is war hope he journalism we. we will have to visit. something else. live from moscow this is our team in a moment it's crosstalk for now your headlines israeli tear gas sand stun grenades meet protesters across the palestinian territories and there have been reports of at least one person killed augustinian marking land day remembering six demonstrators who died during land a conversation over three decades ago. french police net around twenty suspected its limits in a series of raids in several cities around the country of course in the wake of the recent too loose killings while french presidential hopefuls are around part one

and see immigrant this is during their campaigns. and despite officially backing a u.n. sponsored peace plan for syria nato countries are still funding the rebels britain's promise to funnel additional aid to the opposition worth hundreds of thousands of pounds. for to my colleague bill daughters here in half an hour's time but for now a cross talk continues to dwell on the syrian issue how does the west still harbor plans for a foreign intervention in the country find out now. can . still. want to.

follow him and welcome across town peter about serious divides as the peace plan for syria gains international support worries remain it is only a lull before the civil war in the country resumes with greater intensity and violence on all sides does the west and its allies in the region still harbor plans for another humanitarian intervention. can. still. to cross not the new peace plan for syria i'm joined by herbert lunden in new york he is president emeritus of the hudson institute in brussels we go to jump mon he is a writer and author of humanitarian imperialism and in london we have lindsey german she is the convener of the british anti-war organization stop the war coalition right folks this is cross out of the news you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encouraged her but if i go to you first in new york what's your sense of kofi annan peace plan for syria is it a beginning or is it

a dead end post probably a dead end largely because the civil war is likely to go on saddam has engaged in murderous activities thousands of people have lost their lives it's a terrible situation the problem however is what is the aftermath if in fact assad is deposed what actually occurs is the muslim brotherhood that takes over and yet they get yet another foot have put a lock in and that part of the world or in fact as do the democratic forces emerge there are a lot of competing interests russia obviously has a warm water port in syria and would like to see. see the recantation the other side you have the chinese playing a role there as well so it's a very very complicated situation where senator mccain has called for military action on the part of the united states and its allies and i doubt very much whether that will occur in large part because we are very much concerned about what happens after assad if indeed there is an after assad ok here and i'm glad you're thinking about the aftermath because that's what i always think about when you see if i can go to you i mean the peace process there if we can be called

a peace process it least there is the interest to get the indigenous parties on the ground or start talking it may be too late but a lot of people would say and myself included it's never too late to try to talk but as the civil war rages on and i'd like to also point out to react to her body russia is also interested in international law let's keep libby in mind so go ahead lisa lindsay go ahead thing about lindsey go right ahead for all i feel i think the the problem here is that the intervention is already under while you can't really look at what's happening in syria without looking at all sorts of things that have happened in recent months the attempts to broker one the opposition force with the syrian national council which has happened this week being various attempts at sanctions which you've made the covert intervention on the ground. against the syrian army and they can stand side and i think i think the real problem here i

don't think the kofi annan peace process is going to be at all effective for i really my real for in strong feeling is this is not something that is the business of the united states britain and the other western powers when we talk about all of the math in syria we should remember we do have something to close by we've seen what's happened in iraq we've seen what's happened in afghanistan these have been disasters by any standards and the idea libya which was only last year. which is perhaps the most directly comparable you see fantastic levels of corruption of destruction of the country the idea of democracy and progress that really very very far from being achieved what's been achieved this regime claimed it is not the business of the united states or anybody else to effect free regime face the only people who should be able to do this is the people of the country themselves occasion referring to you in brussels here lindsay's already hold on what's going

it's going to be let's go to brussels first ok lindsay says an intervention has already started so maybe the peace plan is really just kind of a piece it's a piece of paper i mean there is an intention it is an intention and we we've already heard from hillary clinton the u.s. secretary of state she doesn't care what assad has to say she cares about what he does and if he doesn't do what she wants then regime change is still in the cards go ahead. here's where i think first of all you have to put that in a broader context i think there's been a sort of madness that has taken over a certain number of western elites after the fall of the wall and a victory in the cold war sort of this innocent success which has given the ideas of who they lead the whole framework of international law which has kept sort of peace after world war two unless a big is actually on the lessons of world war two namely the framework of the united nations the united nations charter the equality of all nations the servant

equal servant your full nation was something to be put in the dustbin of history and they have started that in yugoslavia they have continued in afghanistan in iraq in libya in somalia it's accra and they are spread disaster after disaster in my opinion and of course like all invaders they provide the they provoke a counter force and now the approval to counter force which seems to exist in syria which is done these are the resistance of the hands of russia and china today of germany in a lot of latin america today of germany dues and i think they will meet resistance and eventually they'll be blocked like they will grow can get like israel has been blocked by hezbollah in lebanon and this is maybe the endgame for the humanitarian intervention is not a thing that's a very good thing because we'll go back to more stable world based on the international law negotiation and not the unifil use of force by the people who self proclaimed themselves defenders of human rights and i think it's fitting

actually that with the polian hitler were stopped by russia and now it's in the question are you stopping him and things are in a it's really ok herbalife are you smiling what kind of smile is there going well i'm smiling because it's a rather produced view of recent history in fact it was not international law or the united nations to maintain equilibrium after world war two it was the united states navy if you're talking about the relative peace that we've had in the world we've had relative peace because of us. intervention you might call it imperialism i would call it a part of the role that the united states is playing in maintaining a balance on the world see the disc is really a role he's not in this room is what he says yes also cruising the ice and with your hands in the lays the united states plays a very significant role in maintaining the kind of peace that you would like to see even in iraq i mean this is your focus this is it was real how close are you know in the middle there i suppose liaison plays herbert opened up a can of worms here lyndsey you first go ahead. we the problem is if you talk to

most iraqis and after all many iraqis at the time of saddam hussein many of them all should be intervention because this would get rid of it it's a trend that was what they wanted virtually nobody in iraq will say that the thing has been a success it's been a loss of failure the troops had to leave the british troops there several years ago the american troops have now left for the most part of that country and they've got a totally broken country they are now quite incredibly trying to do the same again both in syria and in my view even more dangerously in the wrong and you know you have to recognize that this view. of the whole of world peace has been the americans is olds with what millions of people around the world really think and it's not an accurate description of the end of the second world war it's not unlike europe description of the post-war period where america was involved in the most bloody and damaging war in vietnam virtually nobody to friends that war today and

he has played an absolutely destructive role in the middle east backing dictators going in to get resources under this still but is still perhaps dictators others from the the arab league and the gulf cooperation council are composed of people who are very quick to attack because after you were asked who are perfectly happy to repress their own people using western arms to do so ok zhang in brussels you want to react usually international history because russia is just explaining where to begin with you for the program starting a state fair time for everyone john go ahead you have to count the millions of the in the american intervention in. southeast asia in southern africa india the embargo against iraq interventions. and you're also to take into account the overthrow of myself because a democratic leader of. which started all the terrible history of you and they were

the scenes the overthrow of our brains in guatemala which. we blocked the week reforms in latin america over to a value india which is another way to look away from what they're doing now which. they've been blocking reformist and democratic reform that's everywhere they could we have out there. with those reforms so it seems to me that the united states has been quite the opposite of. maintaining peace because in the main the east that we laser would they take the bay waging war and then they plea right will come here and again it's early early let me just let me jump in here but i want to tell the base support for israel in the middle east which is going to mean ok we'll know our fact we're getting our fanatically was getting a little half done if your legs were getting a little off herbert what is the west's interest in syria and we keep reading this all the time what is the interest what is it another word for iran i don't think

that the west has any specific interest in syria except that a defeat of assad would also be a defeat of iran it's interesting that in the conversations that take place with the united states seeing the villain in this interpretation of this rather naive interpretation of history iran hasn't been mentioned nor has of course nine eleven been mentioned the united states was attacked on nine eleven we responded to that attack but let me let me go on if i may the the interesting to see that you responded to seeing the result he believes in syria at the end those murderous activities have gone on for months per year if not longer now it seems to me that the united states is acting out of humanitarian desire to see this in this does not mean that we will engage in direct military intervention as i suggested despite the fact that senator mccain and others have suggested we do so so i think it's perfectly clear that we have an interest in seeing assad ousted we also have an interest in seeing stability occur after. it's rude how that stability will occur

remains to be seen will it be a democratic will there be democratic impulses i doubt it the muslim brotherhood is well organized to take control of the country ok maybe. they will be worried his army military police a little bit of order here is what i need what have you to speak to listen i'm not really what if the muslim brotherhood does come to power in syria democratically then we have to accept the outcome right herbert exactly and this is really the matter is hope but what are you saying is you don't like the current government in syria but potentially feature government in syria and other was this isn't about some not to say it's not about what the syrian people themselves well it's about what the americans were and i'm not it's not acceptable and people who say no that's now we heard the nine eleven look let me go in there you made three thousand three thousand feet i'm going to jump in here i'm going to how do i sure are a comment and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the situation in syria straight talking.

you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so bleak you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else and you hear or see some other part of it and realize that everything is art you you don't know i'm tom harvey welcome to the big show. me leave.

you to. the location of a story. going to the summit. of the a welcome back to crossfire i'm about to remind you we're talking about the possible outcome of the syrian peace plan. the education system the soon. ok i want to go back to brussels so i think if i were to rename this program from cross talk i would call it the law of unintended consequences because that's what this program has been about for about a year now looking at the arab spring what is the law of unintended consequences

going out going on now in syria with western backing of these various opposition groups and very murky and when i should point out that human rights watch and other human rights groups are saying the opposition is could be committing atrocities as well so i mean the good guy bad guy thing is very unclear go right ahead. first of all you have to be fair about who he said backing whom history did not start on nine eleven two thousand and one when bin laden was justifying nine eleven we say we thank you because the attackers and you have been attacking us for eighty years in palestine by the colonization of by these things you never forget that and this report will rest on this position of the palestinians from their lands i mean that's a major crime that is not forgetting the path of the world their interventions all over the place if the u.s. is so concerned with democracy weighed only preaching to the saudi friends of the gulf states. with whom they are highlighted in syria i mean this is the this is a joke this concern for the locals here we are seeing the concern for democracy rating agencies in like america from guatemala and there to. chile to.

chavez in venezuela to this and didn't live up to a little sheep in the cargo it's a car i mean they undermine democracy whenever they don't like it in the soup or the it actually whenever they like it like this book at the show if you can i mean this is this is all talk about democracy and human rights from the from the other thing i did this is too stupid too he can use four words so one has to be ok he said i'm going to be monitoring the e-mail you made your voice to get a major voice be heard on my shirt heard i'm not going to renew your i mean again the law of unintended consequences because united states is allied with well al qaeda right now in syria that could have a very it was a very subtle game who clean no herbert go ahead in new york you heard in new york i had the luck i mean the possibility of trying to understand what is happening in the world occurs when you have a kind of left wing agenda of the kind of we just heard you talking about the palestinians for example people in this area that we now call the palestinian area

was once part of jordan it's not on one nine hundred sixty seven years really focus and i don't want to you know how this time is really because i don't there's probably a scar i want to state i did serious i'm going to let me use syria and then i'll go . lindsey with some polish of the year you have again we shall really reduce calorie clear we're getting off topic really all of the meat of what you're saying ok you see lindsay going sorry i please love me my dear what you say ok. can we stay with syria ok go ahead well name point my hamlet and my point is sorry you can carry on while mine my point is that actually the unintended consequences of the war in iraq have been in marketing in truth all along to strengthen iran which was not what the americans intended when they went to war but

actually it's been the consequence of overthrowing saddam hussein secondly to the help to trigger off the arab spring and now what you're finding is that the intervention in syria is very much related to those two things it's related to trying to weaken iran in the region whether iran is the rectory first or whether syria is it seems to me that both of them are in the sights of of the united states and of and of their allies is also an attempt to regain control of the region after the overthrow of progress and dictators in tunisia and egypt and that's what that's what libya was about that is what the intervention in syria is about and i would say again i find it quite incredible that herbert thinks the united states does have a right to tell the rest of the world what to do why i wouldn't dream of rockaway i didn't seem to mention

a illusions i mean this case is really going on. around the world. these are very. ok when she addressed a question to herbert herbert go ahead. i want to i want to tell you i care because points number go ahead i never use the i never used the expression that the united states has a right i'm simply or exercising a somewhat different judgment at the united states has very often played a role in maintaining equilibrium but let me make another point about syria if i may be the opposition forces in syria are not at all clear it may be true that al-qaeda is playing a role and it's not only al-qaeda there are a number of forces that represent the opposition in syria so when you're talking about the united states supporting al-qaeda the united states and sleezy torquing i mean they are working with the mysteries that i don't know in syria i am side of i didn't say working with on the same side i said that the opposition forces in syria represent a number of different interests and it is not simply al-qaeda that's the only point

that i'm making when you're talking about libya the result of the view remains uncertain we're not entirely clear about what the result will be so for the judgment to be made that we know exactly what has happened is not at all accurate ok john kerry now do we know the answer in the caves apart from getting we all got in that that's the only thing on this ng that really wasn't going anywhere john go ahead and brussels. you see it's too easy also to speak of the west because the west is the very idea has always been divided there are the neo conservative forces and the police forces and a certain number of human rights people who want to wage war and create international law and destroy their national but there are people who are quite different opinion for example wilkerson who was the former head of chief of staff of colin powell's said recently. i think on the news that he said that he considered mccain as completely completely insane this idea of going to war with

syria and there being the general mattis for example with the head of the central command has already said that technically it's not feasible to have an intervention in syria because of the anti-missile defense of. when i was also to be very careful about the news that are given by the western media about syria because there are a lot of facts which you can prove have been for as they have been demonstration in hama where somebody a knew was there and he counted a few thousand people he took pictures and everything published them and the media reported five hundred thousand people which are certain to those who announce that they're being a missile attack in the headquarters of the bad party in the manson either a picture of somebody standing in front the next day with the newspaper printed the next day in front of those headquarter and showing that you know such we say like and that was reported on al-jazeera and all the western media there are several examples of media lies about syria which would make us care full about what we know about the kountry we don't know much about the kountry we have to move

a corner of your brain here national communities again that hearing their mission to me to me has much greater people in the world against that and that's what i want to defend her but you know one of the things that really bothers me is that i i agree with your concern about the outcome ok maybe how we get there maybe it will be different but you know when the united states or other western powers say assad must go it's pretty hard to backtrack a backtrack on that isn't it. i think it did indeed it is and as has been asserted just a moment ago when our point that i agree with is that the media by and large has not really represented the issues very effectively by and large you do get a bias there and so i think it's very difficult to determine exactly what's going on but the good the search into international law i regard as somewhat absurd i mean international law to whom through the united states or russia or iran's who is involved in international law and under what circumstances there is a notion of actually observed it's not at all clear and i mean what are we referring to whose international law is it the united nations is it nato what are

we referring to this was a kind of is it is or should know or you don't mean these are very small to it's also not mean i don't think he i don't know he that the international noise for god and i don't think he that you're about to commit the murder all worldly the only question would be the unintended consequence is the question is whether this can go on not that he's clearly not legal can intervene in syria these new u.n. resolution and the only one is with his regime and they won't be you and his addition because they need to us violated its own you and his addition in the case of libya and of russia and china doesn't we don't want to be taken for one swallow and. lindsey please jump in here because well when we exactly and the russians also have an interest in syria well i mean russia also doesn't want to play the entire what is really there is ok no one wants to see the whole region lulu up and lindsey go ahead this this whole question of who's international law or nato doesn't determine international night i was an aggressive force which is increasingly very

insistent in faith as a war there is a multi of international law which is against regime which is against offensive war but this is absolutely clear since the second most on the u.n. is part of that now but the truth is this this idea that somehow you can just make up is that the war we had this with there in. iraq we had it again over libya. as jones says the the the the resolution whent with all of her eyes any action which people agree was far exceeded and ended in regime change which was not which was not the case so we have to look at this we also have to look at what is going on here and there is no way i'll give you an example of the one or more of these wars going on look afghanistan is a disaster everybody not everybody knows this is not going to hold for twenty forty because the afghan soldiers who are supposed to be the replacement for the

americans and the british and so on are killing the american empire so to see british soldiers killed or killed this week over a result things which every single one of these if you look only stay above is going on you have to say they are a failure ok how can a stanley apply directly to the americans on their larry said what i want i want to be fair i don't care what i think are going to throw around by saying i want to be fair to everyone in time herbert you get the last word herbert gets the last word go ahead ok well look let me just make one very simple point about international law if i may when we talk about international law and you refer of course in the united states being very much concerned about an iran with nuclear weapons having a profound influence on both the politics as well as the military affairs in the middle east international law suggests implicitly tory sock defense is a very appropriate law it is a war of international law and yet interestingly enough about as no one has really good bad all we talk about is violations of international law clearly there is

a role israel is the only economically claim it really is going to. use nearly went away and why a legitimate nation didn't need the weapons in the hands of me that if you're talking about international law to be fair about your analysis all right thanking whom i mean the reason i was you here in this is am a very new i definition of what crosstalk means thank you all very much many thanks my guest today in brussels new york and in line. and thanks to our viewers watching it here you can see you next time and remember crossed our polls. and you can see.

please. lend lease or. legal lease little.