thank you. with thank you. live from moscow this is our t.v. time for your headlines now when you are going for a live pictures here now as injuries are reported as police and protesters collide violence escalates and checkpoints separately in ramallah and jerusalem as thousands mark the annual land day security forces are using tear gas and rubber bullets to disperse the protesters again these are live pictures from a checkpoint in the golan heights on the israeli syrian border it would appear that the marching palestinians with flags in the year have been dispersed and moved

along the road where we can see the security forces in abundance and we continue to monitor the situation with our. live in the region here on the cards. fueling the fire as u.n. mediators struggle to get the warring sides in syria to negotiate london val's to keep the cash flowing to the rebels in their fight against damascus dozens of u.s. allies are expected to commit even more support the opposition an international conference on sunday. the recent shooting rampage carried out by a french gunman into lose draws presidential candidates in two fierce pre-election rhetoric over extremism and immigration. actions are being used by some of the far right candidates to attack france's immigration policies. spain's prime minister is set to announce a new wave of austerity measures one day after a nationwide strike led to violence between protesters and police the cuts are

aimed at saving the country tens of billions of euros. that's now the focus of cross talk of syria you're watching us here. can't. blow him welcome across town peter lavelle serious divides as the peace plan for syria gains international support worries remain it is only a lull before the civil war in the country resumes with greater intensity and violence on all sides because the west and its allies in the region still harbor

plans for another humanitarian intervention. came. across not the new peace plan for syria i'm joined by herbert lunden in new york he is president emeritus of the hudson institute in brussels we go to someplace mon he is a writer and author of humanitarian imperialism and in london we have lindsey german she is the convener of the british anti-war organization stop the war coalition right folks this is cross i mean you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encouraged her but if i go to you first in new york what's your sense of kofi annan peace plan for syria is it a beginning or is it a dead end post probably a dead end largely because the civil war is likely to go on saddam has engaged in murderous activities thousands of people have lost their lives it's a terrible situation the problem however is what is the aftermath if in fact assad is deposed what actually occurs is the muslim brotherhood that takes over and yet

it gets yet another put have put their foot walk in and that part of the world or in fact does do the democratic forces emerge there are a lot of competing interests russia obviously has a warm water port in syria and would like to see. see the retention of our side you have the chinese playing a role there as well so it's a very very complicated situation where senator mccain has called for military action on the part of the united states and its allies i doubt very much whether that will occur in large part because we are very much concerned about what happens after assad if indeed there is an after assad ok here and i'm glad you're thinking about the aftermath because that's what i always think about lindsey if i can go to you i mean the peace process there if we can be called a peace process it least there is interest to give the indigenous parties on the ground to start talking it may be too late but a lot of people would say and myself included it's never too late to try to talk well as the civil war rages on and i might also point out to react to her body russia is also interested in international law which keep libby in mind to go ahead

reasoning to go ahead lindsey go right ahead what i said i think the the problem here is that the intervention is already under while you can't really look at what's happening in syria without looking at all sorts of things that have happened in recent months the attempts to broker one the opposition force with the syrian national council which has happened this week the various attempts at sanctions which of them made the covert intervention on the ground. against the syrian army and against our side and i thought i think the real problem here i don't think the kofi annan peace process is going to be at all effective collide really my real very strong feeling is this is not something that is the business of the united states britain and the other western powers that when we talk about all

of the math in syria we should remember we do have something to judge by we've seen what's happened in iraq we've seen what's happened in afghanistan these have been disasters by any standards and the idea libya which was only last year. which is perhaps the most directly comparable or you see fantastic levels of corruption of destruction of the country the idea of democracy and progress that really very very far from being a change what's going to change this regime change and it is not the business of the united states or anybody else to affect free. will who should be able to do this or the people of the country themselves occasionally referring to you in brussels here lindsay's already hold on what's good it's going to be let's go to brussels first ok lindsay says an intervention has already started so maybe the peace plan is really just kind of a piece of paper i mean there is an intention it is an intention and we we've already heard from hillary clinton the u.s. secretary of state that she doesn't care what assad has to say she cares about what

he does and if he doesn't do which she wants then regime change is still in the cards go ahead. yes well i think first of all you have to put that in the context i think there's been a sort of madness that has taken over a certain number of western elites after the fall of the wall in the in the cold war was sort of this in this with success which has given the ideas of those elite that the whole framework of international law we just get so of peace after world war two and us big is actually on the lessons of world war two namely the framework of the united nations the united nations charter the equality of all nations the seven equals until full nation was something to be put in the dustbin of history and they have started that in yugoslavia they've continued in afghanistan in iraq in libya and somalia it's a car and they are spread disaster after disaster in my opinion and of course like all invaders they provide the they provoke

a counter force and now the approval to counter force which seems to exist in syria which is the beast of the resistance of your hands crushing china today or germany of a lot of latin america today when he goes in eighteen they will meet resistance and eventually they'll be docked ladywell block in vietnam like israel has been blocked by hezbollah in lebanon and this is maybe the endgame for the humanitarian intervention is making that's a very good thing because we'll go back to more stable world based on the international law negotiation and not the unity of all use of force by people who self proclaimed themselves defenders of human rights and it's a fitting actually that good the pulley and the hitler were still very harsh and now it seems that russia is stopping germany dreams of the night it's really ok herbert i see you smiling what kind of smile is there go ahead well i'm smiling because it's a rather produce you were part of recent history in fact it was not international law or the united nations to maintain equilibrium after world war two it was united

states navy if you're talking about the relative peace of the padna world we've had relative peace because of us. intervention you might call it imperialism i would call it a part the role that the united states is playing in maintaining a balance on the world see these are you a role he's not in business he has a seizure it's also true in the us military action is in the east the united states plays a very significant role in maintaining the kind of peace that you would like to see even in iraq for you this is your focus is doing sharia law in the house are enormous and maybe the elder i suppose liaison plays herbert opened up a can of worms here lindsay you first go ahead. we the problem is that if you talk to most iraqis and after all many iraqis at the time of saddam hussein many of them are key there should be intervention because this would get rid of a dictator and that was what they wanted virtually nobody in iraq will say the thing has been a success has been a lot of failure the troops had to leave the british troops there several years ago

the american troops have now left for the most part of have left the country and they've left a totally broken country they are now quite incredibly trying to do the same again both in syria and in my view even more dangerously in the wrong and you know hope that you have to recognize that this view. the whole of world peace has been done for the americans is a holds with what millions of people around the world really think and is not an accurate description of the end of the second world war it's not an accurate description of the post-war period where america was involved in the most bloody and damaging war in vietnam virtually nobody defends that war today and he has played an absolute instructor for all in the middle east backing dictators going in to get resources and it still bites is still bites dictators that is for the the arab league and the gulf cooperation council are composed of people who are very

quick to attack. who are perfectly happy to to repress their own people using western loans to ok shankar him in brussels you want to react usually made her decision of history let me just run some restructuring the very beginning of the program started i said fair time for everyone john go ahead you have to guarantee millions of the in the american intervention in southeast asia in southern africa india the embargo against iraq the interventions very. also to take into account the overthrow of mr dacre was a democratic leader of. which started all the variable history of the hannibal scenes the overthrow of our bands in guatemala i wish. we broke the we do a forms in latin america the overthrow of again the which is another we can look at form of the other now which are very is that they've been blocking a reformist and democratic reform everywhere they could wherever they're. at odds

with those reforms so it seems to me that the united states has been quite the opposite of. maintaining peace because in the main these days of good they actually they weaken war and then they actually break her will come here and again it's very early let me just let me jump in here but i want to turn the bates is there in the middle east which is going to mean ok we're getting a little off that they're getting awfully hot e.q. is getting a little half colleagues on larry's we're getting a little off topic herbert what is the west's interest in syria i we keep reading this on the time what is the interest is there another word for iran i don't think that the west has any specific interest in syria except that a defeat of assad would also be a defeat of iran it's interesting that in the conversations that take place with the united states seeing the villain in this interpretation of this rather naive interpretation of history iran hasn't been mentioned nor has of course nine eleven

been mentioned the united states was attacked on nine eleven we responded to that attack but let me let me go on if i may the the interest here to see that you responded to seeing the result that he believes in syria at the end those murderous activities have gone on for months per year if not longer now it seems to me that the united states is acting out of humanitarian desire to see this send this does not mean that we will engage in direct military intervention as i suggested despite the fact that senator mccain and others have suggested we do so so i think it's perfectly clear that we have an interest in seeing assad ousted we also have an interest in seems to belittle occur after a. as rude how that stability will occur remains to be seen will it be a democratic will there be democratic impulses i doubt it the muslim brotherhood is well organized to take control of the country ok maybe. a little early for military families time later or years ago when i knew what he was making want to listen to

out of iran like what if that of muslim brotherhood does come to power in syria democratically then we have to accept the outcome right herber exactly the way the matter is how but what you saying is you don't like the current government in syria but you don't like the potential future government in syria and the other was this isn't about tomorrow say it's most about what the syrian people themselves well it's about what the americans want unlike is more acceptable than people that say no no that's not how i want universal laws that look let me learn that even for a thousand francs thousand i'm going to chime in here i'm going to have to wear short break comment and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the situation in syria stay arctic. if. you want.

world. technology innovation all the rest of bellemont around russia we've done the future coverage. we've. come. to the. if you. still. want to. welcome back to pass time about three months you were talking about the possible outcome of the syrian peace plan. can.

still live. ok i'd like to go back to brussels and join think if i were to rename this program from cross-talk i would call it the law of unintended consequences because that's what this program has been about for about a year now looking at the arab spring what is the law of unintended consequences going out going on now in syria with western backing of these various opposition groups very murky and when i should point out that human rights watch and other human rights groups are saying the opposition is could be committing atrocities as well so i mean the good guy bad guy thing is very unclear john go right ahead. well first of all you have to be fair about who we said taking whom history did not start on nine eleven two thousand and one when bin laden was justifying nine eleven we say we thank you because you attack us and you have been attacking us for eighty years in palestine by the colonization of palestine you should never forget that and this reporter west disposition of the very thing and from their lands i mean

that's a major crime that is not to get in their path of the world going their vengeance all over the place if the u.s. is so concerned with democracy wait only preaching to the saudi friends of the gulf state. with whom they are highlighted in syria i mean this is a this is a job disconcerting for them ok see we have seen their concern for democracy building eight and stating that america from what they ran down. to. chile to. chavez in venezuela to the sandinista civil rights were their sheep in the. i mean the undermining democracy whenever they don't like you can they support it or see it whenever they like it like this you put it this show if you can i mean this is this is all talk about democracy and human rights from the from the father and i did state is too stupid too he can use four words so one has to be ok he said i will go to my liking the you made the major release and give major void here on the national robert herbert i look at everything and i mean again the law of unintended consequences because united states is allied with well al-qaeda right now in syria

very interesting there i'm hugely no herbert go ahead in new york you heard in new york go ahead i'd be like i mean if the impossibility of trying to understand what is happening in the world occurs when you have a kind of left wing agenda of the kind of we just heard you talking about the palestinians for example keeping in mind that this area that we now call the palestinian area was once part of jordan it's not the one nine hundred sixty seven years really focus and i don't want to do that hollywood sign is really because we know there's probably sky i want to state i did serious i want to meet me syria ok and then i'll go. helene's even relieve some pollution with you know they can we should really reduce the care we're getting off topic really on me talk about you lying ok when you see lindsay going sorry i'll please love me no idea what you're saying ok so you can we stay with syria ok go ahead. name point

my point is sorry you can carry on well you might not point is that actually the unintended consequences of the war in iraq have been in marking into one to strengthen iran which was not what the americans intended when they went to war but actually it's been the consequence of overthrowing saddam hussein secondly to the help to trigger off the arab spring and now what you're finding is that the intervention in syria is very much related to those two things it's related to trying to weaken iran in the region whether iran is to attack directly first or whether syria is it seems to me that both of them are in the sights of of the united states and of and of their allies it's also an attempt to regain control of the region after the overthrow of pro western dictators in cheney's iraq and egypt

and that's what that's what libya was about that is what the intervention in syria is about and i would say can i say i found it quite incredible that herbert thinks the united states does have a right to tell the rest of the world what's true why i wouldn't dream of prague the way he's a shoo in to when jimmy illusions hiding statism you know are going on. in iran you know. these are very well. ok when she addressed a question to herbert herbert go ahead. i want to i want to tell you why garbage points number go ahead i never use the i never use the expression that the united states has a right i'm simply or exercising a somewhat different judgment that the united states has very often played a role in maintaining equilibrium but let me make another point about syria if i may be the opposition forces in syria i'm not at all clear it may be true that al qaeda is planning a role and it's not only al qaeda there are

a number of forces that represent the opposition in syria so when you're talking about the united states supporting al-qaeda the united states once they see forming i know they are working with and i'm not saying is that i don't know in syria i am side of i didn't say working with on the same side i said that the opposition forces in syria represent a number of different interests and it is not simply al-qaeda that's the only point that i'm making when you're talking about libya the result of the view remains uncertain we're not entirely clear about what the result will be so for the judgment to be made that we know exactly what has happened is not at all accurate ok joe now we know. the answer in the key call from getting we all got it and that's the only thing on this ng that wasn't in there in there john go ahead in brussels. where you see it's too easy also to speak of the west because the west is divided there's always been divided there the new conservative forces and the police forces and

a certain number of human hates people who want to wage war and create international law and destroy international but our people look way different opinion for example wilkerson who is the former head of chief of staff of colin powell's recently. i think on the news that we can say that he considered mcinnis completely completely seeing this idea of going to war with syria and there being the general mattis for example with the head of the central command has already said that they can kill is not feasible to have an intervention in syria because of the anti-missile defense of. their profession when i was also to be very careful about the news that are given by the western media about syria because there are lots of facts which you can prove have been for being demonstration in hama where somebody a know was there any county a few thousand people the two pictures and everything published them and the media reporting five hundred thousand people which are certain of those who announce that they have been a missile attack in the headquarter of the bad path in the mass and i have

a picture of somebody standing in front the next the we can newspaper printed the next day in front of those headquarter ensuring that the new search we say like and that was supporting an al-jazeera and old western media there are several examples of media lies about syria which would make a scare full about what we know about that count three we don't know much about that count three we have no right when you're younger you are hearing national committees against the healing the mission to me to me has majority of people in the world against that and that's what i want to defend her but you know one of the things that really bothers me is that i i agree with your concern about the outcome ok maybe how we get there maybe that's where we differ but you know when the united states or other western powers say assad must go it's pretty hard to backtrack a backtrack on that isn't it. i think it did indeed it is and as has been asserted just a moment ago when a point that i agree with is that the media by and large has not really represented

the issues very effectively by and large you do get a bias there and so i think it's very difficult to determine exactly what's going on but a good assertion to international law i regard as some are absurd and international law for whom the united states or for russia for iran's who is involved in international law and under what circumstances this is a nation of actually observed it's not at all clear and i mean what are we referring to whose international law is that the united nations is it nato what are we referring to in this i mean it's a kind of it is a russian or you mean these are a soldier who has almost no meaning i don't think he i don't know he that international noise. and i don't think he that you're about to commit a murder or the world the only question will be the unintended consequence is the question is whether he's going to go on up and he's clearly not legal to intervene in syria these no you and his regime and you don't really want to see him a solution and it won't be a u.n. resolution because the nato us very least it's only in his edition and in the case of libya and the russian china doesn't we don't want to be taken for hard once more

and there. lindsey please jump in here because well we exactly in the russians also have an interest in syria well i mean russia also doesn't want this lazy entire wages really do that i mean there is ok no one wants to see the whole region who love lindsey go ahead this and this whole question of who's international law or nato doesn't determine the international night i was an aggressive force which is increasingly. as a war there is a policy of international law which is against right which is weekends offensive war let this is absolutely clear since the second world war on the u.n. is also flat no but the truth is this this idea that somehow you can just make up is that we had this with tony blair into iraq we had it again over libya. as jones says the. the the resolution when we're told arise any action which people agreed to was far exceeded and ended in regime claims which

was not which was not the case so we have to look at this we also have to look at what is going on there and there is no way i'll give you an example of their own or more things was going on look afghanistan is a disaster everybody knows everybody knows this is not going to hold for twenty four thirty because the afghan soldiers who are supposed to be trained up to be the replacement for the americans and the british and so on are killing the american and british soldiers to british soldiers killed or killed this week over resolve things with every single one of these if you look onus was going on you have to say that a failure ok how afghanistan will be a man who is on what i want i want to be fair i don't care if i started this program by saying i want to be fair to everyone in time herbert you get the last word robert gets the last word go ahead ok well look let me just make one very simple point about international law i may when we talk about international law and

you refer of course in the united states being very much concerned about an iran with nuclear weapons having a profound influence on both the politics as well as the military affairs in the middle east the international law suggests in kissimmee corey self defense is a very appropriate law it is a law of international law and yet interestingly one thousand americans will make a bad what we talk about is violations of international law clearly there is a role israel is the only problem a quickly middle east would not mean you have to. use nearly went away to wipe a legitimate nation didn't even the weapons to be handsome to me that if you're talking about international law and be fair about your analysis all right for backing whom i really wish i was you know i mean this is am a very new definition of what crosstalk means thank you all very much many thanks and i get to be back in brussels new york in line. and thanks to our viewers watching it here i didn't see you next time and remember across top roles. which.

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