite the opposite of. maintaining peace because in the main these days of good they actually by we've seen war and in they actually very potent here and again it's very early let me just let me jump in here but i want to support for israel in the middle east which is going to mean ok we did a little after getting up to ninety three was getting a little half trolly charlies we're getting a little after we heard what is the west's interests in syria and we keep reading this all the time what is the interest is there another word for iran i don't think that the west has any specific interest in syria except that

a defeat of assad would also be a defeat of iran it's interesting that in the conversations that take place with the united states seeing the villain in this interpretation of this rather naive interpretation of history iran hasn't been mentioned nor has of course nine eleven been mentioned the united states was attacked on nine eleven we responded to that attack but let me let me go one of the i may have the the interest. we have to see that you responded to seeing the reason that he is a serial and those murderous activities have gone on for months per year if not longer now it seems to me that the united states is acting out of humanitarian desire to see this send this does not mean that we will engage in direct military intervention as i suggested despite the fact that senator mccain and others have suggested we do so so i think it's perfectly clear that we have an interest in seeing assad ousted we also have an interest in seeing stability occur after assad is rude how that stability will occur remains to be seen will it be a democratic will there be democratic impulses i doubt it the muslim brotherhood is

well organized to take control of the country ok maybe. for me briefly is the leader of order here is what i need what have you here you speak of this is really what if the muslim brotherhood does come to power in syria democratically then we have to accept the outcome right herbert exactly and this is really the matter is what are you saying if you don't like the current government in syria but you tell potential future government in syria and other words this isn't about democracy it's knows about well the syrian people themselves well it's about what the americans want and that is not acceptable and people say no that's not what you heard from the one that let me learn that even three thousand three thousand i'm going to chime in here i'm going to do a short break comment and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the situation in syria the state party.

if. it was the fourth quarter. of. this history still keeps secrets but it's time to reveal the human beings the soviet files on oxy.

something to view what is happening for instance now is the you know the after fighting for a while the fights of the doubt however i totally disagree i don't even think the point to that. we are still waiting for the axe to a revolution to happen. take. a listen. welcome back to the past i'm curious about remind you we're talking about the possible outcome of the syrian peace plan. can. live. ok i'd like to go back to brussels and i think if i were to rename this program from crosstalk i would call it the law of unintended consequences because

that's what this program has been about for about a year now looking at the arab spring what is the law of unintended consequences going out going on now in syria with western backing of these various opposition groups very murky and when i point out that human rights watch and other human rights groups are saying the opposition is could be committing atrocities as well so i mean the good guy bad guy thing is very unclear john go right ahead. first of all you have to be fair about who he said taking whom history did not start on nine eleven two thousand and one when bin laden was justifying nine eleven you say we thank you because you have been attacking us for eighty years in palestine by the colonization of palestine you should never forget that and the support for west on these positions of the palestinians from their lands i mean that's a major crime that is not focused in that part of the world they are interventions all over the place and the us is still concerned with democrats he weighed only preaching to the saudi friends of the gulf states. we today highlight it in syria i mean this is this is

a joke this concern for the locals here we have seen their concern for the most because he waiting eighteen states and like america from guatemala and to. chile to . chavez in venezuela to this and the. ship in the cargo it's a car i mean they undermine democracy whenever they don't like you can they support the dictatorship when they go they like it like this you put it this show if you can i mean this is this is all talk about democracy and human rights from the from the president it's too stupid too he can use four words so one has to be ok he said i think i generally think you can be a danger more recent you major avoid beer and i should emerge herbert i'm not going to have anything i mean again the law of unintended consequences because united states is allied with well al-qaeda right now in syria very interesting. you know her go ahead you know your little you heard in new york i had like the look i mean the possibility of trying to understand what is happening in the world

occurs when you have a kind of left wing agenda of the kind of we just heard when you're talking about the palestinians for example keeping in mind that this area that we now call the palestinian area was once part of jordan it's not the one nine hundred sixty seven years really focus and i don't want to hear that hollywood sign is really going on so you know there's probably sky i want to state i did serious i want to see let me syria ok and then also. some polish are you going to say you have a guess we should really try to be clear we're getting off topic real or let me talk about you a ok when you see lindsay going sorry i'll plead nolo idea what you say ok. can we stay with syria ok go ahead where are we losing game point my point is sorry you can carry on well my point is that actually the unintended consequences of the war in iraq have been in my opinion to far want to strengthen

iran which was not what the americans intended when they went to war but actually it's been the consequence of a. saddam hussein secondly to the help to trigger off the arab spring and now what you're finding is that the intervention in syria is very much related to those two things it's related to trying to weaken iran in the region the wrong is to tap directly first or whether syria is it seems to me that both of them are in the sights of of the united states and of and of their allies is also an attempt to regain control of the region after the overthrow of progress and the taters in chimneys iraq and egypt and that's what that's what libya was about that is what the intervention in syria is about and i would say again i found it quite incredible that herbert thinks the united states does have

a right to tell the rest of the world what to do why i didn't dream of prague the way i need to see him to when jerry illusions i mean this case is you know i was really rather you know i went from all order. up ok when she addressed a question to herbert herbert go ahead. i want to i want to tell you why garbage is plants number go ahead i never use the i never use the expression that the united states has a right i'm simply or exercising a somewhat different judgment at the united states has very often played a role in maintaining equilibrium but let me make another point about syria if i may be the opposition forces in syria i'm not at all clear it may be true that al-qaeda is playing a role it is not only al-qaeda there are a number of forces that represent the opposition in syria so when you're talking about the united states supporting al-qaeda the united states i don't see forming i'd say we're working with the lessons that i heard of in syria i am side of i didn't say working with on the same side i said that the opposition forces in syria

represent a number of different interests and it is not simply al-qaeda that's the only point that i'm making when you're talking about libya the result of you remains uncertain we're not entirely clear about what the result will be so for the judgment to be made that we know exactly what has happened is not at all accurate ok joe we know that we know that the answer in the caves apart from causing we all got in and that's the only thing on this ng that was included in there where john geoghan in brussels. where you see it's too easy also to speak of the west because the west is divided has always been degraded there are the new conservative forces and the police forces and a certain number of human rights people who want to wage war and create international law and destroy it and national but there are people who are quite a different opinion for example wilkerson who was the former head of chief of staff of colin powell's said recently. on the news network he said that he

considered mcinnis completely completely insane this idea of going to war with syria and there being the general mattis for example who is the head of the central command has already said that they can call is not feasible to have an intervention in syria because of the anti-missile defense of. their great question when i was also to be very careful about the news that are given by the western media about syria because there are lots of facts which you can prove have been for as they have been demonstration in hama where somebody a knew was there any county a few thousand people he took pictures and everything published them and the media reported five hundred thousand people which are certain of those who announce that there's been a mystery like in the headquarter of the bad party in the last and i have a picture of somebody standing in front the next day we could newspaper printed the next day in front of those headquarter ensuring that the new search me say that i can and that's why i suppose they don't i'll just see iran and all the western media there are several examples of media lies about syria which would make us

careful about what we know about the kountry we don't know much about their kountry we have no right when you're younger you are hearing national committees against the feeling their mission comedian really has majority of people in the world against that and that's what i want to defend her but you know one of the things that really bothers me is that right i agree with your concern about the outcome ok maybe how we get there maybe that's where we differ but you know when the united states or other western powers say assad must go it's pretty hard to backtrack a backtrack on that isn't it. i think indeed indeed it is and as has been asserted just a moment ago when our point that i agree with is that the media by and large has not really represented the issues very effectively by and large you do get a bias there and so i think it's very difficult to determine exactly what's going on but the cliff assertion to international law i regard as some odd absurd i mean international law to whom the united states or for russia to rand was involved in international law and under what circumstances this is

a nation that actually observed it's not at all clear and i mean what are we referring to whose international law is it the united nations or is it nato what are we referring to in this i mean it's a kind of a dissertation knowing these are very insulting it's almost not meaning i don't think he i don't know he that the international noise for god and i don't think he that you're about to commute to the middle of the world the only question will be the unintended consequence is the question is whether it's legal or not and he's clearly not legal can intervene in that affair or syria they say no you and his regime and the only one is legal solution and they won't be enemies of the nation because they need to us violating the it's own u.n. resolution in the case of libya and the russia and china doesn't we don't want to be taken for harried once more and i hate to. lindsey please jump in here because well when we exactly and the russians also have an interest in syria well i mean russia also doesn't want his regime tirades really do that mean that is ok no one wants to see the whole region in lieu of lindsay go ahead with this and this whole

question of who's international law and then tells us to determine international night i was in the presence of force which is increasingly variances in phases of war there is a policy of international law which is against regime which is against offensive for this is absolutely clear since the second no clue on the u.n. is part of that now but the truth is this this idea that somehow you can just make up is that will we had this with tony blair and. iraq we had it again over libya. as jones says the. the the resolution when with authorize any action which people agreed was far exceeded and then did a regime change which was not which was not the case so we have to look at this we have to look at what is going on here and there is more i'll give you an example of their own or more of these wars going on look afghanistan is

a disaster everybody everybody knows this is not going to hold for twenty forty because the afghan soldiers who are supposed to be trained up to be the replacement for the americans and the british and so on are killing the american and british soldiers to british soldiers killed or killed this week over a result things which every single one of these if you look only was going on you have to say there are failure ok how afghanistan william adams i know i said what i want i want to be fair i don't care what i think are going to throw around by saying i want to be fair to everyone in time herbert you get the last word or bert gets the last word go ahead ok well look let me just make one very simple point about international or if i may when we talk about international law and you refer of course of the united states being very much concerned about an iran with nuclear weapons having a profound influence on both the politics as well as the military affairs in the middle east international law suggests anticipatory self-defense is a very appropriate law it is

a war of international law and yet interestingly what about those new evidence is really bad what we talk about is violations of international law clearly there is a role israel is the only can make any claim italy has could not. use merely when your weapon white a legitimate nation didn't need nuclear weapons to be behind seems to me that if you're talking about international law to be fair about your analysis all right thank you whom i mean the issue of human issues i am a very new i definition of cross talk means thank you all very much many thanks and i guess for me in brussels new york in line. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here you see you next time and remember across top roles. in the first place to keep. the flame. you can think you want to play.

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